A clue to Taim

[OptimusPrime]

The thing about it is... if I had said in book 6 that Dashiva was Osan'gar was Aginor, people would have said "Hes dead" and Id reply with "Ishamael says the Great Lord could bring Ilyena back in EotW prologue" and people would have without a doubt quoted RJs famous "You believe Ishamael? Come on!" line, simply because there had been no great reason to think the dead could be raised in any way other than "the words of a madman." I think shapechanging has more hints pointing at it than reincarnation did before that happened.

If you had said that during book 6, a more likely response would be "who the hell is Dashiva? And are you sure Osan'gar isn't Balthamel?" Given that the resurrection of two Chosen was made quite clear in the prologue to said book, and Dashiva wasn't introduced until ACoS. And Aginor did hint in EotW that he and Balthamel could be given new bodies. Just so you know.

 

 

Just so I know... for what reason? So the odd hint that I didnt notice, big deal. I still think there have been enough hints for appearance altering.

That's a terrible example because it doesn't make sense for the reasons he pointed out.

Now, I've explained to you a page back that shape-changing isn't possible with the TP - the Saa being the exception (but they compare to slowing from use of the OP rather than physical shapechanging).

 

Ive raised points since that post Lacanos.

 

Its alright, it is an insane theory and probably is wrong. Im just not putting it in the pile of definite writeoffs yet. Ive had a hunch that Taim is Moridin for a while now.

[JakeBarnes]

Your sig is wrong.  Ishamael died in TDR when Rand Callandor'd him.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Can the dark one take bodies from one of the different reflections of Randland?

[OptimusPrime]

Your sig is wrong.  Ishamael died in TDR when Rand Callandor'd him.

 

Hahaha thanks. Damn it I should stop with these theories

[FarShainMael]

No reason for anyone sworn to the DO to just hold on to it and plenty more for them to just break it immediately after coming into possession of it.

Unless you think Taim was actually trying to help Rand by giving him the Seal.

 

Unless the DO or Ishy gave orders that the seals were not to be broken piecemeal. Both the DO and Ishy are intersted in total victory not a marginal victory. Further, the Chosen (especially Ishy) know that breaking some of the seals but not all would increase the DO's influence in the World but not totally free him from his prison. The DO and Ishy are playing for a total victory not one in which the forces of Darkness win but the DO is not freed.

 

How would breaking the Seals and completely releasing the DO be considered a 'marginal victory'?  ???

 

Simple. In the long-run (i.e about 2 years at most), all the seals will have been broken by the DO anyway. Therefore, they might think it worth forgoing breaking 1 seal in the short run to get someone close to Rand.

Heck, they might even have given him that seal to see if they can use it to find out where the others were being stored - seeing Bashere looking after it for Rand in this case.

 

A thought.. Are we sure that the seal Taim gave Rand was genuine?

 

 

I took this thought away and did some work on it, and came up with the following. Going right back to tFoH, when Nynaeve, Elayne, Thom, and Juilin are travelling across Tarabon from Tanchico, heading for Tar Valon. They camp a mile away from Mardecin. Then:

 

tFoH Ch9 'A Signal'

 

Sometimes when Nyn was near the seal, she thinks she can feel the Dark One trying to break through.

 

Much later:

 

tFoH Ch48 'Leavetakings'

 

As Nynaeve picks up the purse containing the seal, 'Evil seemed to bathe her hand, stronger than ever, as if the DO really was trying to break through the cuendillar seal inside'. She tries to tell herself it is her imagination.

 

When they reach Salidar:

 

tFoH Ch 50 'To teach and learn'

 

That seal is now broken. Elayne says it had felt filthy, evil. When Carlinya has N and E hold a piece to describe the feeling, they find that it has now gone.

 

Later still in LoC:

 

(LoC Ch2, 'A new arrival')

When Taim brings Rand the intact seal, Rand handles the rag-wrapped disc, feels the hard shape, unwraps it and notes the 'hard slickness' of cuendillar, but was sure it would break like porcelain - but does not mention the evil feeling.

 

Is that seal genuine..?

 

[papertiger]

I suppose it comes down to Rand's certainty that the seal would break like porcelain. If that's the case then it can't be fake because of the nature of cuendillar. Can't remember if Rand's held any of the other seals for an extended period of time or not. Moiraine was generally protective of them.

 

As for the other seal, Nynaeve's always been intuitive and I bet Elayne was just trying to fit in. 

[Sharaman]

Why would the Shadow try to steal it from Bashere if it wasn't genuine?

 

[Lacanos]

Why would the Shadow try to steal it from Bashere if it wasn't genuine?

 

I personally never doubted it was genuine. They were trying to find out where he kept the seals, and the best way to do that is to give him one and see what he does with it.

[FarShainMael]

I suppose it comes down to Rand's certainty that the seal would break like porcelain. If that's the case then it can't be fake because of the nature of cuendillar. Can't remember if Rand's held any of the other seals for an extended period of time or not. Moiraine was generally protective of them.

 

As for the other seal, Nynaeve's always been intuitive and I bet Elayne was just trying to fit in.  

 

I believe the TP can affect cuendillar. (Check?)** If there is indeed a Moridin - Taim connection, M could have made a fake seal and weakened it with the TP.

 

**Ah yes - http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Cuendillar

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Why would the Shadow try to steal it from Bashere if it wasn't genuine?

 

 

I can' find this one for the moment, perhaps you could point me in the right direction - and do we have independent confirmation (ie not from Bashere, who may be a DF) that there was such an attempt?

 

Update: Right, it's in CoT.

 

Prologue: Deira tells Bashere that she surprised two men ransacking their tent and fought them off, receiving a knife wound in the process, for which she is being treated while they talk (ie listeners present). The two thieves were later found dead, killed almost professionally, so they cannot be made to talk.

 

Then, later in Ch24, Bashere tells Rand about the attack. Now here's an interesting bit.. Bashere says that one of the thieves was 'carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items'.' That note wasn't mentioned earlier AFAIK.. if there was one, perhaps Bashere did write it!

 

 

[papertiger]

TP can affect cuendillar but from what we've seen it takes millenia, so unless Ishamael was really thinking ahead then it's probably safe to say the seal's genuine. Again, someone had the idea that the Shadow gave the seal to Taim as a way of gaining Rand's trust--never thinking he'd actually break it until later in the game--then realized what Fel had discovered and tried to get it back. Wouldn't be the first poor decision by the bad guys.

[FarShainMael]

Not sure about the time needed, can you supply a reference?

 

[papertiger]

Um...the fact that the DO's been imprisoned behind those seals for about 3,000 years and they're just now starting to become fragile?

[FarShainMael]

Good point, if he was indeed using the TP on them. It's difficult, though, to see how he could affect eg. the seal in Nyn's possession and break it with the TP without a local agent, and there's been no sign of Moridin hanging around.

 

[Lacanos]

Good point, if he was indeed using the TP on them. It's difficult, though, to see how he could affect eg. the seal in Nyn's possession and break it with the TP without a local agent, and there's been no sign of Moridin hanging around.

 

Mainly because that's not the seal, that's the focus point for the seal.

He's attacking the actual weaves holding his prison shut, the cuendillar focus points then become weaker to indicate the weave weakening

[OptimusPrime]

Also, Im pretty sure Brandon has said that cuendillar can be destroyed by the True Power. Maybe channeling the True Power is related to the weakening of the Seals somehow?

[FarShainMael]

I think I'll take this to the Q&A thread. Get back to you folks.

 

In the meantime, and back to Taim: The seal/FP he gave Rand may or may not have been genuine, and may have been given to Rand to encourage trust. The later attempt at theft may have been to allow Bashere (who I think may be at least in cahoots with Taim) to take back the seal/FP if it was genuine, or to retrieve it before it could be shown to be fake.

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think I'll take this to the Q&A thread. Get back to you folks.

 

In the meantime, and back to Taim: The seal/FP he gave Rand may or may not have been genuine, and may have been given to Rand to encourage trust. The later attempt at theft may have been to allow Bashere (who I think may be at least in cahoots with Taim) to take back the seal/FP if it was genuine, or to retrieve it before it could be shown to be fake.

 

 

 

If Bashere and Taim are in cohoots, why did Bashere doubt it was Taim at his arrival?

 

Hey both are know by their surname thats a pretty good sigh they are both Darkguys.

[Lironah]

I wonder if Taim (this is assuming that he was at least a DF when Rand met him) gave him the seal as part of a plan to find out where Rand had hidden any others he had?

[FarShainMael]

I think I'll take this to the Q&A thread. Get back to you folks.

 

In the meantime, and back to Taim: The seal/FP he gave Rand may or may not have been genuine, and may have been given to Rand to encourage trust. The later attempt at theft may have been to allow Bashere (who I think may be at least in cahoots with Taim) to take back the seal/FP if it was genuine, or to retrieve it before it could be shown to be fake.

 

 

 

If Bashere and Taim are in cohoots, why did Bashere {appear to} doubt it was Taim at his arrival?

 

Errrrrrrm.. to put Rand off their scent maybe.............?

 

I inserted the words in {} because the account of that meeting is from Rand's PoV:

 

'He (Bashere) sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion.'

 

@Lironah: yes, that's also quite likely.

 

[papertiger]

Just found this article on the 13th Depository. It says that the Domination Band was in fact made of cuendillar. So apparently the stuff can be weakened with the TP.

 

Male a’dam

 

Also called a Domination Band, this ter’angreal consists of two jointed bracelets of dull black metal and a wide collar. All three are made of cuendillar. A female channeller touching either bracelets or collar feels old and sharp pain, sorrow and suffering (The Shadow Rising, Need, and Into the Palace).

 

The male a’dam was made during the Breaking (The Gathering Storm, The Last That Could Be Done). Presumably, women tried to make a device that would enable them to control male channellers despite the taint. Making them from cuendillar ensured their unbreakability.

 

Here's the link: http://13depository.blogspot.com/search/label/Ter'angreal%20and%20Allied%20Items

[Luckers]

Linda is actually making something of an assumption there. Whilst more than possible it's still not certain that the copies of the original Domination Band were also made into cuendillar. I'd say it's probably likely--but not certain.

 

That being said Brandon has confirmed that the True Power can destroy cuendillar--which we sort of knew anyway. The True Power is the power of the Dark One, and the Dark One broke the seals. He also said that there is another way to destroy cuendillar--which makes sense when you think about it. It's said that channeling at cuendillar only makes it stronger--yet how can something unbreakable be made stronger? The obvious answer is that channeling makes cuendillar more resistant to this other method of destroying it (as no one was aware the True Power could do so).

[algspkr]

Linda is actually making something of an assumption there. Whilst more than possible it's still not certain that the copies of the original Domination Band were also made into cuendillar. I'd say it's probably likely--but not certain.

 

That being said Brandon has confirmed that the True Power can destroy cuendillar--which we sort of knew anyway. The True Power is the power of the Dark One, and the Dark One broke the seals. He also said that there is another way to destroy cuendillar--which makes sense when you think about it. It's said that channeling at cuendillar only makes it stronger--yet how can something unbreakable be made stronger? The obvious answer is that channeling makes cuendillar more resistant to this other method of destroying it (as no one was aware the True Power could do so).

 

I've always pictured cuendillar as becoming stronger when energy is added, and so it seemed logical to me that removing energy from it would weaken it.  If you get it close enough to absolute zero it becomes fragile.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think I'll take this to the Q&A thread. Get back to you folks.

 

In the meantime, and back to Taim: The seal/FP he gave Rand may or may not have been genuine, and may have been given to Rand to encourage trust. The later attempt at theft may have been to allow Bashere (who I think may be at least in cahoots with Taim) to take back the seal/FP if it was genuine, or to retrieve it before it could be shown to be fake.

 

 

 

If Bashere and Taim are in cohoots, why did Bashere {appear to} doubt it was Taim at his arrival?

 

Errrrrrrm.. to put Rand off their scent maybe.............?

 

I inserted the words in {} because the account of that meeting is from Rand's PoV:

 

'He (Bashere) sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion.'

 

@Lironah: yes, that's also quite likely.

 

 

What use would it be to them, Bashere and Taim, to bu doubt on whether this was really Taim. When TAim starts acting the maggot Rand might recall the first meeting and how Bashere acting to Taims appearance and put a doubt in his mind if it was Taim and he might then kick his arse thus getting rid of a shadow spy in Rands organisation after going through such effort to ingrate him in Rands good books and gave away a seal.

[FarShainMael]

No, you misunderstand me. I think they were trying to establish in Rand's mind an impression that they did not know each other very well, not casting doubt on Taim's identity. Whereas in fact - if I'm right in my suspicions of those two - they've been working together very closely for years.