Was that really Graendel?

[MikeRiley]

It's been a while now since I've read the book and it'll be even longer before I get to it again. I can't remember if we were given real evidence that Graendel really was in the palace that Rand balefired. We know he believed her to be there and used Ramshalan as a test. There was compulsion done on him which was erased with the balefire shortly after.

 

My thought here is that it might not have been Graendel. Again, I'm basing this off the idea that we don't know.. I could be entirely wrong here. Anyway, the crystal throne in Seandar is currently unclaimed. One of the forsaken could easily have gone over and taken it. Something like this would be seen as an amusing souvenir for Graendel, or as a good tool for another forsaken.

 

The crystal throne inspires awe in those facing the one who sits on it. To me this sounds like a form of compulsion. Could it be possible that the throne was moved and a non-channeler was being used as a proxy while using the throne's ability to compel those that come before it?

 

So Forsaken compels Lady, Lady sits on the throne and compels everybody else. It then looks like Graendel is there, and Forsaken's place is quietly secured unless Graendel realizes what's going on. When Ramshalan goes before the throne, he is compelled with the throne's properties to return to Rand with his message, then Rand balefires the palace, erasing the throne. It wouldn't require the presence of an actual forsaken, just orders given in advance to the one on the throne.

 

It would mean we haven't seen the last of Graendel, who Rand believes is now dead. This would give her a significant advantage if her spies hear that she's considered dead. Word would get around enough that she'd hear of it at some point.

[TheBeerPatriot]

Hmmm, interesting theory.  I think if the Crystal Throne was to be invoked that Graendal's POV would have mentioned an interest in Seanchan prior to that episode at Natrin's Barrow.  Plus, that was Semirhage's sphere of influence prior to her capture and I doubt Graendal would have taken an interest in Seanchan during that timeframe.

 

Having said that, I don't believe we've seen the last of Graendal.  It doesn't make sense that we've had extensive buildup of her character, only to have her death take place off-screen.  While there are indications that the chronology of ToM will overlap TGS a bit, I'd be surprised to be reading of Graendal's death early in ToM.  I think she still has a big role to play in the remainder of the series, unlike Semirhage whose time had come.

[OptimusPrime]

Having said that, I don't believe we've seen the last of Graendal.  It doesn't make sense that we've had extensive buildup of her character, only to have her death take place off-screen.  While there are indications that the chronology of ToM will overlap TGS a bit, I'd be surprised to be reading of Graendal's death early in ToM.  I think she still has a big role to play in the remainder of the series, unlike Semirhage whose time had come.

 

Agreed 100%. I didnt believe she died for a second. I think Rands plan was very... Dark Rand, and I love everything about that scene and Rands reasoning (also, Nynaeve became my favorite Wheel of Time female due to the way she reacted to that incedent) but there was something odd about the scene; to be more precise, there was something odd about Ramshalan. Rand thought he was being clever by not telling him the real deal, but he was incredibly naiive to think he could send anyone knowing hes waiting outside, without Graendal learning of it. And when she learned he was outside, she decides the best way to put Rand off is to make him think he killed her. Im not convinced that Nynaeve is clever enough to figure out something was wrong in the short time Rand gave her.

 

I doubt that the Crystal Throne was involved, but that doubt is on the same level as a hunch would be.

[moroten]

Having said that, I don't believe we've seen the last of Graendal.  It doesn't make sense that we've had extensive buildup of her character, only to have her death take place off-screen.  While there are indications that the chronology of ToM will overlap TGS a bit, I'd be surprised to be reading of Graendal's death early in ToM.  I think she still has a big role to play in the remainder of the series, unlike Semirhage whose time had come.

 

Agreed 100%. I didnt believe she died for a second. I think Rands plan was very... Dark Rand, and I love everything about that scene and Rands reasoning (also, Nynaeve became my favorite Wheel of Time female due to the way she reacted to that incedent) but there was something odd about the scene; to be more precise, there was something odd about Ramshalan. Rand thought he was being clever by not telling him the real deal, but he was incredibly naiive to think he could send anyone knowing hes waiting outside, without Graendal learning of it. And when she learned he was outside, she decides the best way to put Rand off is to make him think he killed her. Im not convinced that Nynaeve is clever enough to figure out something was wrong in the short time Rand gave her.

 

I doubt that the Crystal Throne was involved, but that doubt is on the same level as a hunch would be.

 

He wanted her to think of him as naive, he wanted her to underestimate him so thats why he planted the entire conversation in Ramshalan to give Graendel a false sense of security.

[OptimusPrime]

Having said that, I don't believe we've seen the last of Graendal.  It doesn't make sense that we've had extensive buildup of her character, only to have her death take place off-screen.  While there are indications that the chronology of ToM will overlap TGS a bit, I'd be surprised to be reading of Graendal's death early in ToM.  I think she still has a big role to play in the remainder of the series, unlike Semirhage whose time had come.

 

Agreed 100%. I didnt believe she died for a second. I think Rands plan was very... Dark Rand, and I love everything about that scene and Rands reasoning (also, Nynaeve became my favorite Wheel of Time female due to the way she reacted to that incedent) but there was something odd about the scene; to be more precise, there was something odd about Ramshalan. Rand thought he was being clever by not telling him the real deal, but he was incredibly naiive to think he could send anyone knowing hes waiting outside, without Graendal learning of it. And when she learned he was outside, she decides the best way to put Rand off is to make him think he killed her. Im not convinced that Nynaeve is clever enough to figure out something was wrong in the short time Rand gave her.

 

I doubt that the Crystal Throne was involved, but that doubt is on the same level as a hunch would be.

 

He wanted her to think of him as naive, he wanted her to underestimate him so thats why he planted the entire conversation in Ramshalan to give Graendel a false sense of security.

 

Yet I think Graendal is clever enough to see whats going on. I'll go into detail on what I think her train of thought would have been.

 

"So, an emmisary from the Dragon Reborn arrived, and my Compulsion made him talk. I learned that the Dragon was actually holding a gateway open for this emissary despite having sent the emmissary to a mere local noble. The first thought, of course, is that the Dragon knows I am here; it is too coincedental for him to be holding a gateway open outside my house. Besides that, the Compelled emmissary spoke of al'Thor ranting about fighting an enemy that is "smarter" than him, and that al'Thor picked this emmissary to help him do that, and immediately he comes here, with a gateway held open. The conclusion? I am supposed to know he is here, but the emmissary doesnt know who I am. Am I supposed to know that he knows Im here? Of course I am! Its like an invitation to my own game! Whatever his plan is-because he obviously DOES have a plan-his next decision will be based solely on the state of Ramshalan when he returns. He knows Im smarter than him and that I wont confront him, the Compelled emmissary told me that, so hes likely to not give me chance to act once he finds a clue from Ramshalan. How on earth do I get out of this? The solution is simple. I provoke him, and if he attacks, I make him think hes killed me."

 

I am as certain as can be without knowing. Its just too... I dunno... easy to figure out, from her PoV? Rands plan fit him incredibly well and it was indeed a cunning plan. But her intelligence I think is not exaggerated, considering that even Moridin notes her observational skills. Im not going to go on a wild speculation mission here but there are already plenty of ways for the Compulsion/whatever dissappear on time without the channeler dying.

 

Suddenly, I am reminded of the Ashaman that summoned Graendal to Moridin at the start.

 

I cant click Post without putting that Graendal is no doubt strong enough to weave a gateway and maintain Compulsion rather than tie it off. But that comment involves speculation that Compulsion can be maintained instead of just put in place.

[TheBeerPatriot]

Yet I think Graendal is clever enough to see whats going on. I'll go into detail on what I think her train of thought would have been.

 

"So, an emmisary from the Dragon Reborn arrived, and my Compulsion made him talk. I learned that the Dragon was actually holding a gateway open for this emissary despite having sent the emmissary to a mere local noble. The first thought, of course, is that the Dragon knows I am here; it is too coincedental for him to be holding a gateway open outside my house. Besides that, the Compelled emmissary spoke of al'Thor ranting about fighting an enemy that is "smarter" than him, and that al'Thor picked this emmissary to help him do that, and immediately he comes here, with a gateway held open. The conclusion? I am supposed to know he is here, but the emmissary doesnt know who I am. Am I supposed to know that he knows Im here? Of course I am! Its like an invitation to my own game! Whatever his plan is-because he obviously DOES have a plan-his next decision will be based solely on the state of Ramshalan when he returns. He knows Im smarter than him and that I wont confront him, the Compelled emmissary told me that, so hes likely to not give me chance to act once he finds a clue from Ramshalan. How on earth do I get out of this? The solution is simple. I provoke him, and if he attacks, I make him think hes killed me."

It would have been easy for Graendal to glean from Ramshalan that Rand was awaiting his return to confirm Graendal's presence.  As Drekka pointed out, Graendal would definitely have Compulsed the necessary info from Ramshalan to warn her of Rand's impending attack. 

 

I look forward to reading more of Graendal ;)

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think she is dead and I agree it was a waste to kill her like that, one of the forsaken that we seen most of. The reason I think she is dead is because the next book is probably going to be focused on Mat and Perrin and maybe Lan and Elayne and Avi. So maybe not much Rand and Rand is the one character who comes into contact with the forsaken the most so unless we just get a POV from Graendal or see her at a forsaken tea party I cant see her in the next book.

If this is the case she might turn up in the last book but there is going to be so much going on that having her seemily come back only to probably die again would be pointless and again a waste.

Your thoughts on how she would avoid death are well thought out and fit her and all but I just cant see her coming back maybe earlier in the series.

[Sharaman]

The CT is not necessary for a scenario where Graendal realises that Ramshalam is a tethered goat.

She could put on compulsion, interrogate him, take off the compulsion and get a pet female channeler to lay it on again. Then she physically releases Ramshalam and Gates out, leaving her proxy to be balefired.

Or she could do what Rahvin did to that unnamed red AS in the Caemlyn palace - lay on a compulsion that would evaporate over time.

In that case, it just so happened that the BF was coincident. If Rand had done nothing, Nyn would have noticed 10 minutes later that the Compulsion was no longer there.

 

 

[bronnt]

The CT is not necessary for a scenario where Graendal realises that Ramshalam is a tethered goat.

She could put on compulsion, interrogate him, take off the compulsion and get a pet female channeler to lay it on again. Then she physically releases Ramshalam and Gates out, leaving her proxy to be balefired.

Or she could do what Rahvin did to that unnamed red AS in the Caemlyn palace - lay on a compulsion that would evaporate over time.

In that case, it just so happened that the BF was coincident. If Rand had done nothing, Nyn would have noticed 10 minutes later that the Compulsion was no longer there.

 

While I'm not ruling the possibility that Graendal could have survived, I seriously don't think it works that way.  There's not many people who can unweave a Compulsion, as I understand it, and when you do, it essentially damages the brain anyway regardless of how skilled you are.  You can see this with Elza, who had a much more subtle (though less skilled) form of Compulsion on her; she was described as a bit slower after the Compulsion was removed.

 

For one, I doubt Graendal was even particularly subtle.  When a man shows up and says he's a messenger of the Dragon Reborn, she probably just hit him with everything to make him talk.  Unweaving that would have left him a dimwit.  But he's back to normal, we see, after the BF.  I think that conclusively proves that who-ever BFed him died.  Maybe it wasn't necessarily Graendal.  I believe she's dead, but I won't rule out the chance she survived.  If she is alive, though, I think it means Ramshalan was never under her Compulsion.

[Dakota]

Even assuming that the Crystal Throne was what was responsible for Rshamalyn's compulsion, do we know that balefiring the throne would undo it's effects?  Balefiring someone only erases their thread.  Objects, as far as we know, do not have threads.  So if it was someone other than Graendal, especially a non-channeler, using the throne to compel someone, would the throne, or even the person using it, being balefired erase it's effects.  Semirhage was controlling Rand, Rand caused Min's bruises.  Semirhage is BF'd, but the bruises remain because the object causing them, Rand, remained.  Conversely, non-channeler uses the throne to compel someone.  That person is BF'd.  Would the throne's actions be undone if it doesn't have a thread?  I suppose it would depend on who the laws of BF is ultimately responsible for the compulsion - the throne doing the compelling, or the person using the throne.

[Hadilmir]

Dakota, think string theory. Everything has a thread, every single atom. Fact.

 

A soul is different, conforming to the body's sense of self. That is why Balefire erases people no matter where it hits them, some property of souls or something means the Balefire envelopes the entirety of the body. If that soulless Ogier's arm was Balefired then just the arm would be gone. I wonder if you Balefired where Rand's hand used to be if it would hit him, since he still feels it as part of his body. Opinion.

[DemandredFO]

We have multiple POV's of multiple people saying that Greandal isn't as oblivious as she seems.  I find it probable that she survived and will be back.  Her character has been really built up so I highly don't she would die like that.  Also, I'm thinking(just a hunch) that she will survive TG and carry on the war.

[Sharaman]

The CT is not necessary for a scenario where Graendal realises that Ramshalam is a tethered goat.

She could put on compulsion, interrogate him, take off the compulsion and get a pet female channeler to lay it on again. Then she physically releases Ramshalam and Gates out, leaving her proxy to be balefired.

Or she could do what Rahvin did to that unnamed red AS in the Caemlyn palace - lay on a compulsion that would evaporate over time.

In that case, it just so happened that the BF was coincident. If Rand had done nothing, Nyn would have noticed 10 minutes later that the Compulsion was no longer there.

 

While I'm not ruling the possibility that Graendal could have survived, I seriously don't think it works that way.  There's not many people who can unweave a Compulsion, as I understand it, and when you do, it essentially damages the brain anyway regardless of how skilled you are.  You can see this with Elza, who had a much more subtle (though less skilled) form of Compulsion on her; she was described as a bit slower after the Compulsion was removed.

 

For one, I doubt Graendal was even particularly subtle.  When a man shows up and says he's a messenger of the Dragon Reborn, she probably just hit him with everything to make him talk.  Unweaving that would have left him a dimwit.  But he's back to normal, we see, after the BF.  I think that conclusively proves that who-ever BFed him died.  Maybe it wasn't necessarily Graendal.  I believe she's dead, but I won't rule out the chance she survived.  If she is alive, though, I think it means Ramshalan was never under her Compulsion.

 

Graendal is by LTT's estimation the most skilled user of Compulsion he knows.

She was also the most skilled mind-doctor in the AoL.

If anybody could unweave compulsion without damage, it would be Graendal.

 

Also the second possibility is that she did something like this (Prologue, FoH, Rahvin's PoV)

 

The cessation of the woman's speech pulled him from his reverie. "When you leave here," he told her,

"you will remember nothing of this visit. You will remember only taking your usual morning walk." She

nodded, eager to please him, and he tied off the strands of Spirit lightly, so they would evaporate from her mind shortly after she reached the street. Repeated use of compulsion made obedience easier even when it was not in use, but while it was, there was always a danger it might be detected.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think she's dead.  Mainly because with two books left, it's rather pointless to bring back a secondary character for no particular reason.  I liked her character and thought that her death was too abrupt and didn't think that scene was written very well and they could have done more with her, but I think it's safe to say we've seen the last of her.

 

[Awakened]

I'm going to go with that being the end of Grandael. It was in the first third of the last book and it was just time for her to die. The final confrontation is between Moridin and Rand, and before that Demandred and Rand. The best she could have hoped for given how much time there was left was to die beside Demandred as his lovely assistant. I don't quite like how she died, she had potential to be more, but her death moved the story along by underlining why turning into such a colossal dick was so tempting to Rand: because it really seemed to be the best path toward saving the world. Killing Grandael was the universe's way of giving him a kudos for being a heartless bastard and thus helped bring the universe closer to its doom. Honestly, I doubt Moghedein will receive such an important ending. 

[MikeRiley]

Even assuming that the Crystal Throne was what was responsible for Rshamalyn's compulsion, do we know that balefiring the throne would undo it's effects?  Balefiring someone only erases their thread.  Objects, as far as we know, do not have threads.  So if it was someone other than Graendal, especially a non-channeler, using the throne to compel someone, would the throne, or even the person using it, being balefired erase it's effects.  Semirhage was controlling Rand, Rand caused Min's bruises.  Semirhage is BF'd, but the bruises remain because the object causing them, Rand, remained.  Conversely, non-channeler uses the throne to compel someone.  That person is BF'd.  Would the throne's actions be undone if it doesn't have a thread?  I suppose it would depend on who the laws of BF is ultimately responsible for the compulsion - the throne doing the compelling, or the person using the throne.

 

 

It's been said in one of the early books that everything has a thread, even the stones in the street. If the crystal throne was balefired I can see it removing the compulsion.