A little Taim theory

[Sid]

It's probably been brought up several times before, but ever since Taimandred was officially debunked, I've had a need to figure out what's up with the guy.

 

My guess is that he's a darkfriend and that he has been trained by Ishamael since his age indicates that he must have started channeling before the other Forsaken broke out of their prison.  His strength being close to Rand's means he's 'near Forsaken' level, so perhaps that's why Ishy would take the time.  It could explain why he uses 'Travel' and 'So-called Aiel', etc. when he speaks with Rand, due to being around and learning from someone that would use such terms.  His ability to hold off the taint certainly indicates protection from the Dark One like the Forsaken have.

How does he know how to teach the other Asha'man so effectively?  He may have had experience already in the blight with Aielmen who found they could channel and were sent to "Kill the Dark One".  Any of them being darkfriends would certainly jump at the opportunity to be taught, and any that were not could have been turned.  I wonder if they have the special protection from the Dark One as well, or else they'd likely not last long enough to make it worthwhile...

The rage he feels when he gets his Sword and Dragon pins are something I cannot puzzle out, however.  It seems too personal, like more than just the fact that they dislike each other.  I was so sure he was Demandred in disguise because of that as much as anything before WH came out (and RJ said straight out he was not).

 

Anyhow, I think he's been a DF for several years, and his time as a False Dragon was planned to make him known to the world, so Rand would trust him just a little more than someone nobody ever heard of, and the Amnesty Rand announced was his cue to be taken into Rand's confidences.  Of course Rand would be far to busy to see to day-to-day activities for male channeler training, and if Rand didn't come up the the idea for Taim to train them himself, Taim could begrudgingly offer to do so for him.  So he's a key DF in a key position planned from well before Rand even proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn.

 

Apologies if all of this has been done to death, but if there's anything to prove or strongly discredit the theory I'd be happy to hear them  :)

[Yizun]

I had figured he was a Dark friend of high ranking ever since he showed up in Tear after somehow breaking free from the Aes Sedai he was captured by. Recall that, from the sisters that Egwene and Elayne captured in Tear, they learned of a Black Ajah plot to free Taim. What other reason would they have to free him than that he was a Dark Friend?

 

Also recall how badly Davram Bashere says that he decimated and destroyed his homeland (Ghealdan if i remember right), it may have been him purposefully weakening the blight border in preparation of the attack in TEotW. Also his pure hatred of Rand Al'Thor, the true Dragon Reborn, goes beyond him being mad at someone who is who he wanted to be. It is almost as if he has a personal vendetta against him, which he would if he was a Dark Friend taught by one of the Forsaken. Hence his anger at Rand promoting him, he already believes himself above all male channelers there, excluding any Forsaken in attendance, which would explain the anger. He must feel it the equivalent of, say, a private in the military trying to promote a general. (for lack of a better analogy)

 

Also it would explain his various "private training sessions" with the one hundred or so asha'man in the later BT (KoD Loghain perspective). Also his reaction to the WT Aes Sedai asking to bond male channelers as warders at the end of KoD (or CoT i forget). He responded with "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", something the Dark One himself spoke to the Forsaken, which is basically his master plan for winning the Last Battle.

 

It also would explain how one of the Forsaken (Dashiva AKA Aran'Gar?) sneaked into the ranks of the BT so easily, and the attempted murder of Rand at the palace in Andor. It would also explain him ordering the death of Rand's two most trusted Asha'man, Damer Flinn and (i forget his name).

 

Anywho thats my arguement for him being an evil SoB. Questions, comments, evidence against?

 

 

[Malruhn]

Personally, I think Taim is just a self-serving bastage that happens to use unfortunate expressions that SOUND good to him and are what the Forsaken use.

 

He's a top-notch jerk... and nothing more.

[Entretamis]

Taim was imprisoned at SG when the bore was sealed. he was just a minor player in the war that was not mentioned by the historians and LT doesnt know him like he knows the forsaken.

[Yizun]

Taim was imprisoned at SG when the bore was sealed. he was just a minor player in the war that was not mentioned by the historians and LT doesnt know him like he knows the forsaken.

 

Im not implying that he is from the AoL, but if Ishameal could show up into Rand's dreams in TEotW, who says he didnt show up in Taim's and offer him the same deal except he accepted?

[Beer Rot]

One of the first things Rand did was to show Taim how to Travel, hence him using the term.

[Druugan]

I think that there is plenty of evidence supporting that Taim is at the very least, a Darkfriend.  However, it's all circumstantial.  Until we have a POV from Taim where he admits it or refutes it in his thoughts, or we have a POV of a DF or Forsaken showing a meeting or some other irrefutable proof that he is or isn't... it's going to be a point of debate. 

 

Personally though, I was in the camp thinking he was Demandred until that was debunked.  I still think that Taim is a Darkfriend at the very least and will unless it's proven wrong.  The evidence is just a little too heavy in that direction, and I don't think RJ would just happen to have him using certain phrases as a coincidence.  I don't believe in coincidence.

[Giovanni]

I think that there is plenty of evidence supporting that Taim is at the very least, a Darkfriend.  However, it's all circumstantial.  Until we have a POV from Taim where he admits it or refutes it in his thoughts, or we have a POV of a DF or Forsaken showing a meeting or some other irrefutable proof that he is or isn't... it's going to be a point of debate. 

 

Personally though, I was in the camp thinking he was Demandred until that was debunked.  I still think that Taim is a Darkfriend at the very least and will unless it's proven wrong.  The evidence is just a little too heavy in that direction, and I don't think RJ would just happen to have him using certain phrases as a coincidence.  I don't believe in coincidence.

 

I don't see how it's even debatable?  I mean he says "Let the Lord of Chaos rule," a phrase only known to the Forsaken.  Additionally I don't see how he could've been Demandred since LTT didn't recognize him.

[Druugan]

I don't see how it's even debatable?

And yet I've seen it debated in numerous threads... including this one.  Therefore, it's debatable.

I mean he says "Let the Lord of Chaos rule," a phrase only known to the Forsaken.

For me, I agree.  This is one of the strong pieces of evidence that make me believe that he is at least a Darkfriend.  Unfortunately, it doesn't make it fact.  Doubters claim that it could simply be a little used expression and purely coincidence.  Whether or not you or I think that's a load of grolm droppings doesn't prevent others from making the point.

Additionally I don't see how he could've been Demandred since LTT didn't recognize him.

Mask of Mirrors.

[Giovanni]

And yet I've seen it debated in numerous threads... including this one.  Therefore, it's debatable.

 

People can "debate" whether or not 2+2=4.  That doesn't mean it's objectively debatable.  But I know what you mean.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't make it fact.  Doubters claim that it could simply be a little used expression and purely coincidence.  Whether or not you or I think that's a load of grolm droppings doesn't prevent others from making the point.

 

I personally think that he's Moridin's right hand man, because the BT is all decked out in black and red, and it's mentioned several times that those are Ishamael's fav colors.

 

Mask of Mirrors.

 

 

 

Yeah you're correct of course.  I guess I just don't understand why the other Forsaken didn't disguise themselves from Rand.  Maybe they were overconfident at first, but after he'd killed like half of them they should've gotten a clue.

 

Also, another reason I don't see how Taim could be any of the Forsaken is that he was out years before Aginor and the ones closest to the edge of the Bore escaped.

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't think that there can be any real question that he's a DF.  The idea that Ishamael recruited him and protected him from the taint like he was promising to do for Rand is the most likely thing to me, although the idea of him being some non-Forsaken trapped in there with them is interesting one.

 

The one flaw that I see with him being evil is that he gave Rand one of the seals to the DO's prison.  DFs were then going after Bashere and Barthanes in Knife of Dreams in order to look for those seals.  If Ishamael had one and gave it to Taim to give to Rand in order to show the guy's loyalty, wouldn't he put a finder or something on it so that he could track it down if needed, especially since there was a good chance that Rand would put it with the other ones, so he wouldn't need to send people out to look for them?

 

[Sid]

One of the first things Rand did was to show Taim how to Travel, hence him using the term.

 

Rand showed it to Taim, calling it a 'gateway'.  Then a few minutes later Taim said something to the effect of "you know how to Travel, yet you don't know how to test men for the ability"?

[Yizun]

One of the first things Rand did was to show Taim how to Travel, hence him using the term.

 

Rand showed it to Taim, calling it a 'gateway'.  Then a few minutes later Taim said something to the effect of "you know how to Travel, yet you don't know how to test men for the ability"?

 

Traveling is something in their legends. Almost everyone who is familiar with the Power IE Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, The Kin, know about it. Remember he was captured by Aes Sedai for a while. Mayhaps they mentioned something to the effect of "If we knew how to Travel this would be easier" Or something.

 

Of course it could also be because he already knew how. It would explain how he evaded re-capture so easily. And if he knew how it means he was taught by a Forsaken.

 

The latter is what im going for

[mb]

These are the possibilities for Taim::

-Taim being his own side

-Taim influenced by the Dark side

-Taim forced to the Shadow

-Taim a Darkfriend

From his scenes so far, there seems a equal chance of each.

 

This seems certain about Taim: him not Light sided.

Like another poster, a POV from him would make his alliance certain.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

I don't think the question is who Taim is, but rather who Taim is NOW. I have no doubt in my mind that he was intended to be Demandred for a long time, and that RJ changed his mind for whatever reason, the WH clue dropped to set up the later debunking... ALL of the Ishy-influenced stuff has come purely as supposition to try and re-direct the many clues that had initially made it clear Taim was Demandred. Its the least-square peg to be pounded in the round, Demi-shaped hole so consequently people have run with it... but it is PURE supposition based on reverse engineering of the storyline.

 

He could be anybody that doesn't directly conflict with what's already been done, including someone that RJ introduced specifically for that purpose, or even someone we haven't seen yet.

 

I'm just very disappointed in the change, and its going to take a pretty great gee-whiz resolution for that particular disappointment to lift.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I don't think the question is who Taim is, but rather who Taim is NOW. I have no doubt in my mind that he was intended to be Demandred for a long time, and that RJ changed his mind for whatever reason, the WH clue dropped to set up the later debunking... ALL of the Ishy-influenced stuff has come purely as supposition to try and re-direct the many clues that had initially made it clear Taim was Demandred. Its the least-square peg to be pounded in the round, Demi-shaped hole so consequently people have run with it... but it is PURE supposition based on reverse engineering of the storyline.

 

He could be anybody that doesn't directly conflict with what's already been done, including someone that RJ introduced specifically for that purpose, or even someone we haven't seen yet.

 

I'm just very disappointed in the change, and its going to take a pretty great gee-whiz resolution for that particular disappointment to lift.

 

Your not a man your a chicken Taim. He's a chicken,a chicken. Cluck cluck bacaw!

[Giovanni]

I don't think the question is who Taim is, but rather who Taim is NOW. I have no doubt in my mind that he was intended to be Demandred for a long time, and that RJ changed his mind for whatever reason, the WH clue dropped to set up the later debunking... ALL of the Ishy-influenced stuff has come purely as supposition to try and re-direct the many clues that had initially made it clear Taim was Demandred. Its the least-square peg to be pounded in the round, Demi-shaped hole so consequently people have run with it... but it is PURE supposition based on reverse engineering of the storyline.

 

I couldn't disagree more.  I don't think RJ EVER intended Taim to be Demandred.  Consider:  Taim was around for years and years before Aginor escaped the bore, and it's been stated he was the first to be released.  If Demandred would've gotten out before Aginor, he too would've suffered excessive aging (think what 3000 year old skin would look like) because he would likewise have to have been near the edge of the prison (closer to it in fact).

 

Additionally, Taim and Dashiva obviously weren't in cahoots because Taim was surprised that Dashiva was with the other BT traitors.  I know that the Forsaken often keep things hidden from each other, but it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that NEITHER of them knew the other was there. 

 

Another reason I don't think he was ever intended to be Demandred is that he was originally captured when he fell off his horse in shock at the vision of Rand fighting Ishy over Falme.  Demandred would not be so easily shocked, nor so clumsy, nor so easily captured, methinks.

[Beer Rot]

Another reason I don't think he was ever intended to be Demandred is that he was originally captured when he fell off his horse in shock at the vision of Rand fighting Ishy over Falme.  Demandred would not be so easily shocked, nor so clumsy, nor so easily captured, methinks.

 

Original theory is that is the real Taim, he was then killed and replaced by Demmy when he escaped... which is why Davram has trouble recognizing him.

 

New theory is Taim was either a darky or 13x13'd.  I'd like to go with 13x13, just because its really annoying that we know of no one in the series having been turned.

[Mr Ares]

One of the first things Rand did was to show Taim how to Travel, hence him using the term.

Rand showed it to Taim, calling it a 'gateway'.  Then a few minutes later Taim said something to the effect of "you know how to Travel, yet you don't know how to test men for the ability"?

Traveling is something in their legends. Almost everyone who is familiar with the Power IE Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, The Kin, know about it. Remember he was captured by Aes Sedai for a while. Mayhaps they mentioned something to the effect of "If we knew how to Travel this would be easier" Or something.

 

Of course it could also be because he already knew how. It would explain how he evaded re-capture so easily. And if he knew how it means he was taught by a Forsaken.

 

The latter is what im going for

Taim knowing how to Travel answers no questions, and makes some of the statements RJ has made a trifle odd. Bashere followed Taim, Taim left a trail. How would he have left a trail if he could just vanish and reappear in another country? Also, RJ's saying he was "ridden hard and put away wet", about the rigours of his journey adding years to his apparent age - why such a tough journey if he could Travel. I won't say it's impossible, but it doesn't really seem to fit with what RJ has given us about how Taim got to Rand, and why. Also, Taim knowing how to Travel does not mean he was taught it by a Chosen. People can learn things for themselves. I agree that Taim is pro-Shadow, that he was quite possibly taught by a Chosen, but I wouldn't class his referring to Traveling as evidence of anything much - it could mean nothing.

 

I don't think the question is who Taim is, but rather who Taim is NOW. I have no doubt in my mind that he was intended to be Demandred for a long time, and that RJ changed his mind for whatever reason, the WH clue dropped to set up the later debunking... ALL of the Ishy-influenced stuff has come purely as supposition to try and re-direct the many clues that had initially made it clear Taim was Demandred. Its the least-square peg to be pounded in the round, Demi-shaped hole so consequently people have run with it... but it is PURE supposition based on reverse engineering of the storyline.

 

He could be anybody that doesn't directly conflict with what's already been done, including someone that RJ introduced specifically for that purpose, or even someone we haven't seen yet.

 

I'm just very disappointed in the change, and its going to take a pretty great gee-whiz resolution for that particular disappointment to lift.

Given that RJ has said that not only is Taim not Demandred, he was never intended to be, and RJ was surprised at people linking the two, I'd say it is rather arrogant for people to say that Taim was intended to be Demandred. You're calling RJ a liar, but offering not a shred of evidence. Maybe RJ did intend that, but he says differently.

[Impressive Bosom]

I think that the many, many, many...

 

...many, many, many 'coincidences' that link Taim and Demandred, causing not just a few people to theorize the connection but rather MOST people to simply assume it as fact would be strong enough evidence. Strong enough for me, at least, and I make the point that this is my opinion and my disappointment.

 

But I will not insult RJ by suggesting he was ignorant of such obvious and repetitive instances of similarity, across a broad spectrum of physical, emotional, chronological and circumstantual traits. I can't tell you why he would make the change, nor could I guess as to why he downplayed the connection that was so obviously there if not to maintain the integrity of the current story... but I feel both comfortable and disappointed with my conclusion.

[Beer Rot]

RJ: Bahaha.. LTT's buddy, turned worst enemy is going to be training all of Rand's men and no one will ever know! This is great! One of the Forsaken right up close to Rand.  OH THE SHOCK WHEN PEOPLE REALIZE!

 

Internet: "New Post: So I think Taim = Demandred!"

Book tour: Mister Jordan sir, is Taim really Demandred?

 

RJ: ..... I hate the internet /rewrites

 

 

Yeah, I love the theory that Taim is either a padawan of Ishy or was 13x13'd after escaping.  Its great and fits the storyline, either way.  But welp... I'll always believe.

 

edit: Impressive Bosom, every time I see that name I picture someone glaring and sniffing at me.

[Mr Ares]

I think that the many, many, many...

 

...many, many, many 'coincidences' that link Taim and Demandred, causing not just a few people to theorize the connection but rather MOST people to simply assume it as fact would be strong enough evidence. Strong enough for me, at least, and I make the point that this is my opinion and my disappointment.

 

But I will not insult RJ by suggesting he was ignorant of such obvious and repetitive instances of similarity, across a broad spectrum of physical, emotional, chronological and circumstantual traits. I can't tell you why he would make the change, nor could I guess as to why he downplayed the connection that was so obviously there if not to maintain the integrity of the current story... but I feel both comfortable and disappointed with my conclusion.

There are but a handful of similarities, which people seized on and took to mean something they were never supposed to mean. Instead of insulting RJ by saying he was ignorant of the similarities, you insult him by calling him a liar. RJ said they were never intended to be the same. It is arrogant and insulting to claim otherwise, especially as you do so with not a shred of evidence to support you.

 

RJ: Bahaha.. LTT's buddy, turned worst enemy is going to be training all of Rand's men and no one will ever know! This is great! One of the Forsaken right up close to Rand.  OH THE SHOCK WHEN PEOPLE REALIZE!

 

Internet: "New Post: So I think Taim = Demandred!"

Book tour: Mister Jordan sir, is Taim really Demandred?

 

RJ: ..... I hate the internet /rewrites

Considering that internet fans make up only a small part of RJ's readership, rather than the majority, and considering tha RJ frequently heavily foreshadows things to the extent that an awful lot has been guessed ahead of time, it is absurd and out of chracter for RJ to change the story because some people had guessed it. You offer no evidence. Sure, it was a good theory. Then RJ shot it down. Oh, so he must have changed it. Because it couldn't possibly be that you just got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

[Beer Rot]

Considering that internet fans make up only a small part of RJ's readership, rather than the majority, and considering tha RJ frequently heavily foreshadows things to the extent that an awful lot has been guessed ahead of time, it is absurd and out of chracter for RJ to change the story because some people had guessed it. You offer no evidence. Sure, it was a good theory. Then RJ shot it down. Oh, so he must have changed it. Because it couldn't possibly be that you just got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

 

 

And I have mine.

[Mr Ares]

Some opinions are more equal than others.

[Beer Rot]

When Harriet releases all the notes as a way of making more money, and I'm proven right, I'll be sure to forgive you all with meek humility.