Finished "Winter's Heart"

[Stanley the Bugman]

Well, I finally finished Winter's Heart the other day, and man what an ending! For some reason it took me the longest to finish thus far, (Like, a month and a half) but it was really good. I'm now taking a break from the series and have started the first Mistborn book which, I have to say, I'm really enjoying so far. As I'm getting more into it, I am gaining more confidence in Brandon Sanderson's ability to finish the series properly.

 

But yes, a few of my favorite parts from the book:

 

1. The ceremony when Elayne and Aviendha become first-sisters

2. Faile's capture

3. Elayne, Aviendha, and Min bonding Rand

4. Pretty much every part with Mat... it's just hilarious how Tylin treats him.

5. Rand's encounter with the two ex-ash'aman and Fain.

6. The ending. Wow, one of my favorite endings of all the books...

[OptimusPrime]

The Cleansing was one of my favorite scenes of the series.

 

Also, I agree with Rands encounter with the renegade Ashaman. The fact that Rand knew the second punch would kill Rochaid was kickass.

 

And "She has more hands than any six women I know."

[Mr Ares]

4. Pretty much every part with Mat... it's just hilarious how Tylin treats him.

Do I hear a can of worms being opened? This is an issue on which feelings can run very high, and people are understandably not in universal agreement that rape is funny.

[OptimusPrime]

4. Pretty much every part with Mat... it's just hilarious how Tylin treats him.

Do I hear a can of worms being opened? This is an issue on which feelings can run very high, and people are understandably not in universal agreement that rape is funny.

 

The situation is hardly supposed to feel dark enough to call it rape. Mat has a bit of a mope about for a while, then realizes he misses Tylin when hes not with her anymore. Judging from the way it is put across, you are not supposed to be repulsed in any way shape or form. The whole situation was very funny. Kind of an ongoing thing with Mats storyline, when you think about it.

[Stanley the Bugman]

4. Pretty much every part with Mat... it's just hilarious how Tylin treats him.

Do I hear a can of worms being opened? This is an issue on which feelings can run very high, and people are understandably not in universal agreement that rape is funny.

 

I was actually referring to her dressing him up in those ridiculous clothes, and just how she is to him in general. Calling him "Pigeon" and stuff like that. It's also  funny in an ironic sort of way because before Mat came to Ebou Dar he was always a bit of a "player", if you will, and it's just funny seeing his reaction to someone doing it to him. I never really was under the impression that he was being raped or anything. Like Drekka Mort said, it's hardly a dark enough situation to be taken any other way than humorously.

[Luckers]

It is hard to sustain her raping him--she forced him, yes. But he was at least somewhat complicit... No, it's doubtful she'd be convicted of rape in a court of law--but she did take sexual advantage of him in a quite dispicable manner. She forced him at knife point to have sex with her, utilized her power as Queen to control his movements and actions.

 

These things happen in such societies, but don't let anyone mistake this issue--had a King pushed a woman into having sex with him this way--with knives and using his servants to curtail her movements--we would not be chortling at how funny that scene was. We'd not necesarily be up in arms--such abuses of power are normal to this type of society--but I do find it incredibly distasteful that people find this funny.

 

Mat was abused. Tylin used her authority to force herself on him. Worse yet, men have no recourse for being abused in this way--they are standardly the presuers in such societies (much as Mat states) and the problem of that is when the presuer is too persistant men have no options. Women can go to friends, or a male relative--if men do so, they get laughed at...

 

"That is ... very bad of Tylin." He thought [Elayne's] lips twitched. "Have you considered practicing different smiles in a mirror, Mat?"

 

Startled, he blinked. "What?"

 

"I have heard reliably that that is what young women do who attract the eyes of kings." Something cracked the sobriety of her voice, and this time her lips definitely twitched. "You might try batting your eyelashes, too." Catching her lower lip with her teeth, she turned away, shoulders shaking, dust-cloak streaming behind as she hurried toward the landing.Before she darted beyond hearing, he heard her chortle something

about "a taste of his own medicine."

 

It would be deplorable if we found a scene funny in which a woman whom a king had forced his attentions on had been told 'you brought it on yourself' in this manner, because this was not a 'taste of his own medicine'. So no, Stanley, this is not a case of Mat 'the Player' having the tables turned by Tylin 'the Player'. Mat chases girls, yes. but when a girl says no to Mat he does not pull a knife on her or have his soldiers lock her up until she says yes to him. 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

What makes me laugh is that in the WOT world corruption is everywhere, people complain Mat was raped, yet Alanna bonded a man against his will, which is considered on par with rape, and nobody wants to say anything about that. Rand can channel, so what? She broke the rules. People complaining because others find Mats situation funny is the same as people moaning because some people like the bad guys.

 

Bad things happen. Its good to read about sometimes. Hell, it can even be funny. Like, when Rand killed the Darkfriend woman and her guards, and made them all kneel and bow... that made me laugh, despite having missed that Rand had a Dream of them being Darkfriends earlier. I thought Rand killed them for no reason and thought it was hilarious

 

People have different opinions. Its a freakin book for crying out loud. Laugh at what you find funny, but dont try stopping other people laughing at what you dont find funny, you will get nowhere.

[Luckers]

What makes me laugh is that in the WOT world corruption is everywhere, people complain Mat was raped, yet Alanna bonded a man against his will, which is considered on par with rape, and nobody wants to say anything about that. Rand can channel, so what? She broke the rules.

 

People do say something about that, Drekka. What Alanna did to Rand was even worse than what Tylin did to Mat--Tylin abused Mat physically. Alanna raped Rand's mind and soul.

 

These are both bad things. They should not be compared as you have forced me to do.

 

People complaining because others find Mats situation funny is the same as people moaning because some people like the bad guys.

 

Not even remotely. Enjoying the protrayel of a bad guy is not agreeing with their actions. For that matter there are scenes within which women are raped which I have found particularily poignant writing--one pops to mind especially, when Thomas Covenant of Stephend Donaldsons The Chronicals of Thomas Covenant rapes Lena. I do not agree with this action, in point of fact I deplore it--but the writing of it, the depcition of the event, serves the story greatly. It is a representation of a terrible event, yet valuable for its realism, and the character development that results.

 

I can reguard the situation with Mat in the same light. It was a realistic event--people in power use their power to abuse people frequently, and the most frequent form of this is sexual abuse. I have absolutely no problem with the portrayel of these events in the series. But I do have a problem with people looking at them as a comedic point--just the same problem I would have if someone looked to the rape of Lena as a humorous aside in Donaldson's epic.

 

Bad things happen. Its good to read about sometimes. Hell, it can even be funny. Like, when Rand killed the Darkfriend woman and her guards, and made them all kneel and bow... that made me laugh, despite having missed that Rand had a Dream of them being Darkfriends earlier.

 

I agree with that except for 'it can be funny'. The vanquishing of an evil person is not a bad thing, and thus might be seen as funny--Buffy, for examply, is frequently at her most funny with her final quips to a vanquished foe--the sexual abuse of someone is not, and should never be reguarded as funny.

 

People have different opinions. Its a freakin book for crying out loud. Laugh at what you find funny, but dont try stopping other people laughing at what you dont find funny, you will get nowhere.

 

If their opinion is that someone abusing someone else sexually is humerous, its problematic--whether the individuals in question are fictional or not.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

4. Pretty much every part with Mat... it's just hilarious how Tylin treats him.

Do I hear a can of worms being opened? This is an issue on which feelings can run very high, and people are understandably not in universal agreement that rape is funny.

The situation is hardly supposed to feel dark enough to call it rape. Mat has a bit of a mope about for a while, then realizes he misses Tylin when hes not with her anymore. Judging from the way it is put across, you are not supposed to be repulsed in any way shape or form. The whole situation was very funny. Kind of an ongoing thing with Mats storyline, when you think about it.

The thing is, some posters on here do consider it rape, and this debate can get quite ugly at times when it rears its head. Yes, clearly it is written in a somewhat light hearted manner, but this simply increases the dislike some people have for that section.

 

What makes me laugh is that in the WOT world corruption is everywhere, people complain Mat was raped, yet Alanna bonded a man against his will, which is considered on par with rape, and nobody wants to say anything about that.

What Alanna did isn't really treated as a good thing, though. Nor does anyone laugh it off.

People complaining because others find Mats situation funny is the same as people moaning because some people like the bad guys.

Not really. It's possible to like bad guys while still appreciating that they are bad guys. To try and pass it off as Mat "having the tables turned on him" isn't quite right, as what we see from Tylin isn't what we see from Mat. Yes, it's treated in a fairly light-hearted way, but look at what you're seeing happen.

 

Bad things happen. Its good to read about sometimes. Hell, it can even be funny.

I don't dispute that. But the key is to look and see what it is that you are actually laughing at, and it's not just a chaser becoming the chased in this instance.

Like, when Rand killed the Darkfriend woman and her guards, and made them all kneel and bow... that made me laugh, despite having missed that Rand had a Dream of them being Darkfriends earlier. I thought Rand killed them for no reason and thought it was hilarious

Really? I didn't see that scene as all that funny. And my sense of humour has been known to get very morbid at times.

 

I'm not saying you can't laugh at those scenes - comedy is not always subject to the bounds of good taste. I'm just saying, be aware that some people have a very different view of what happened then, so tread lightly or things might get nasty - they have done in the past. If you wish to laugh, I cannot stop you, but you might want to keep it to yourself.

[Beer Rot]

I can't wait to re-read this book.  I loved Mat's rape scenes.

[Stanley the Bugman]

Bad things happen. Its good to read about sometimes. Hell, it can even be funny. Like, when Rand killed the Darkfriend woman and her guards, and made them all kneel and bow... that made me laugh, despite having missed that Rand had a Dream of them being Darkfriends earlier. I thought Rand killed them for no reason and thought it was hilarious

 

Heh, I actually found that funny too. I also didn't realise there was a dream sequence, it was kind of like, "Wow, that was random...."

 

And, I'm pretty sure Mat actually enjoyed the sex part of the whole thing. In fact, I believe it says something in the text somewhere... (I'll have to go read it again) but it was more of the way she would treat him as far as having him wear silly clothes, and just how she kind of made him her "toy" so to speak, and that he was kind of stuck there with her that bothered him. I really think it's a little overreaching to say that she raped him. I mean, it seems to me with all of the other things he was able to get out of before meeting her, that a woman coming at him with a knife would be something that he could easily handle. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was also the fact that she was older than him and that she was a queen that bothered him more than anything.

 

I mean, we are talking about Mat Cauthon here, it's not like he was with/trying to get with all the pretty women that came his way or anything... Well, That's my opinion anyway...

[Beer Rot]

If Mat didn't want to have sex with Tylin, he would not have had sex with her.

 

He just did not like being the submissive, that's all really.

 

And what real man does?  None.

[OptimusPrime]

I can't wait to re-read this book.  I loved Mat's rape scenes.

 

High five brother!

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

I did not expect this discussion when I happened upon the title of the topic. Funny that. Ohh wait, am, no its not funny. The funny thing was , am, how I wasn't expecting the conversation not that the content of it was funny. Oh wailey, wailey!  :P

[Luckers]

I can't wait to re-read this book.  I loved Mat's rape scenes.

 

How... distasteful.

 

 

And, I'm pretty sure Mat actually enjoyed the sex part of the whole thing. In fact, I believe it says something in the text somewhere... (I'll have to go read it again) but it was more of the way she would treat him as far as having him wear silly clothes, and just how she kind of made him her "toy" so to speak, and that he was kind of stuck there with her that bothered him. I really think it's a little overreaching to say that she raped him. I mean, it seems to me with all of the other things he was able to get out of before meeting her, that a woman coming at him with a knife would be something that he could easily handle. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was also the fact that she was older than him and that she was a queen that bothered him more than anything.

 

You 'haha how funny is sexual abuse' people seem to be focussed on the word rape. Once again, she did not rape him--but she did take sexual advantage of him. She used her authority as Queen to corner him into a sexual relationship--and that is the core of what sexual harassment is. She used her authority to make him have sex with her. This is not rape, but it is not therefore 'good'. She abused him.

 

As for throwing in the knife--that just adds whole levels to her despicability--but could he have gotten out of it? Without hurting her? Mat was restrained by his socialized attitudes about women. Tylin wasn't trying to kill him, and that hamstrung his ability to respond.

 

That fact is he did not want to have sex with her. She forced him--he may have enjoyed it, insofar as the sex went. He may even have felt things for her--but neither of these things make her actions any less deplorable--nor do they make this situation any more humerous.

 

I frankly find the fact that people find this funny sickening.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I can't wait to re-read this book.  I loved Mat's rape scenes.

 

How... distasteful.

 

 

And, I'm pretty sure Mat actually enjoyed the sex part of the whole thing. In fact, I believe it says something in the text somewhere... (I'll have to go read it again) but it was more of the way she would treat him as far as having him wear silly clothes, and just how she kind of made him her "toy" so to speak, and that he was kind of stuck there with her that bothered him. I really think it's a little overreaching to say that she raped him. I mean, it seems to me with all of the other things he was able to get out of before meeting her, that a woman coming at him with a knife would be something that he could easily handle. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was also the fact that she was older than him and that she was a queen that bothered him more than anything.

 

You 'haha how funny is sexual abuse' people seem to be focussed on the word rape. Once again, she did not rape him--but she did take sexual advantage of him. She used her authority as Queen to corner him into a sexual relationship--and that is the core of what sexual harassment is. She used her authority to make him have sex with her. This is not rape, but it is not therefore 'good'. She abused him.

 

As for throwing in the knife--that just adds whole levels to her despicability--but could he have gotten out of it? Without hurting her? Mat was restrained by his socialized attitudes about women. Tylin wasn't trying to kill him, and that hamstrung his ability to respond.

 

That fact is he did not want to have sex with her. She forced him--he may have enjoyed it, insofar as the sex went. He may even have felt things for her--but neither of these things make her actions any less deplorable--nor do they make this situation any more humerous.

 

I frankly find the fact that people find this funny sickening.

 

Am I dont find it funny Luckers, just the fact that such an innocent title of a topic could be so mis leading about whats inside. Please dont be mad at me. :-\

[Dreamwalker]

The lighthearted writing is likely not supposed to make it funny, but rather, to point out the plight of a man in this situation. Elayne's reaction in particular stands out. It shows the injustice of how society doesn't seem to take it as seriously when this happens to a young man versus a young woman. When I read those sections of the book, it is uncomfortable, and I think this is done intentionally to make the reader feel what Mat's feeling and to make us question what's going on and the typical societal responses. I think that is actually quite brilliant writing (as Luckers pointed out, bad stuff can be good to read) if it makes you feel how the character feels about a situation and if it can cause discussions like this - but apparently not everyone reads it that way, thinking that the lighthearted tone means that it must be put in for humor.

[Dreamwalker]

Anyway, back to the original subject of this thread, the end of Winter's Heart is one of the coolest in the series. It's just so EPIC. I think part of what makes it so awesome is that you get so many PoVs from the bad guys - you're getting both sides of the battle, and that's pretty tight. I hope that the Last Battle will be similarly written - that we will get some Forsaken or (if the rest are dead or something) at least some Moridin PoVs mixed in with our typical Light-side PoVs because that would make it way cooler. Oh, and throw a Fain PoV in there too, and we've got a winner people.  ;)

[NetSlider]

And one more thing in Mat's defense, I think that it was in Egw's pov that she thinks that he chases women a lot but has an unnatural instinct to chase women who want to be chased. Mat did not get "his own medicine," all in all, he was abused. But than, he was single at the time so why not take a little "beating" for the team now and again....:) Man and women ARE from different planets. What applies to one does not always applies to other. Not that it makes one group better or worse, it's just makes them different.

[OptimusPrime]

Anyway, back to the original subject of this thread, the end of Winter's Heart is one of the coolest in the series. It's just so EPIC. I think part of what makes it so awesome is that you get so many PoVs from the bad guys - you're getting both sides of the battle, and that's pretty tight. I hope that the Last Battle will be similarly written - that we will get some Forsaken or (if the rest are dead or something) at least some Moridin PoVs mixed in with our typical Light-side PoVs because that would make it way cooler. Oh, and throw a Fain PoV in there too, and we've got a winner people.  ;)

 

Agreed 100%. The fact that so many Forsaken showed up in one place was awesome. I especially liked the portrayal of Cyndanes knowledge of the Power being an advantage over Alivias aided power level. The last time I was satisfied with that kind of thing was Rand vs Rahvin.

 

Pretty much everything about the Cleansing was kickass. Cadsuane pulled some good tactics from up her sleeve, and for a while because of that she was my second favorite female. I would love to see more of that.

 

One thing I would like though, is to have the next Rand-Forsaken encounter from the Forsakens PoV.

[Stanley the Bugman]

Pretty much everything about the Cleansing was kickass. Cadsuane pulled some good tactics from up her sleeve, and for a while because of that she was my second favorite female. I would love to see more of that.

 

One thing I would like though, is to have the next Rand-Forsaken encounter from the Forsakens PoV.

 

That would be awesome.

 

That entire battle was great. I loved how Osan'gar thought he was going to be a big hero by killing Rand, and ended up getting killed.