Birgitte

[Sid]

I'm wondering what people's opinions are concerning Birgitte and her current situation. 

Does this happen every turning of the Wheel, and she just cannot remember far enough back even in Tel'aran'rhiod?  If so will she do something so heroic in this age that she'll be bound to the horn again right away?  (perhaps a heroic death even before Mat blows the horn and she can return and be all cool about it)  She at one point mentions hearing about a 'female warder but that was so long ago that she cannot even remember anything beyond that' and it is in fact possible that it's herself that she's barely remembering.

Or, is this the first time this has ever happened to her in any turning of the Wheel?

[MikeRiley]

I don't think Birgitte was meant to be called by the Horn at this time. Gaidal has already been born into the world and it's not likely it would have happened just out of the blue. He won't die before he can do something heroic. The Wheel will recognize Birgitte and do one of two things:

 

1. Kill her so she can be reborn at the proper time to fit with Gaidal's birth.

2. Tweak the pattern to account for her being older than him this time.

 

We know that Birgitte's memories were intact when she was in TAR and she said there that always Gaidal came first. That's what worries her, she doesn't know how that will affect their relationship when they meet. I don't believe her status as a Hero has changed any by her being removed from TAR. Her soul is what's recognized, not her current location.

 

Regarding her being that female warder.. It sounds interesting, it certainly could be possible.

[mb]

In Winter's Heart, Min had a bunch of Viewings about Birgitte.  A number of those Viewings are with a man I take to be both older and younger than Birgitte.

The Viewings about that man would need to happen before Birgitte dies since this would be the only spinning of both were both are simultaneously older and younger than each other.  (Doubtfully Birgitte would be ripped out again.)  Those Viewings seem to indicate that Birgitte would survive Tarmon Gaidon; if the Light side wins Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Those Viewings also seem to indicate that Birgitte is still a Hero; also Birgitte being able to find Nynaeve in Telaranrhiod near the end of Fires of Heaven.

 

[Reptyle]

I've always thought it would be cool if a situation came up that she had to call on Gaidal...She was torn out of time, why couldn't he if he felt her need?

 

Maybe she wouldn't call him for herself, but the need of another...Possibly to protect Elayne? Or, if memory serves, turn the tide of a battle, since he's supposed to be bad mother?

 

My memory stinks, but I think I read he may have already been reborn, which, if that is the case, then there is no way the above will happen.

[MikeRiley]

He's already been reborn. He's less than a year old at the moment.

[jwillis7]

i started to think that it was not what Moghedien did that really messed up Birgitte.  I think being bound to the wheel is a huge deal.  i think horn of valere was made ( you will see where i'm going just hold on) by humans, finding out a way to call people bound to the wheel to your aid for a short amount of time.  Now i don't think what Moghedien did was any different than kinda calling her like the horn.  I think when she was put in the world there was nothing holding her there like the horn holds them when it is used.  i think if nothing was done she would have just gone back to TAR.  I think the damage was done when Elayne bonded her and tied her to the pattern, which is what she did tied Brigitte to her.  i have always worried that that has messed everything up and i fear that when the horn is blown again i think Gidial will be there and he will not know Brigitte and she will not know him but we will...  Moghedien is not that powerful to rip something that is bound to the wheel by just pulling it out of TAR

[RedEagle]

Since Gaidal has been reborn he can't be called back by the Horn. Much like Rand/LLT is not called back in TGH. The Pattern has spun Gaidal back out, I presume, to help in the stabilazation process after TG. Being reborn he won't KNOW who Birgitte is, but he will be inexorably drawn to her.

 

[jwillis7]

i did not explain i'm sorry i think he will die since she will not be there, i know she is always born after but the pattern uses them both and since it can not do that it does not need him it might use someone else.  So when i said he will be there i meant we will know he died.

[MikeRiley]

Min saw so many things about Birgitte that they couldn't all happen in a lifetime, both with a younger man and an older. So it's a safe bet that she will meet with Gaidal in this lifetime and is still bound to the Horn.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Min saw so many things about Birgitte that they couldn't all happen in a lifetime, both with a younger man and an older. So it's a safe bet that she will meet with Gaidal in this lifetime and is still bound to the Horn.

To add to this.  Min only sees constant images around Channelers but Brigitte is the first hero of legends that she has ever seen.  There is only around a hundred of them so her seeing lots of futures around someone so bound to the pattern makes senses.

[mb]

Min only sees constant images around Channelers

Actually, also Warders.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

My guess is that he's in Kandor.  It's Birgitte's cover story, remember?  I imagine she might adopt him after TG.  I guess that kinda depends on the kind of connection Min saw.

[Malruhn]

Something to consider is an adult "reawakening".  If a man (Asha'man??) were to be "brain dead" or similar, Gaidal Cain COULD be introduced to that empty vessel and just "wake up".

 

Similarly, it could be that someone just has an epiphany and decides to be heroic.  Imagine if someone like Bayle Domon deciding to give up the sea and grabbing two swords... and being being inexplicably GOOD at using them...

 

Two things, though - I would expect that this empty vessel would be someone we've already met, AND he would be an unexpected entity (think of Aram as an armed Tinker!).

 

Just my two-cents.

[Durinax]

Something to consider is an adult "reawakening".  If a man (Asha'man??) were to be "brain dead" or similar, Gaidal Cain COULD be introduced to that empty vessel and just "wake up".

 

Similarly, it could be that someone just has an epiphany and decides to be heroic.  Imagine if someone like Bayle Domon deciding to give up the sea and grabbing two swords... and being being inexplicably GOOD at using them...

 

Two things, though - I would expect that this empty vessel would be someone we've already met, AND he would be an unexpected entity (think of Aram as an armed Tinker!).

 

Just my two-cents.

dont think it works like that

[MikeRiley]

But if it did, he would definitely take the body of the soulless ogier in Stedding Tsofu (the one whose soul the Black Wind ate). He's supposed to be ugly, after all!

[Reptyle]

My earlier post was in reference to what I thought would have been a nice twist to the plot, but in all honesty, I don't think she'll survive the series.

 

To put things right she'll need to die and be reborn to an age closer to Gaidal.

 

Plus, she's a woman out of her time and uncomfortable with the duties and honors bestowed upon her.

 

Not everyone is going to survive this series (I'm thinking) and I am betting she is one of the casualties.

[mb]

The only way for Birgitte to not survive this series is if the Pattern gets destroyed.

The mentioned Viewings indicate that she would survive this series.

 

[MikeRiley]

My earlier post was in reference to what I thought would have been a nice twist to the plot, but in all honesty, I don't think she'll survive the series.

 

To put things right she'll need to die and be reborn to an age closer to Gaidal.

 

Plus, she's a woman out of her time and uncomfortable with the duties and honors bestowed upon her.

 

Not everyone is going to survive this series (I'm thinking) and I am betting she is one of the casualties.

 

Elayne's death would free Birgitte from the Warder bond and those duties as well as give her a death wish. A young Gaidal could step in and be what keeps are from killing herself.

[Sid]

The only way for Birgitte to not survive this series is if the Pattern gets destroyed.

The mentioned Viewings indicate that she would survive this series.

 

Thanks for your comments all

 

I just remembered about the actual viewings Min had when she saw Birgitte in the palace in Camelyn, with RJ's comment about all of her viewings having to do with the future.  "...more than any one person's lifetime" might suggest being retied to the horn again.

 

Also, why then and not in LOC in Salidar?  Did something happen between the two times making her choose a path with a future rather than one without?

 

Sorry if this has been discussed before here several times  ;)

[mb]

I was implying the Viewings about a man that is both older and younger than Birgitte.  Those ones would need to happen before Birgitte dies since this spinning might be the only spinning where both are simultaneously older and younger than each other.

 

As for why then, maybe because Elayne became Aes Sedia between the two meetings.

 

Elayne's death would free Birgitte from the Warder bond and those duties as well as give her a death wish.

The earliest for Elayne's death would be after giving birth to the twins; which would likely happen after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

[tube_ee]

I thought that Olver was Gaidal... has that been disproved?

 

--Shannon

[jwillis7]

yes, by RJ

[FarShainMael]

He's already been reborn. He's less than a year old at the moment.

 

I don't think this is certain, is it? GC went missing from T'A'R (TFoH, Ch14) and Birgitte says that she thinks the Wheel has spun him out again. She doesn't know for certain. She's talking to Nyn, who muses 'If Birgitte was right..' To me, this leaves some room for doubt. Though for GC to have been ripped out of T'A'R would be a coincidence of, er, ta'veren proportions.