Question About The 'Reality' of LTT in Rand's Head in Relation To Falme/Bk 2

[The Fisher King]

It seems that Post-TGS, (especiall Post-Veins of Gold), the overriding opinion is that LTT was never a 'real' reincarnation of Lews Therin in Rand's head.

 

I am still not sure I by this. One thing I have never seen addressed about this is:

 

If LTT was NOT ever 'real' as Rand , then ...

 

WHY does Lanfear address Rand AS ''Lews Therin'' time and again, and why does Hawkwing, at Falme, look DIRECTLY at Rand and say ''It was always women that got you in trouble, LEWS THERIN.''

 

???

 

 

Fish

[Majsju]

Whether or not the LTT persona in Rands head were real is quite irrelevant to Lanfear and Hawkwing adressing him as Lews Therin. Lanfear knows Rand is her dear LTT reborn, and that is how she sees him, even if the body and personality are new. Hawkwing recognises the soul, and it is as LTT he knows that soul.

[The Fisher King]

Ok. Wells, if Rand has LTT's Soul in him and if Rand IS Lews Therin Reborn and if Artur Hawkwing and Lanfear both recognize Rand AS Lews Therin....then...see where I'm going, lol??

 

Can we really be sure that Rand's Voice WASN'T LTT?

 

I won't even go into his knowledge and memories of events and people from Lews Therin's time. (I never bought the wishywashy and unsupported 'theories' that Rand's knowledge came from tears in The Pattern, The Wheel spinning him back out AS a reborn LTT etc...just FAR too much conjecture for my tastes lol.)

 

Oh, also: Artur, Lanfear and countless others aren't all like ''You know, Rand Al Thor sure does seem SIMILAR and REMIND us of Lews Therin Telamon.''

 

They DIRECTLY address Rand AS Lews Therin!! ... Biiiig Diff! ... Have you ever asked yourself WHY this is? ;)

 

 

Fish

[Majsju]

Ok. Wells, if Rand has LTT's Soul in him and if Rand IS Lews Therin Reborn and if Artur Hawkwing and Lanfear both recognize Rand AS Lews Therin....then...see where I'm going, lol??

 

Can we really be sure that Rand's Voice WASN'T LTT?

 

No, we can not be sure, we only have Rands own thoughts to go on, and we do not yet know if he was correct. However, whatever Lanfear and Hawkwing said is completely irrelevant when it comes to making any assumptions.

 

I won't even go into his knowledge and memories of events and people from Lews Therin's time. (I never bought the wishywashy and unsupported 'theories' that Rand's knowledge came from tears in The Pattern, The Wheel spinning him back out AS a reborn LTT etc...just FAR too much conjecture for my tastes lol.)

 

The Wheel did spin Rand out as a reborn LTT, that is what being the Dragon Reborn means. There is nothing to "buy" here.

 

Oh, also: Artur, Lanfear and countless others aren't all like ''You know, Rand Al Thor sure does seem SIMILAR and REMIND us of Lews Therin Telamon.''

 

They DIRECTLY address Rand AS Lews Therin!! ... Biiiig Diff! ... Have you ever asked yourself WHY this is?

 

Hawkwing recognizes the soul of a fellow Hero of the Horn. Lanfear does not even recognize LTTs soul, she simply knows that Rand being the Dragon Reborn means he is LTT reborn, and Lanfear being the person she is wants her LTT back, rather than some sheepherd.

 

The questions you are raising concerns whether or not Rand has the same soul as LTT. Which really is not a question at all, wde know this for a fact. It is however completely irrelevant information when it comes to guessing whether or not LTT was a real voice, or just a construct by Rand to deal with his increasing insanity.

[The Fisher King]

No, lol, I know that Rand really is Re-Spun as LTT. I just meant that I do know buy him being LTT Reborn as a factor in why he has had access to knowledge and memories of LTT'S Life and Time.

 

 

Fish

[Ashaman Drasil]

their right LTT voice was made by rand to cope with the memories he was reciving from being the dragon reborn. hawking reconized a fellow hero and a friend that was it and lanfer knew that he was the dragon rebor that was sh cared about

 

the only argument i could see for him being real was the fact in knife of dreams how LTT's voice took control of saidin and layed west to the trollocs and drew about all the saidin he could unaided

 

the reason he has the memoris is because he is LTT reborn remember that moriane or verin, said that sometimes they got memories from their past life

[The Fisher King]

Yeah, in KOD LTT Controlled Saiderin in his own right!

 

Rand had to bargain with him to get it back, remember?

 

Who are supposed to believe Rand was bargaining with lol - Himself???

 

 

Fish

[Knobs Mahoney]

I think you're splitting hairs, Fisher King.

 

If a person (in our world) has multiple personality disorder, the extra personalities are all made up by that person in order to cope with some trauma or whatever. These personalities are not real, but the actions commited by the person while under the "influence" of that personality are no less real for being initiated by a false persona.

 

I can't imagine how difficult it would be to grow up in a world where parents frightened you with tales of men channeling, going insane, and killing everyone they love...then you find out you can channel...and not only that, that you are supposedly the Rebirth of the man who destroyed the world 3000 years before your birth...and that even if you save the world this time around, chances are you're going to cause a lot of damage again.

 

I could see myself needing some sort of coping mechanism in the light of all that knowledge. I'd probably just drink rather than compartmentalize a new personality, but to each his own.

 

After his emotional catharsis (I'm paraphrasing here) he realizes that he will never hear Lews Therin's voice again, because they were not two different men and never had been. This fits very well with a multiple personality/schizophrenia disorder. One of the chief therapeutic methods psychologists use with people suffering from multiple personality disorder is to force them to confront their personalities. Yes, this is a world of might and magic, but Semirhage herself was a renowned physician and psychologist in the Age of Legends, so that implies that a science of the mind holds some water in Randland. Further, Semirhage stating that (paraphrasing again) Rand was crazy, and that it didn't matter (in fact made it worse) that the voice in Rand's head was a real person further reinforces a position that Rand's personality split.

 

Imagine that your multiple personality's name is Charles Barkeley. You pretend to be the NBA superstar and badboy, but you're white and 12 inches too short, with all the grace of a pregnant yak on the basketball court. Hilarity ensues. Rand, however, IS Lews Therin Telamon reborn, so he has his own voice in his head only the voice is "crazy"...the very thing Rand fears most to become.

 

Anyway, I've beaten a dead horse enough here. To answer you, yes, you are supposed to believe he's bargaining with himself...because he was.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Knobs.

 

I don't agree with all of it, but I did read every word of it and appreciate how well thought-out it was.

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

You might consider some supporting evidence. Rand has had memories from an old life coming to him long before he's heard LTT's voice. Even discounting the weaves he somehow discovered (and I'm comfortable with that because all sparkers seem to have a familiarity with the Source), he had a weird reaction to Lanfear when they met in the Stone of Tear, and he spoke to Asmodean as if he knew Sammael during the battle in Cairhien. But when did he start hearing LTT's voice? After losing Moiraine (which he treats as his own fault). It could be just the natural progression of LTT's link with Rand. But more likely, his loosen grip on reality makes him put a front on his own madness, paranoia and insecurities.

[morkhon]

Knobs, that explanation doesn't take into account that Rand knows thing that he shouldn't. He has LTT's memories and recollections. People think that it was just that, and 'the voice' was some form of mental coping? I'm not sure I buy that myself. That voice isn't just some personality Rand has created. It is LTT's personality. A personality known by people who knew LTT (Lanfear, other Forsaken, etc), but not by Rand.

 

Right now I'm more interested in trying to pintpoint the event that turned 'LTT's voice' from sane, lucid comments (when it first appeared in TFoH) into a rambling madman. Something triggered that transformation. At first I thought it was Taim's arrival that really set LTT off, but Rand makes a comment to himself that the voice was already becoming erratic before that. So now I'm leaning more towards his battle -in the flesh- in Tel'aran'rhoid vs. Rahvin. Going there in the flesh can have some strange effects, and maybe one of those effects on Rand was LTT starting to grow unstable. Also in that battle at one point Rand starts to...'turn into' LTT. It's a strange sequence. Rand decides it's just Rahvin messing with him. Could he have been wrong about that?

[Lord D]

I don't recall LTT ever being anything except crazy in Rand's head, and he actually had good reason for it.  Even if he wasn't mad with the power, he'd be mad from what he did to earn the name Kinslayer.

 

I don't think it's just a coping mechanism.  There are many occasions in the books where LTT speaks of past battles or cities, and he imparts new weaves to Rand.  Also, remember at Dumai's Wells how LTT helps Rand squeeze through the tied-off shields, thus freeing himself.

 

I interpret the finale of tGS as Rand and LTT merging with each other, as per Min's vision.  Rand is still his own person, but he now has all of LTT's memories and knowledge.

[alligator]

Doesn't Rand begin to develop habits that were particular to LTT? Like, being a good artist, or humming when he saw a pretty woman?

[The Fisher King]

EXACTLY!!!

 

Also thumbing his earlobe when The First of Mayne is around too, lol.

 

 

Fish

[Charlz Fel]

Mat also starts to develop habits from his extra memories, like speaking the old tongue (in a variety of accents, no less), or commanding a horse with his knees, or seeing a piece of terrain and immediately starting to plan an ambush there.  No one claims that Mat has a "real" voice in his head.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Comanding a horse with his knees so was he a Hun in a past life. Hey did anyone notice that the seanchan have recurve bows? Does any other culture in the series have 'em? Well we see horse archers a la Hunnish horse archers. They were quite effective in battle. Sorry nothing to do with topic.

The voice in his head could well be himself but it does seem that Lews has a different personality (mannerisms might be better here) and memories, and aren't not what define us. So yes Lews and Rand are the same soul but they are not the same person so in my view the voice in his head isn't a coping mechanisim but the actual voice of Lews coming through on some weird transmiiter that crosses time and space, possible due to the taint. So to sum up Rand equals Lews and vice versa. The are they same soul but different peole due to their expierances,actions,memorries and so forth. In saying that Rand and Lews do share some comman traits observed by other characters. Hawkings mentions something about woman always being his downfall and doesn't Lanfear make comments that imply that they have simliarities.

Okay maybe the voice is just Rand but its Rand accessing memories from a past life so its not Rand but Lews. Am I making any sense. Rand and Lews are the one soul but diff blokes 'cause of different lives. ???

[morkhon]

I don't recall LTT ever being anything except crazy in Rand's head, and he actually had good reason for it.  Even if he wasn't mad with the power, he'd be mad from what he did to earn the name Kinslayer.

When the voice first starts appearing in TFoH, he's perfectly sane and lucid and provides rational comments. Something triggered the transition to the voice of a madman. I think the battle against Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod was the catalyst somehow. Something there changed the way the 'voice of LTT' works or interacts with Rand.

 

Edit - As far as the voice just being Rand's coping mechanism...I don't agree. Obviously he has LTT's memories, and starts picking up and exhibiting some of the other man's habits and mannerisms. Why? He's the Dragon Reborn. It's right there in his title. He is LTT reborn. Now, exactly what that means is open to some interpretation. Do they share the same soul/essence? Exactly how do you define the soul? What makes Rand Rand? Or LTT LTT? Or anyone anyone? The fact remains he is LTT Reborn. Was LTT that very same soul reborn as well? Did he ever hear voices? Is this a new development? If so, why? There's a reason. There's a reason for such a critical element of the story. And I have a hunch it's a little more deep and involved than 'so Rand could cope'.

[Charlz Fel]

I don't recall LTT ever being anything except crazy in Rand's head, and he actually had good reason for it.  Even if he wasn't mad with the power, he'd be mad from what he did to earn the name Kinslayer.

When the voice first starts appearing in TFoH, he's perfectly sane and lucid and provides rational comments. Something triggered the transition to the voice of a madman. I think the battle against Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod was the catalyst somehow. Something there changed the way the 'voice of LTT' works or interacts with Rand.

 

Edit - As far as the voice just being Rand's coping mechanism...I don't agree. Obviously he has LTT's memories, and starts picking up and exhibiting some of the other man's habits and mannerisms. Why? He's the Dragon Reborn. It's right there in his title. He is LTT reborn. Now, exactly what that means is open to some interpretation. Do they share the same soul/essence? Exactly how do you define the soul? What makes Rand Rand? Or LTT LTT? Or anyone anyone? The fact remains he is LTT Reborn. Was LTT that very same soul reborn as well? Did he ever hear voices? Is this a new development? If so, why? There's a reason. There's a reason for such a critical element of the story. And I have a hunch it's a little more deep and involved than 'so Rand could cope'.

 

The deepest and most involved elements of the WoT are the characters.  Plot, worldbuilding, etc., are almost secondary compared to the characterization.  I recall seeing an interview somewhere in which RJ claimed that the basic idea behind the Wheel of Time is this: What's it like to be tapped on the shoulder as the savior of the world?  And, by the way, you're doomed to Break the World as well, and to go insane and die horribly from your ability to channel?  What is it like to have to cope with all these pressures?

[morkhon]

The deepest and most involved elements of the WoT are the characters.  Plot, worldbuilding, etc., are almost secondary compared to the characterization.  I recall seeing an interview somewhere in which RJ claimed that the basic idea behind the Wheel of Time is this: What's it like to be tapped on the shoulder as the savior of the world?  And, by the way, you're doomed to Break the World as well, and to go insane and die horribly from your ability to channel?  What is it like to have to cope with all these pressures?

Not sure. Inventing a voice in your head to constantly remind you that you're going nuts?  ;D

[Dreamwalker]

Early in the series Rand has access to some knowledge from his past life as LTT, but he does not yet hear the voice. However, every time he catches himself knowing something or remembering something, he freaks out a bit thinking that he must be going mad, and he refuses to accept it as a part of him. His mind can't wrap itself around the fact that he is LTT reborn and that he can remember these things - because that is something that would be hard for anyone to grasp. Not to mention that he just doesn't want to accept that he is the same man that killed everyone he loved and broke the world.

 

As he channels more his insanity starts to develop into a voice and personality (which are in fact based on Rand's memories of his past life as LTT) so that Rand can still see himself as a separate person from LTT because he doesn't want to be LTT - he's developing multiple personality disorder from his madness. As he suffers torture in the box the voice gets much worse and he starts talking to it more - this supports that he keeps using it as a coping mechanism and his condition progresses.

 

Eventually he sees this personality as so real that he sees LTT as actually being able to seize and weave saidin in KoD. The weaves Rand uses while thinking it is LTT in control are simply weaves coming from the memories of LTT that Rand has. This is the same as he did early in the series (before the voice) when he remembered weaves out of nowhere and used them but now he uses his coping mechanism of his "LTT" personality so that he doesn't have to admit he is the same man (and also because at this point he really is mad from the taint on saidin).

 

As long as he had the LTT voice he could see himself as a separate person from LTT, but in Veins of Gold he finally confronts the fact that he is the same man. He remembers the day that he killed his family, seeing their bodies, seeing Ilyena. He even remembers killing himself. And because he finally accepts that that was him, not some other guy, that did those things, the voice finally goes away - "For they were not two men, and never had been."

[Calderis]

You might consider some supporting evidence. Rand has had memories from an old life coming to him long before he's heard LTT's voice. Even discounting the weaves he somehow discovered (and I'm comfortable with that because all sparkers seem to have a familiarity with the Source), he had a weird reaction to Lanfear when they met in the Stone of Tear, and he spoke to Asmodean as if he knew Sammael during the battle in Cairhien. But when did he start hearing LTT's voice? After losing Moiraine (which he treats as his own fault). It could be just the natural progression of LTT's link with Rand. But more likely, his loosen grip on reality makes him put a front on his own madness, paranoia and insecurities.

 

This is, IMO, exactly right.

 

The personality being similar isn't something that you can say "he got from LTT" because it's the same personality. He may not have all the memories, but at the core they are the same person. The voice as coping mechanism came about shortly after Rand lost Moiraine and blamed himself. Other's had already died for him, even women. Moiraine was the first women he had any kind of prolonged relationship with. She served as a guide and saw him change from the simple two rivers boy, to the DR, and beyond. It was someone that he realized he could trust, and she died for him. Fear of becomeing another "kinslayer" is what created the "coping mechanism." The memery crossovers and the weaves happened well before LTT's voice (stone of tear and the lightning storm anyone?).

 

As far as incidents where LTT grabbed the source from him. Think about it. he is literally fighting himself. It's something that he feels he should do, but can't agree with. killing Taim outright for instance. He's been raised his entire life to fear men who can channel. It doesn't matter that he's one of them it's ingrained. So LTT acts off of rand's own feelings and fears. LTT didn't suggest killing Aes Sedai until after DW. Again, Rand's own emotions warring with his conscious brain.

 

At the end of TGS he just realizes that it's always been him. The voice was him. Showing what he was scared of becoming, rationalizing the memories, and at times forcing him to do the things he could not bring himself to do.

 

Early in the series Rand has access to some knowledge from his past life as LTT, but he does not yet hear the voice. However, every time he catches himself knowing something or remembering something, he freaks out a bit thinking that he must be going mad, and he refuses to accept it as a part of him. His mind can't wrap itself around the fact that he is LTT reborn and that he can remember these things - because that is something that would be hard for anyone to grasp. Not to mention that he just doesn't want to accept that he is the same man that killed everyone he loved and broke the world.

 

As he channels more his insanity starts to develop into a voice and personality (which are in fact based on Rand's memories of his past life as LTT) so that Rand can still see himself as a separate person from LTT because he doesn't want to be LTT - he's developing multiple personality disorder from his madness. As he suffers torture in the box the voice gets much worse and he starts talking to it more - this supports that he keeps using it as a coping mechanism and his condition progresses.

 

Eventually he sees this personality as so real that he sees LTT as actually being able to seize and weave saidin in KoD. The weaves Rand uses while thinking it is LTT in control are simply weaves coming from the memories of LTT that Rand has. This is the same as he did early in the series (before the voice) when he remembered weaves out of nowhere and used them but now he uses his coping mechanism of his "LTT" personality so that he doesn't have to admit he is the same man (and also because at this point he really is mad from the taint on saidin).

 

As long as he had the LTT voice he could see himself as a separate person from LTT, but in Veins of Gold he finally confronts the fact that he is the same man. He remembers the day that he killed his family, seeing their bodies, seeing Ilyena. He even remembers killing himself. And because he finally accepts that that was him, not some other guy, that did those things, the voice finally goes away - "For they were not two men, and never had been."

 

Well said.

[Shadow Rider]

This is the same with Mat...he see's memories in his head and see's them as his own...in Rands case because of the madness, LTT's memories split into a separate personality but if you think about it....Rand and LTT never actually had a conversation....they were just memories....LTT could have been talking to the previous Dragon.

[Shard]

The voice was never real, otherwise I would think it would have been much harder to get rid of LTT. Jordan was excellent in throwing in red herrings to make it seem like LTT was conversing with Rand or making observations on what was going on. The truth was that Rand had created a split personality based on leaked memories, the same way that Mat got. Lanfear and Artur refer to Rand as LTT because he WAS him in a past life. However he is currently Rand NOW. This is how reincarnation works, the old life is gone however the memories can be summoned up.

 

In Toasim apparently it is posssible to delve into past lives, this is what happened in the Avatar cartoon series. The Avatar could summon up his past lives but all they were was a collection of memories still in his head. He was still and always Ang. Same with Rand, he summoned up memories of LTT because he used to be LTT. Lanfear wanted to MAKE him LTT again.

 

This is also what Dracula tried to do with Mina and what Barnabas tries with Maggie in Dark Shadows. They want to use those memories of the past to re-create the person they used to be.

 

In Rands case though he has banised those voices he used to cope with trails of the Taint and how to channel.

 

Even Egwene was starting to understand bits of the Old Tongue back in the EotW.

 

Rand is Rand, LTT was just and always was a faded memory that Lanfear and Artur could both see.

[Owayn The Traveller]

So was Lews Therin/Rand just spun out the once since the war of power,the once being him now. Could he had been spun out others times and just not as the dragon reborn. Didn't someone mention fighting agaisnt him?

[morkhon]

This is the same with Mat...he see's memories in his head and see's them as his own...in Rands case because of the madness, LTT's memories split into a separate personality but if you think about it....Rand and LTT never actually had a conversation....they were just memories....LTT could have been talking to the previous Dragon.

It is not like Mat. Mat is not any of those people Reborn. He just had their memories stuffed in his head. Rand is LTT Reborn, and that is a different matter. If Rand heard LTT's voice because of the madness, why does it persist after he cleansed saidin?