Who Do You Think WILL and SHOULD Sound The Horn of Valere at The Last Battle???!

[The Fisher King]

Ok Mates, while hanging out mostly at my parents' old house assisting in helping to take care of my stepdad, who is a bit under the weather these days, I have thought on this subject quite deeply...Sometimes, when access to The World Wide Web/Information Super Highway is limited, and you're missin all your pals out there in cyberspace and wonderin how theyre doing, thinkin is all you got lol!!!

 

Ok...We now officially know that Matrim Cauthon of Two-Rivers Fame is NOT The ''Hornsounder'' no more ... as his link to it was broken through death...The Late Mr Jordan many times confirmed this and that Cauthon DID die by getting ZAPPED by Sammael's Magic Lightening that time that Avhienda got all Crispy-Fried too in Flames of Heaven (Book 5)

 

Yes, in Mr Jordon's illustrious words, ''Yes, yes, Rand Balefired/Retconned that deal but the death still 'counted' .''

 

HOWEVER. I have always felt that Mat still maintained some subconcious feeling of personal responsibilty to The Horn and to the job of being Mr Hornsounder at TG/The Last Battle.

 

So, I can still see Mat tooting it...although, with all his newer responsiblities, he might be too busy being a general and everything.

 

Buuut...Has anyone pondered...If Cauthon is NOT the one to sound it at TG, who would be a nifty and sensible choice for Team Light TO sound it???

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

This is news to me, actually. It sounds intriguing. I really don't have much to add, but it may explain... something that can't be talked about here, yet. Just remembered that, lol.

[ravenfier]

Then new sounder of the horn will be Thom or Oliver.

 

I dont think that it will be either Mat of Perrin, seeing how they will both have armies to lead. Perrin with his wolves and Mat just being the supreme comander of the forces of the light, theyd both be too busy to play horn sounder.

 

My reason for Thom- Just because, it be cool to see him take up an active role in the last battle, we know that the horn will sound by the horn sounder and some one will have to be the standard barrer as well, i just cant picture Thom just waving a flag ;).

 

Reason for Oliver- His story is not done, he'd be perfet for the job, seeing how no one would notice the kid till it was to late to stop him from sounding the horn, heck he could even be the person to keep a hold of it while they all ride to the LB. No one notices the cat untill its to late, and it seems that oliver is the cat here.

[OptimusPrime]

Nice topic Fish.

 

One thing. You say RJ said Mats death counted... didnt he mean it counted as the "die and live again" thing from the Finns? I always thought Mat got his connection to the Horn back when Rahvin was balefired, is there anywhere where RJ states clearly that Mat isnt linked to it anymore?

[Majsju]

Nice topic Fish.

 

One thing. You say RJ said Mats death counted... didnt he mean it counted as the "die and live again" thing from the Finns? I always thought Mat got his connection to the Horn back when Rahvin was balefired, is there anywhere where RJ states clearly that Mat isnt linked to it anymore?

 

Yup, that is exactly what RJ was talking about, there were no mention of what the death meant in regards to Mats connection to the Horn.

 

Given what we know about how balefire works, I would say we can be fairly certain Mat is still connected to the Horn.

[OptimusPrime]

Thats what I was thinking as well, the connection between Mat and the Horn never broke technically.

[redarm]

I agree.  Mat will be the hornblower.  And I think he leads the heroes in battle.  He is a great commander and the heroes will recognise this.

[The Fisher King]

Hi everybody.

 

I think one very important thing regarding this deal is the conversation held between Siuan Sanche and Mat in Book 3 (I apologize for not remembering which chapter.)

 

The Amyrilin Seat (Sanche) makes it pretty clear that Death would sever Mat's connection to the Horn Deal.

 

Well...RJ confirmed that Mat's demise at the end of Book 5, FOH, counted as Death...

 

Soooo..............

 

Yall with me here lol? ;)

 

 

Fish

[OptimusPrime]

Can we get the quote where RJ goes into it please dude?

[Majsju]

RJ confirmed that Mats death in Caemlyn fulfilled the finns prophecy of 'die and live again'. But considering how balefire works, the effects of his death, including severing the bond with the Horn, were undone the moment Rand blasted Rahvin into last week. Or to put it another way, Mat died, but the Horn was never told about it.

[OptimusPrime]

Exactly. Mat and Aviendha were brought back exactly the way they were, because Rahvin didnt actually kill them.

[The Fisher King]

He DID kill them. No doubt about this point.

 

And Mat's death here served the prohpecy.

 

Mat and Aviehnda are alive ONLY because of Rand using Balefire - NOT because Rahvin didn't really kill them.

 

 

Fish

[Majsju]

Another thing that further shows that Mat will blow the Horn again - Norse religion. It is a well established fact that Mat is based on Oden, the Allfather. One of the things not mentioned very often is what Oden does during Ragnarök - he leads the einherjar, those who died bravely on the battlefield (ie Heroes) into battle. Sounds in any way familiar? ;)

[ErikTheBald]

Rahvin did kill mat.

 

Then Rand Balefired Rahvin

 

And at that point, Rahvin DIDN'T  kill Matt.

 

Based on the text.  The effect of balefire is that the actions of one BF'd "had no longer taken place"  therefore, Mat had not been killed and therefore his bond to the horn was not broken.

[The Fisher King]

Gosh, I have HATED seeing all these threads and debates for soooo many years about how Balefire works. Its really pretty simple.

 

Its simple (but people get confused by this still anyways):

 

Balefires undoes the ACTIONS but NOT the EFFECTS of Those Actions!!!

 

In other words, The Dragon Reborn's Balefiring of Rahvin caused Mat Cauthon and Avi to not be dead anymore but it did NOT mean that they weren't still KILLED by Rav.

 

This is how, in RJ's own words of confirmation, the prophecy of Mat's death WAS fullfilled.

 

Just remember the most important aspect of Balefire 101: It undoes Actions, but not the Effects of those actions ;)

 

I never struggled with that distinction...must be because Im a fairly remarkable fellow ;)

 

 

Fish

[Majsju]

 

 

Balefires undoes the ACTIONS but NOT the EFFECTS of Those Actions!!!

 

 

 

That is not correct. Best example would be when Moghedien balefires Nynaeves boat in Ebou Dar. Nynaeves rowers are balefired, which undoes their action: rowing the boat, and the effect of that action: moving the boat forward. The boat sank where it was hit in the new timeline, not where it was actually hit.

 

 

[The Fisher King]

I think the problem lies in the very subtle distinction between 'Actions' and 'Effects.'

 

I was joking in my last post, but, this really is how I have always seen it. Its the only rational way BF can be percieved considering all its inherent paradoxes.

 

I have always felt like Rand's memories are a good example of what I'm saying.

 

For example, even though his use of BF undid the effects of Rahvin's Killing of Mat and Avi...he STILL REMEMBERS seeing them both Dead!!!

 

Look at it like this:

 

The ACTION that was undone was The Killing...But The effect of that action was them being dead.

 

Rahvin killing them was reveresd/undone and this is obviously why they now live.

 

But the effect was NOT undone...they still DID die (This is how Rand can remember seeing them lying dead and this also is why RJ has confirmed the prophecy of Mat's dying was able to be fullfilled.)

 

This also, to somehow try to salvage a connection back to the original point of this thread, why it could be theorized that Mat is no longer technically bound to the Horn of Valere...unless Siuan was incorrect in Book 3 when she told him that his death would break his binding to the Horn.

 

If he was dead enough to fullfill a prophecy - even though he was balefired back to life - then he was dead enough to cause a severing of his link to the Horn to last.

 

:)

 

 

Fish

 

 

[Majsju]

The example with Nynaeve I gave clearly proves your assumptions of actions and effects wrong, simple as that. What is in the books always trjumps readers assumptions. Always.

 

That people still have memories of things that were undone is an inherent paradoxes that is well established in pretty much every case we have seen. Nynaeve remembering having covered the distance that were undone, Mat remembering having the darkhound slobbering all over his arm, Rand remembering Mat and Avi dying, etc. But the memories remaining does not make the effects any less undone. Had that been the case, Mat would have died from the Darkounds saliva, Nynaeve would not have come so close to drowning, and thus would still have her block, etc.

 

Think of the memories as hallucinations, and it might be easier for you.

[OptimusPrime]

Balefires undoes the ACTIONS but NOT the EFFECTS of Those Actions!!!

 

Using that same logic, riddle me this.

 

Rahvin kills Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean with lightening. Rand then balefires Rahvin, making it so Rahvin never created the lightening. What happens to Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean?

 

There is a massive clue at the end of TFOH.

 

Next question: why did Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean come back to life with their clothes and whatnot intact? Because the lightening had not actually hit them. EVER. Anything that changed as a result of any of them dying no longer applies.

 

As far as the Pattern is concerned, Mat has never died. Hence, any connections he had to anything would still be in place; he was brought back as he was before he was *not* killed.

[Elvira_Sedai]

The true question is WHY Suian thought that the first , who blows the Horn will be linked with it . RJ himself said that the Horn was never used before since , may be , two Ages ( as Majsju said may be Odin was the last hornblower till Mat ) , so no one could be sure about link , it's the myth at best .

  So , I think that the key of calling the Heroes is not the link with Horn , but the Need of the Pattern ( remember , not for Glory think , just for Salvation thing ) .

  My theory is based on similarity of the words " Valere " and " al'Vere " . Also , the Horn is now in the WT , Mesaana is also here and the 13/13 trick for turn a channeler for Shadow still waits their hour ... So , I think , Egwene will be the next one , who will call the Heroes of the Horn to save her , the Amyrlin Seat and one of the key players during TG from being turning to the Dark Side .

[HuntSeat_Hero]

Does severing the original link prevent Mat from blowing the Horn in the future?  If a link is required to Sound the Horn, that would present a problem, as neither Thom, Rand, or Olver has a link to the Horn.  In my humble opinion, just an opinion, Mat can still blow the Horn even if his link to it has been severed by his "death".  Severing that link does not give him less rights to the Horn compared to anyone else.

[The Fisher King]

Drekka Mort (and, to a lesser extent, Maj)

 

: Then WHY was the prophecy fullfilled???!

 

 

Fish

[bronnt]

Drekka Mort (and, to a lesser extent, Maj)

 

: Then WHY was the prophecy fullfilled???!

 

 

Fish

 

The prophecy was a word-twist.  The physical mechanics of the world aren't so easily manipulated as an obtuse sentence.

[OptimusPrime]

Drekka Mort (and, to a lesser extent, Maj)

 

: Then WHY was the prophecy fullfilled???!

 

 

Fish

 

Because the event did actually happen. Mat really was dead for a time and then was alive again. All that was said (by the Finns, not prophecy IIRC) was that he would die and live again. He did die, but the event that caused his death was removed from the Pattern-not history, because Rand remembers it-and so that means technically Mat didnt die-so he was brought back exactly how he was before Rahvin didnt actually fry him. The death that broke Mats connection to the Horn didnt happen. What else would happen to a connection to something that never broke? It stays the way it is.

 

Fish, if I come across as being funny with you or sarcastic, I apologize as I dont mean to be like that. Hope you havent taken offense to any of this.

[The Fisher King]

LOL - Not at ALL!!!

 

And that was a REALLY good explanation of the situation - as was Maj's - I still just disagree a little bit about the technicalities of it though LOL!!! - But thats what its all about! :)

 

Bronnt...when you say a word twist...do you mean by The Pattern, by The Finns or by RJ himself lol? ;)

 

 

Fish