How does Ishamel get his name?

[bronnt]

One thing I've never understood is exactly what Ishamael was during the War of Power.  His name means "Betrayer of Hope," and it's a very grand name, meaning he must have gotten it in grand fashion.  Sammael might more literally deserve that name, as he betrayed a gate during the War, bringing the Shadow into Rorn M'doi and Satelle, but he's called "Destroyer of Hope," instead.  We don't really know much about what Elan was before the War, aside from being an acclaimed philosopher (I personally think he was much more than that), and I'm not sure it's even mentioned exactly when and how he was turned to the Shadow.

 

Does anyone know more about that took place?  I can't find a good answer anywhere on the boards, but I have been searching.

[acerbus80]

Ishmael turned to the Shadow after coming to the conclusion that the battle they were fighting wasn't a singular event, but had been happening for eternity, and would happen for the rest of eternity, until the Wheel of Time was destroyed.  Given the odds over eternity, he was pretty certain it would happen eventually.

 

His basic philosophy was the old 'if you can't beat them, join them.'

 

I believe there are some references to exactly how he got the name he has, but I can't remember for certain.

[Durinax]

I think he is called the betrayer of hope because he orchastrated a whole bunch of important events. He probably was a tactical general, doing the same type of stuff we have seen him do in the series. Who knows how he got the name, maybe a clever coupe de tate?

[Thera500]

I think he is called the betrayer of hope because he orchastrated a whole bunch of important events. He probably was a tactical general, doing the same type of stuff we have seen him do in the series.

 

*Nods Head* I agree with Durinax,in that Ishy was a grand scale player.I remember reading though that he was more of a thinking man then a tactitian at the time.I think it was more about the fact that he stood extremely high amongst aes sedai,equal to Lews Therin in power, I think its more the fact that after a year of dreadful struggle against the shadow he said "Sorry chaps,I dont think there's anyway we're going to win so im of to Shayol Ghul,Ill be seeing you at doomsday"(My interpretation of his words).I may be mistaken,but I think that can be quite depressing to hear.

[bronnt]

I think he is called the betrayer of hope because he orchastrated a whole bunch of important events. He probably was a tactical general, doing the same type of stuff we have seen him do in the series. Who knows how he got the name, maybe a clever coupe de tate?

 

I'm just a bit bummed because we know LESS about who he was in the AoL than we do about several others, but he's one of the more significant characters of the era.  And I loved the view we get of him in tGS-it gives us more insight into him than we've really ever had before.

 

Heck, the most information we get about him comes in the prologue of EotW.  For one, he really must have really been one sinister dude at the time, since LTT recognized his name even through his fog of insanity.  And tGS really piqued my curious about him some more-he was supposedly humbled by LTT in the Hall of Servants, but we don't really know how, or how that came about.

[Luckers]

Ishamael was a nihilistic philosopher. His beliefs and ideals, by there very nature, betray the concept of hope.

 

Also too it was Ishamael that work behind the scene to begin with to bring people to the Dark One before they knew who the Dark One was--doubtlessly that included offering people answers (and thus hope) to people in the uncertain times of the Collapse. That too he ultimately betrayed when he revealed the Dark One's true nature and intentions to the world.

[bronnt]

Ishamael was a nihilistic philosopher. His beliefs and ideals, by there very nature, betray the concept of hope.

 

Also too it was Ishamael that work behind the scene to begin with to bring people to the Dark One before they knew who the Dark One was--doubtlessly that included offering people answers (and thus hope) to people in the uncertain times of the Collapse. That too he ultimately betrayed when he revealed the Dark One's true nature and intentions to the world.

 

It makes sense, but it also leaves us without a definitive moment, event, or skill that branded him his name.  We've got that with several of the others, or at least a general of how they ended up serving the dark.  Like Lanfear considers Tel'aran'rhiod her own domain, so she called herself the Daughter of the Night.  She tortures people in their dreams-and it fits.  We don't really see the fit with Ishy.  We have good information for Aginor, Sammael, Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana, but not very much on the grand head honcho.

 

I'd like to think that he was a great hero of the Light, and was doing extensive research on how to defeat the DO, but his research made him increasingly bleak about the future, until he's the nihilist we see now.  Perhaps he even discovered the secret to sealing away the DO, and took that information with him when he went to the Shadow.  It's clear he knows more about the nature of the Pattern that almost all the other characters combined-somehow he knows that he's fought LTT thousands of times with the turning of the Wheel.

[Graendals favourite]

I think the moment he made his speech in, wherever it was, the he revealed it was the Dark One who was behind all the evil and that he was at his side, that was what made him the Betrayer of Hope. He was one of the first to go over. Graendal did as well, with her disappointment and disgust at civilisation in general, as did Lanfear with her thirst for power. Sammael and Demandred for instance only turned a hundred years later, when the War of Power had begun. Semirhage, when her pleasures had been denied.

[Myyrth]

Yeah he made this grand speech before all the Aes Sedai, advocating that they join with the Great Lord.  He was then cast out or some such thing.

[Agitel]

Yeah he made this grand speech before all the Aes Sedai, advocating that they join with the Great Lord.  He was then cast out or some such thing.

 

Lews Therin laid the verbal smackdown on Ishy and humbled him in the Hall of Servants in Paaran Disen.

[Crael123]

Yeah he made this grand speech before all the Aes Sedai, advocating that they join with the Great Lord.  He was then cast out or some such thing.

 

Lews Therin laid the verbal smackdown on Ishy and humbled him in the Hall of Servants in Paaran Disen.

 

i always thought it was a war and then lews therin humiliated him

[Agitel]

Yeah he made this grand speech before all the Aes Sedai, advocating that they join with the Great Lord.  He was then cast out or some such thing.

 

Lews Therin laid the verbal smackdown on Ishy and humbled him in the Hall of Servants in Paaran Disen.

 

i always thought it was a war and then lews therin humiliated him

 

Ishamael is quoted as saying "You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen." I guess you could consider them to be the same thing, but I've interpreted them to be separate. What better place for Elan to make his argument before the Aes Sedai than before the top? And if it was before the top, it would have been before Lews Therin, as Lews Therin was first among Aes Sedai. Just before the above quotes, he says "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyr lin, and sat in the High Seat."

[bronnt]

Yeah he made this grand speech before all the Aes Sedai, advocating that they join with the Great Lord.  He was then cast out or some such thing.

 

Where do we learn this?  I don't know where this comes from-is it RJ, or did I seriously miss something?

[Vexorian]

Overall he probably got his name from his speech in the Hall of Servants. Since he was perhaps a very respected man for his power and his knowledge the fact HE declared for the dark one tore a huge chasm between people's thoughts. Just picture that one of your most greatest idols one day openly declares for terrorism or such. You would be pretty torn inside wouldn't you?  So the result was that probably sparked a lot of people to follow him or completly denounce him.  So perhaps "Betrayer of Hope?"

 

One thing that I wonder is if he gave his speech in the Hall of Servants INFRONT of all the top Aes Sedai... Why didn't one of them just balefire him on the spot? or at least shield him and eventually still him? Or is there just more to it than I'm reading into?

[Graendals favourite]

This was during the Collapse, when not much was known about ailed the world, with food crops failing and sickness and all that kind of stuff. However, it was not a war at that point. If someone in today's world was expected to find a cure to the worlds evils, not that we have them to a comparable degree, and then when they reveal what the source is, a Dark One whose prison broke in that failed experiment all those years back, I don't think people could immediately prison them even if they said they were on his side.

[Thor]

Ishamael turned in the middle of a conference called to discuss how to turn back the shadow.  It is due to the relevation at such a major event that caused the collapse.

 

Hence he was the betrayer of hope.

[Graendals favourite]

No, the Collapse started immediately after the boring of the Bore, only it took a hundred years until the War of Power broke out. Some time during this time Ishamael revealed to the world what had happened. However, in this time, no doubt many, like Ishamael himself, Graendal, Lanfear, had turned (do not know of the others, only Sammael and Be'lal fought as generals with Lews Therin).

[bronnt]

Ishamael turned in the middle of a conference called to discuss how to turn back the shadow.  It is due to the relevation at such a major event that caused the collapse.

 

Hence he was the betrayer of hope.

 

Where's the reference for this?  I don't remember reading anything about how Ishamael publicly declared for the DO in the Hall of Servants, so what did I miss?  If you could me which book I need to refer to, or if there's a link to a quote by RJ, I'd appreciate it.

[Vexorian]

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ishamael