Fates worse than Death for Bad Girls (spoilers)

[lillcheese]

A friend pointed it out to me years ago.  If you read through that storyline reversing the genders it gets pretty stomach turning.

[Sharaman]

There is a difference in Mat-Tylin.

Mat was reluctant, he was blackmailed and it was non-consensual.

But ultimately he went along because he was even more reluctant to use physical force than to get into bed with a woman he did rather fancy.

He was physically capable of taking the knife away from Tylin, restraining her and running away (as he did eventually).

I'd call the Mat-Tylin initial encounter (and the follow-ups when she apparently got kinkier than he liked) closer to the classic trope of sexual harassment than to rape.

 

The gender-reversal exercise in this case, gets stomach-turning, only if you make an automatic assumption of physical superiority (Mat being a stronger/ better fighter than Tylin). You assume that if Mat had been holding the knife to Tylin's throat, she would not have been capable of resistance. If you fully reverse roles and assume that the person being threatened with the knife was say, Sulin or an AS holding saidar, it's "just" harassment because she would be capable of defending herself as Mat was.

 

 

 

 

 

[Auld Manriva]

Mat wasn't raped, at worst he was taken advantage of. As has been stated he could have stopped the relationship at any time. As uncomfortable to Mat as it was, (having the tables turned on him) he was never physically assaulted. Never dominated either really, neither psychologically nor physically.

 

His "moral code" was certainly attacked. What with his social mores not allowing for the kinds of actions Tylin used on him, but HE never thought himself in any danger. Oh, he played it up as such, being outraged etc., but later (on hearing of her death), his true feelings about it came to be known.

 

Tylin simply used Mat's honorable nature and his loyalty (to his friends etc.) against him. And she showed him, in maybe the only manner that would sink in, HOW HE treated his "playthings" and how he appeared to the women who HE "played with" felt; to some degree.

 

Have we seen him "trash around" in anywhere close to the same manner as before? No we haven't. Mat was "schooled", not raped. At least in my estimation.

[Ataxia]

Uhm, Im pretty sure she put a knife to his throat and was going to use it if he tried to stop her.

[Auld Manriva]

There is a difference in Mat-Tylin.

Mat was reluctant, he was blackmailed and it was non-consensual.

But ultimately he went along because he was even more reluctant to use physical force than to get into bed with a woman he did rather fancy.

He was physically capable of taking the knife away from Tylin, restraining her and running away (as he did eventually).

I'd call the Mat-Tylin initial encounter (and the follow-ups when she apparently got kinkier than he liked) closer to the classic trope of sexual harassment than to rape.

 

The gender-reversal exercise in this case, gets stomach-turning, only if you make an automatic assumption of physical superiority (Mat being a stronger/ better fighter than Tylin). You assume that if Mat had been holding the knife to Tylin's throat, she would not have been capable of resistance. If you fully reverse roles and assume that the person being threatened with the knife was say, Sulin or an AS holding saidar, it's "just" harassment because she would be capable of defending herself as Mat was.

 

 

That says it concisely, accurately and needs no repetition in different words from me.

[Dakota]

Regardless of genders.  If person A held a knife to person B's neck, threatened to kill person B if they didn't sleep with person A, cut off all of person B's clothes and had their way with them, and then subsequentially tried to starve them out if they didn't come back, do you think there's a court of law in this country that -wouldn't- convict person A of rape?  The immenent threat of violence, whether Mat could have taken the knife away or not, is all that's needed to clinch it.

[lillcheese]

For those who think that Mat could have gotten out if he really wanted to:

 

You are forgetting Tylin is a Queen and has guards/an army.  Even if Mat could have gotten away from the knife at his throat, he had no way of knowing whether Tylin would decide to execute or imprison him for assaulting her.  He wouldn't get the benefit of a self-defense argument.

[Sharaman]

Yes, tis sexual harassment and blackmail. Tylin's the boss; she can make bad things happen to him.

Not rape.

 

 

[Dakota]

Yes, tis sexual harassment and blackmail. Tylin's the boss; she can make bad things happen to him.

Not rape.

 

Depending on what state you live in, intercourse by way of sexual harassment and/or blackmail by one's superior is by definition rape.

[Sharaman]

Where I live, sexual harassment + blackmail versus rape are different charges, with different punishments.

The definition isn't the same.

 

[Thor]

Sucks to live in your country then.

[Sharaman]

We also keep slaves :)

[Auld Manriva]

We seem to be confusing a Fantasy Land with what passes for Reality once again.

 

One cannot let their own perceptions/beliefs/mores color things that happen in fiction.

[lillcheese]

Well yes, WoT is fantasyland. But in order for language and communication to work, words must have meanings.  Those meanings cannot be arbitrary or the whole system breaks down.

 

rape = non-consensual sex.  non-consent includes, but is not limited to, circumstances when one person holds a knife to your throat unless you provide intercourse.

 

Now, do I think Tylin raping Mat was as bad as Super Fade raping Moggy/Messy, maybe not.  On the other hand, it lasted for a long time and she appeared to enjoy humiliating him in public with the fact of the rape.  It was all a very entertaining joke for the servants - summoning him by stabbing the bedpost/table with a knife. 

 

The only mitigation I see is that we know Mat could pick up enough money by dicing to buy new clothes and get out of the palace.  On the other hand, Tylin didn't know this was an option.

[Durinax]

Well yes, WoT is fantasyland. But in order for language and communication to work, words must have meanings.  Those meanings cannot be arbitrary or the whole system breaks down.

 

rape = non-consensual sex.  non-consent includes, but is not limited to, circumstances when one person holds a knife to your throat unless you provide intercourse.

 

Now, do I think Tylin raping Mat was as bad as Super Fade raping Moggy/Messy, maybe not.  On the other hand, it lasted for a long time and she appeared to enjoy humiliating him in public with the fact of the rape.  It was all a very entertaining joke for the servants - summoning him by stabbing the bedpost/table with a knife. 

 

The only mitigation I see is that we know Mat could pick up enough money by dicing to buy new clothes and get out of the palace.  On the other hand, Tylin didn't know this was an option.

but by then we know enough of mat to know he is duty bound, and would not abandon the women and if he was to remain in the city Tylin would have had the city searched and things would not have ended up so nicely for him

[Casabamelon]

Rape is about power. It's using your power to force someone to do something they don't want to do. Sex is a good barometer for us, becuase it either happens or it doesn't, and we value being able to choose our partners (for a multitude of reasons).

 

Tylin had power over Mat, and she used it to get something from him that he did not want to give. You should really go back and read the sections again. Mat's thoughts on the subject are VERY similar to testimony given by women who are raped. There's a lot of rationalization that goes on, because you DON'T want to believe you were violated. I invite you to read the emotional accounts of a small number of rape victims, then go back and read the Mat/Tylin section, and tell me what you think happened.

 

P.S. While I have never been raped, a friend of mine WAS raped by a woman when he was a young boy, and HE calls it rape, so it IS rape, as far as I'm concerned.

[Auld Manriva]

Rape is about power. It's using your power to force someone to do something they don't want to do. Sex is a good barometer for us, becuase it either happens or it doesn't, and we value being able to choose our partners (for a multitude of reasons).

 

Tylin had power over Mat, and she used it to get something from him that he did not want to give. You should really go back and read the sections again. Mat's thoughts on the subject are VERY similar to testimony given by women who are raped. There's a lot of rationalization that goes on, because you DON'T want to believe you were violated. I invite you to read the emotional accounts of a small number of rape victims, then go back and read the Mat/Tylin section, and tell me what you think happened.

 

P.S. While I have never been raped, a friend of mine WAS raped by a woman when he was a young boy, and HE calls it rape, so it IS rape, as far as I'm concerned.

Well yes, WoT is fantasyland. But in order for language and communication to work, words must have meanings.  Those meanings cannot be arbitrary or the whole system breaks down.

 

rape = non-consensual sex.  non-consent includes, but is not limited to, circumstances when one person holds a knife to your throat unless you provide intercourse.

 

Now, do I think Tylin raping Mat was as bad as Super Fade raping Moggy/Messy, maybe not.  On the other hand, it lasted for a long time and she appeared to enjoy humiliating him in public with the fact of the rape.  It was all a very entertaining joke for the servants - summoning him by stabbing the bedpost/table with a knife.  

 

The only mitigation I see is that we know Mat could pick up enough money by dicing to buy new clothes and get out of the palace.  On the other hand, Tylin didn't know this was an option.

 

In YOUR world (referring to the bolded sentences above), not in the world in this TALE.

 

NO one, absolutely no one, (characters) considered Tylin's actions to be rape. As lillcheese said, the servants thought it a great chuckle. The Aes Sedai, even those ostensibly under Mat's protection did not find it out of line. Elayne thought it a bit "un-queenly" (my term) but still hid a giggle behind a hand.

 

The severe humiliation was wearing pink ribbons (Oh No!!) which in Randland was merely "foppish" not effeminate.

 

It's not OUR world. Our mores, standards of behaviour and consequences for actions DO NOT apply. Rape as a definition? When did Jordan ever propose that Mat was raped? He didn't. Therefore the definition is not applicable.

[benny the ball]

When did this turn into the "it was rape/wasn't thread?" can we get back on topic or start a new thread for this if your than addamnt about carrying this on?

 

course you could tell me to bugger off. i leave it in your hands to decide how it go's from here but lets keep this a happy go lucky place with few insults for all the family to enjoy yeah?

[Telamon7]

This has got to be one of the most entertaining threads to read. I feel almost guilty for thinking and saying that, since the discussion turned into one about rape, but it still seems rather amusing to me. I'm not being callous, as in the real world I do not think rape entertaining or amusing, but here in this thread about fantasyland with the way this has progressed, I couldn't help but chuckle. Really, I do not mean to offend anyone or stir up any righteous indignation, and I apologize beforehand if I have. Does anyone feel the same at all?

[FarShainMael]

I don't even know if it's physiologically possible for a woman to rape a man! Wouldn't the stress of such a situation render him temporarily impotent?

 

That said, I had to have a quiet chuckle about the way that Mat, the playboy of the three ta'veren, got his comeuppance.. followed by a lot of sympathy at his reaction to Tylin's brutal murder.

 

[Durinax]

I don't even know if it's physiologically possible for a woman to rape a man! Wouldn't the stress of such a situation render him temporarily impotent?

 

That said, I had to have a quiet chuckle about the way that Mat, the playboy of the three ta'veren, got his comeuppance.. followed by a lot of sympathy at his reaction to Tylin's brutal murder.

 

remember even the girls thought that he found girls whom wanted that kind of attention, he got attnetion he did not want, so its vindication and then some. But using Thoms words he got "an education every man has a right too once, if he lives through it"

[FarShainMael]

Perhaps I should clarify - my sympathy was for Mat, his reaction to Tylin's death! For Tylin, I had symapthetic horror.

 

[divinorum]

While I understand Robert Jordan's reasons for wanting to keep this story PG-13 and following the traditional christian marriage rites, one of my greatest gripes in this story are the abundance of naked spankings but the lack of rapes in the story line. Cadsuane being female, should obviously know the shortest way to break any woman, especially an arrogant one such as Semirhage, would be a sexual assault... :-(

[lillcheese]

NO one, absolutely no one, (characters) considered Tylin's actions to be rape. As lillcheese said, the servants thought it a great chuckle. The Aes Sedai, even those ostensibly under Mat's protection did not find it out of line. Elayne thought it a bit "un-queenly" (my term) but still hid a giggle behind a hand.

 

The severe humiliation was wearing pink ribbons (Oh No!!) which in Randland was merely "foppish" not effeminate.

 

It's not OUR world. Our mores, standards of behaviour and consequences for actions DO NOT apply. Rape as a definition? When did Jordan ever propose that Mat was raped? He didn't. Therefore the definition is not applicable.

 

IIRC, RJ said that the modern age was the age before the AoL, so this is our world.

 

Even if that is not the case, it doesn't matter if the characters might not have called it rape.  For a great long time, a woman in the US absolutely could not be raped by her husband.  By definition.  Do your really think that altered the emotional and psychological impact on the women raped by their husbands for the better?  

 

I'm sure Tylin did not break any Altaran law with what she did to Mat.  That doesn't change what happened.  Mat knew that the servants were aware of what was happening and found it amusing since almost the beginning.  The pink ribbons were a public display of the control she held over him. 

 

As to someone's point about Thom's comment, I don't recall how much he knew about the situation.  I'm just starting CoS.  I remember Mat being very embarrassed and unwilling to talk about it.  He only told Elayne as a defense of her accusations for his being improperly lascivious toward Tylin.

 

I don't even know if it's physiologically possible for a woman to rape a man! Wouldn't the stress of such a situation render him temporarily impotent?

 

It is entirely possible.  An erection is a response to physical stimulii.  Emotions are superfluous compared to that.  Even women who are raped orgasm sometimes as a physical response.  It used to be used as evidence against the victim on the theory that it can't be rape if you enjoyed it.  

 

While I understand Robert Jordan's reasons for wanting to keep this story PG-13 and following the traditional christian marriage rites, one of my greatest gripes in this story are the abundance of naked spankings but the lack of rapes in the story line. Cadsuane being female, should obviously know the shortest way to break any woman, especially an arrogant one such as Semirhage, would be a sexual assault... :-(

 

I think that would count as torture, which Rand forbid them to use.  

 

And with that, I will bow out if the people think the threadjack has gone too far.

[Durinax]

the Thom quote I used has nothing to do with mat, he said it to rand in response to him being chased by some cairheinin 'ladies'. I just thought it was appropriate in an inappropriate way