Fates worse than Death for Bad Girls (spoilers)

[Lord D]

Has anyone noticed how many times the evil or nasty women in WoT suffer fates worse than death?  The bad guys, such as Rahvin, Aginor etc, die in battle quickly, but evil women really suffer.  Here are the fates worse than death of evil or nasty women.

 

Liandrin of the Black Ajah - after she tried to overpower an injured Moghedion, she was tightly shielded by Moggy, Compelled to not suicide and given to a fat cook as a scullery maid for punishment.  Later, she's captured by the Seanchan and made da'covale to Suroth, who definitely wasn't treating her well.

 

Galina of the BA - captured by the Shaido after Dumai's Wells.  Sammael later brings an Oath Rod, which allows Therava to completely dominate Galina.  After a failed escape attempt in Malden, the Shaido are heading back to the Aiel Waste with Galina nothing more than Therava's pet.

 

Moghedion - made into Nynaeve, then Egwene's damane, which is not a nice fate.  When released by Aran'gar, she is kept by Shaidar Haran for a long time, during which he rapes her, among other things (RJ confirmed this).  Now basically a slave to Moridin.

 

Sevanna, chief of the Shaido - captured by the Seanchan at the Battle of Malden, and made da'covale.

 

Elaida - captured by the Seanchan in the attack on the WT, and made damane.

 

Suroth - for attempting to kill Tuon, she is gang-raped by the DeathWatch Guard, and kept by them as a pet until her hair has grown long enough to be sold on the block.

 

Semirhage - completely humiliated by Cadsuane - to her, this would be a fate worse than death.  Later, BF'd by Rand.

 

Also, Lanfear probably suffered some unpleasantness when captured by the Finns, and is now also Moridin's slave.  I wonder if this indicates that Mesaana, Aran'gar etc will also suffer fates worse than death.  I read a lot of fantasy/horror books outside WoT, and WoT has to be the only series where so many evil female characters suffer such terrible fates.

[Diederichos]

Suroth is never raped by the DG. Why would Tuon give among the most honoured of her soldiers someone that's basically lower than an animl, it'd be extremely insulting. Also, I thought Shaidar was more into physical pain than sex, but eh, what do I know. If it is true, it's way too SoT for my liking.

[Lord D]

Suroth is never raped by the DG. Why would Tuon give among the most honoured of her soldiers someone that's basically lower than an animl, it'd be extremely insulting. Also, I thought Shaidar was more into physical pain than sex, but eh, what do I know. If it is true, it's way too SoT for my liking.

 

On Suroth, the KoD epilogue says she screamed as her clothes were cut away, and she was definitely given to the Deathwatch Guard for their pleasure until her hair had grown long enough.  On Moggy, the relevant reference is at the WoT FAQ

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.08_shaidar-haran-mog.html

[Arath Faringal]

Also, I thought Shaidar was more into physical pain than sex, but eh, what do I know. If it is true, it's way too SoT for my liking.

 

Tell that to Mesanna.  It's pretty clear what he did to her.

[Diederichos]

Her clothes were torn away because they were not appropriate for a da'covale and to seal the fact to the other Blood/herself that her old life is basically over. What you're not considering is Seanchan honour which we've seen throughout the series to cause them to do as many ridiculous things as jie'toh does for Aiel. Suroth is a traitor to the Throne, a rebel, that is as bad as her being a channeler. The two are basically beneath humanity, whereas other da'covale are part of a hierarchy but at least they're still considered people.

 

To ask the DG to even touch her in that way is to ask them to touch an animal that way, or to touch a damane. It is extremely insulting to them and likely Tuon would consider it an insult to do that to the people who just gave her back her throne. Expecting a Seanchan to debase themselves so is like expecting Aiel(regular, not Shaido) to do it, just doesn't work.

[dholm]

Semirhage was only kept alive to be broken because Rand refused to kill her. When her time came, it was pretty damn quick -- in fact, identical to Rahvin's.

 

You also avoid the other evil women who have been killed during the series, the most obvious answer being Graendal. There are others, though -- all of the Black Ajah who have been caught at the Purge, for instance. Other Black Ajah -- Ispan, Amico, Asne, Joiya, Jarna, Careane. Perhaps others, I can't recall.

 

The men who were killed were killed for obvious reasons. The women who were not weren't for obvious reasons.

 

As for the rape... the rape was for punishment, to show them that the Great Lord had the ultimate power over them, and to steer them back in line.

[Lulzworthy]

Mmm I do believe that Suroth was given to DG as their "property" not "for pleasure". I might be wrong as I haven't read it in a while but I have to agree with Suroth being lower than the human standard and would be offensive to offer her for sex to the DG.

[Crael123]

i never was under the impression suroth got raped. ino mesaana did though.

[SI]

You also avoid the other evil women who have been killed during the series, the most obvious answer being Graendal. There are others, though -- all of the Black Ajah who have been caught at the Purge, for instance. Other Black Ajah -- Ispan, Amico, Asne, Joiya, Jarna, Careane. Perhaps others, I can't recall.

It was said that ispans death was not pleasent, with a stake through her.

[thewalrus777]

You also avoid the other evil women who have been killed during the series, the most obvious answer being Graendal. There are others, though -- all of the Black Ajah who have been caught at the Purge, for instance. Other Black Ajah -- Ispan, Amico, Asne, Joiya, Jarna, Careane. Perhaps others, I can't recall.

It was said that ispans death was not pleasent, with a stake through her.

 

Didn't Joiya have her tounge nailed to the wall of her cell. Ouch.

[Lord D]

On Suroth, from KoD epilogue, pg 754, Tuon speaking

 

Therefore, Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is no more.  This da'covale will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is sent to the block for sale.

 

Somehow, I doubt that all of the Guard would not want to use Suroth.  In fact, I imagine that a number of them would greatly enjoy making someone who was so high-and-mighty submit to them sexually.  There's nothing in the Seanchan honour code that would seem to prevent this.

 

Also, I'm not saying that there aren't evil women who get quick deaths, just that there are a lot of evil women who suffer fates worse than death.

[Auld Manriva]

On Suroth, from KoD epilogue, pg 754, Tuon speaking

 

Therefore, Suroth Sabelle Meldarath is no more.  This da'covale will serve the Deathwatch Guard as they wish until her hair has grown enough for her to be decent when she is sent to the block for sale.

 

Somehow, I doubt that all of the Guard would not want to use Suroth.  In fact, I imagine that a number of them would greatly enjoy making someone who was so high-and-mighty submit to them sexually.  There's nothing in the Seanchan honour code that would seem to prevent this.

 

Also, I'm not saying that there aren't evil women who get quick deaths, just that there are a lot of evil women who suffer fates worse than death.

 

Ummm... "Serving the DG as they wish" is quite a stretch from "she is gang-raped by the DeathWatch Guard, and kept by them as a pet"

 

Not that I have anything but the highest contempt for Seanchan characters, but DG are presented as being Boy Scouts (albeit deadly ones) or Secret Service on steroids. It's possible she'd be treated in the way you propose but it's also possible she'd be treated like a hard headed pack animal too, beaten, kicked, living among livestock etc.... her status is left entirely to the reader.

 

[Dakota]

Has any evidence been presented to us in the books as to how the Senchean view da'covale when it comes to sex?  We know they consider sex with a damane to be about as abhorrent as bestiality or pedophelia.  But I don't remember any evidence as to if sex with a da'covale to be as perverted, or if being used for such purposes is part of the nature of being da'covale.  Given those filmy transparent robes that they're often in, it would seem that their thoughts would be towards the latter.

 

In any case, I also read that passage as to imply that Suroth ended up being their sex-slave until she went to the block, because aside from the obvious, it would highlight just how far she had fallen.

[garion]

Da'cocale wear the thin transparent robes to accent their figure more.  They are thought more as beautiful statutes that can move and flow.

[thewalrus777]

Has any evidence been presented to us in the books as to how the Senchean view da'covale when it comes to sex?  We know they consider sex with a damane to be about as abhorrent as bestiality or pedophelia.  But I don't remember any evidence as to if sex with a da'covale to be as perverted, or if being used for such purposes is part of the nature of being da'covale.  Given those filmy transparent robes that they're often in, it would seem that their thoughts would be towards the latter.

 

In any case, I also read that passage as to imply that Suroth ended up being their sex-slave until she went to the block, because aside from the obvious, it would highlight just how far she had fallen.

 

I don't think it's very far fetched that the Seanchan would have consenual relationships with their da'covale. They are still viewed as humans even though they're property. Damane on the other hand is different. They are seen as animals. So when someone lies down with a damane, it's seen as basically sleeping with a beast. Yeah, so the Seanchan probably do take their da'covale to bed, they are the persons property after all.

[Paerish Swar]

I can't find the quote right now, but I remember a comment by Egeanin in regards to her relationship with Domon.  She had bought him and then made him her Voice, I think.  She seems to make a comment that members of the low blood occasionally have sexual relationships with their Voices or da'covale, but that they keep it on the down low because it's not necessarily the most proper of situations.  She seemed to be angry at Domon because he wasn't treating their relationship and specific social situation as circumspectly as he should have.

[Diederichos]

I think what Egeanin referred to was 'Asa', basically a concubine or something. The da'covale who are kept for their physical properties are chosen expressly for that, this is not something I'd say is common to the vast majority of da'covale who do actual work. And the Seanchan consider it beastiality to sleep with damane because they are considered less than human, something which deals immense shame to the person who does it. The same concept applies to sleeping with someone who essentially betrayed the Crystal Throne(in some ways, went against the Creator's will if you would as the Seanchan would interpret it).

 

Let's come at it another way. What would the purpose be of DG been given Suroth, sex? One, Karede shows that they can be married and have normal families. Second, it's safe to assume that their needs would be seen to(professional brothels as was done in history). Thirdly, it's not punishment since the Seekers would take care of torturing info out of Suroth and essentially breaking her. So, why should a DG lower his own eyes by sleeping with a traitor to the throne. By that same respect, why would Tuon insult them by ordering them to do that?

[thewalrus777]

I think what Egeanin referred to was 'Asa', basically a concubine or something. The da'covale who are kept for their physical properties are chosen expressly for that, this is not something I'd say is common to the vast majority of da'covale who do actual work. And the Seanchan consider it beastiality to sleep with damane because they are considered less than human, something which deals immense shame to the person who does it. The same concept applies to sleeping with someone who essentially betrayed the Crystal Throne(in some ways, went against the Creator's will if you would as the Seanchan would interpret it).

 

Let's come at it another way. What would the purpose be of DG been given Suroth, sex? One, Karede shows that they can be married and have normal families. Second, it's safe to assume that their needs would be seen to(professional brothels as was done in history). Thirdly, it's not punishment since the Seekers would take care of torturing info out of Suroth and essentially breaking her. So, why should a DG lower his own eyes by sleeping with a traitor to the throne. By that same respect, why would Tuon insult them by ordering them to do that?

 

Also true. The DG are the boy scouts of the Seanchan army. I doubt they would do anything of a sexual nature with a traitor. They are honor bound.

[Crael123]

since when are the boy scouts secret service agents? i wish i became one. dang.

 

i always thought of DG as secret service agents

 

[Auld Manriva]

My meaning for "Boy Scouts/Secret Service" and why I draw that particular parallel. 

 

"On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

Albeit, my only idea of what a DG is (that I can recall) from the description of Karede and his group.

[Dakota]

"On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

Doing their duty to their country and obeying their own internally-made laws, I can see that.  Being physically strong and mentally awake, I can see that too.

 

Helping other people at all times and being morally straight, that I can't see as attributes the Deathwatch Guards possessing.  If the Empress tells them to save people from a burning building, they'll do it without question.  If the Empress tells them to lock people inside a building and set it on fire, again I see the DW guards as the type who would do it without question.

 

Labelling someone as a Boy Scount usually implies that that's the sort of person who would always do the right thing no matter what the cost is.  I didn't get the impression that even the Senchean saw them as such.  Galad I would call a boy scout.  The Deathwatch, not so much.

[thewalrus777]

"On my honor, I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

 

Doing their duty to their country and obeying their own internally-made laws, I can see that.  Being physically strong and mentally awake, I can see that too.

 

Helping other people at all times and being morally straight, that I can't see as attributes the Deathwatch Guards possessing.  If the Empress tells them to save people from a burning building, they'll do it without question.  If the Empress tells them to lock people inside a building and set it on fire, again I see the DW guards as the type who would do it without question.

 

Labelling someone as a Boy Scount usually implies that that's the sort of person who would always do the right thing no matter what the cost is.  I didn't get the impression that even the Senchean saw them as such.  Galad I would call a boy scout.  The Deathwatch, not so much.

 

very good point.

[lbeefus]

I don't see any evidence Suroth was raped*, but I do think the poster's main point is interesting. Jordan was very interested in the gender differences: the fundamental force (saidar/saidin) of his universe is divided by gender. As such, perhaps its no surprise that the means by which characters gain power and are brought low are very stratified. The characters who seek power through manipulation are usually brought low through humiliation/degradation. The characters who seek power through force are usually brought low through force. She's not a major character, but a counter example might be Mat's shadowfriend/maiden (I forget her name). She's not particularly manipulative, uses force to try and kill him, and is killed directly, without humiliation. The foppish noble who Rand sends to test on Graedal is humiliated, rather than killed.  These are weak examples, and Suroth is a good counter-example to my point: I would say her behavior is close to the behavior of many of the male villains, and yet she is brought low by humiliation.  Overall, though, I think its interesting to look not just at how these characters meet their "final" fate, but how they act on their way up as well.

 

*As far as Suroth, I don't feel there was any real indication that she was going to be forced to serve in that way.  Whether or not she did seems to be pure conjecture that isn't particularly supported by the text.

 

[Auld Manriva]

Whatever.. I say tomato you say ta-mah-to... Doing whatever the Empress says is as morally straight as it gets in that culture.

 

I underlined the one sentence because those were the attributes I was referring to. The others were were not edited out simply to keep the whole thing in context.

 

Besides... it's all a figure of speech in any case. Jesus, Joseph and Mary.. I did NOT mean to imply they bore merit badges or genuflected to Lord Baden Powell for all love  ::)

[Jemlin]

Talk about getting off topic.

 

Anyways, BACK to the topic, I noticed this too.  Not all of the women are given "fates worse than death", but more than men.  It seems that in the WOT series the women tend to have some serious suffering put their way, where-as, then men just get killed.  Women are either tortured, humiliated, or enslaved in some fashion.

 

I wonder if this more reflects to the WoT universe, or more to R.J's mentality lol