A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Taura-Tierno]

Or defeating the OR could mean to defeat it's effect, as in, twisting the truth of the oath to not speak untrue words. It depends on how literal he was. I'd say either interpretation is equally correct, since we really don't know, yet.

[Gordar]

If we're looking for a weakness in the Oath Rod, rather than a weakness in the Oaths, then one glaring weakness stands out:  No one but the person swearing on the rod can discern whether the rod had any effect as far as we know.  In every case where we've seen it used, the person swearing felt a tightening or pressing down on the skin, but there's no mention of anyone else perceiving anything at all.  This weakness suggests the possibility of defeating the Oath Rod by holding it and swearing, but evading the effects.  I suggested earlier the possibility that, much like the ring-shaped dream ter'angreal, skin contact might be required for the Oath Rod to work (otherwise, why do people hold it?).  An inverted weave of air in the hand that allowed one to hold the Oath Rod without touching it might allow one to swear to no effect without anyone being the wiser.

 

Is this a lame solution?  Yes!  But no more so than another widely popular solution, and it has the advantage that Mesaana can know in advance if it will work or not, something that might not be a sure thing with simply stating "I am not a Darkfriend."  If I were in her position, I would at least want to practice before depending on word trickery to be sure.  Mesaana would know if the air trick worked, because in the Age of Legends they would have been knowledgeable enough both to detect it and guard against it as part of their usual procedure for binding criminals.

 

Only possible if a weave can be inverted when it's being woven or if the weave of air has been made long before she came into contact with other Aes Sedai. Then the Aes Sedai handing her the oath rod would have to place it exactly in/on the woven air. Besides, i don't even know if the last one is possible.

[ed2funy]

Or defeating the OR could mean to defeat it's effect, as in, twisting the truth of the oath to not speak untrue words. It depends on how literal he was. I'd say either interpretation is equally correct, since we really don't know, yet.

 

For me...I am not buying that anyone can defeat the Rod by twisting their own words. Or believing something else.

[Dreamwalker]

Or defeating the OR could mean to defeat it's effect, as in, twisting the truth of the oath to not speak untrue words. It depends on how literal he was. I'd say either interpretation is equally correct, since we really don't know, yet.

 

For me...I am not buying that anyone can defeat the Rod by twisting their own words. Or believing something else.

 

But you can beat it by believing something else - in the prologue to WH, the Black sister (Talene) that the BA Hunters uncover and make reswear the oaths declares that Elaida is BA. We, however, know that Elaida is not - she's able to say it despite the oath because she believes it to be true. Which only makes sense. If the oath worked otherwise, you could figure out exactly what was going on in the world by trying to say random crap and see if you are able to say it - if you could, it would be true. Which would be a much worse cop-out IMO. So it doesn't work that way - it works on the fact of whether you believe what you say is a lie or the truth.

[ed2funy]

Sorry, should have explained more.

I am talking about believing you are not taking an Oath or taking a different one.

 

Not after the fact.

[Dreamwalker]

Sorry, should have explained more.

I am talking about believing you are not taking an Oath or taking a different one.

 

Not after the fact.

 

Oh, sorry. Yeah I agree with you about that. :-)

[mb]

Getting around the Rod, I think that would require a 'twisting' of its purpose.  (oaths no longer binding when bound to it)

Not sure if that is possible.

 

Getting around oaths sworn by it, I would consider that as a close second.

 

[BladeDancer]

1 Are you Mesaana?

2 Are you a Forsaken?

3 Do you serve the Dark One?

4 Have you ever been to Shayol Ghul?

5 Were you alive before the Trolloc Wars?

6 Did you live in the Age of Legends?

7 Are you impersonating an Aes Sedai?

8 Are you supporting the Shadow during the Last Battle?

9 Did you ever meet Lanfear?

10 Do you remember a time before Tar Valon was built/before Dragonmount was around/before Callandor was placed in the Stone of Tear/when the Aiel were pacifist?

Shayol Ghul, there could be a chance that even Light-sided sisters been there; and discover after the visit (or know at the time) that the place was/is Shayol Ghul.

Lanfear, even Light-sided sisters could have meet her; and discover after the encounter (or know at the time) that the person was/is Lanfear.

Last Battle, a number of sisters may choose to join the Shadow before then.  Serve the Dark One, a number of sisters might have joined before the question was asked.

 

impersonating, Mesaana may believe that she is not; and other sisters may believe that they are.

remember, Mesaana may believe that she does not; and other sisters may believe that they do.

 

Almost any question could be evaded if the speaker believes in something other than the truth.

 

 

 

 

I think you somewhat clutching at straws here. If Egwene got a Yes answer from any Sister  to any of the questions in my list then a red flag would go up and Egwene would ask follow up questions. If a Sister admitted to having been to Shayol Ghul then this would certainly be suspicious and the questioner would certainly continue to ask for further details. Only by painting Egwene as a moron who fails to ask the right questions in response to suspicious answers could this scenario work. That would be a weak plotline imo.

[BladeDancer]

It was a big deal to force every AS to reswear the oaths. If she were to do it again, she would have to admit there is a FORSAKEN in the White Tower. IMHO, this would cause panic and flight from the tower. She had one shot, and she had to take it under very short notice. Her goal was to catch the BA, not sift for a Forsaken. Yes, she could have done both in the same shot, if she had thought of it. Again, short notice.

 

 

The thing is that the Aes Sedai have now been purged of Black Ajah. All Sisters there now Walk in the Light (except for Mesaana if she is still there masquerading as a Sister) none could object if Egwene asked them to reswear again. If she says that she suspects strongly that a Forsaken is pretending to be one of them - then everyone will agree to do a reswearing if needed. It is not simply a one-shot. Egwene is a powerful Amyrlin who successfully rooted out the Black Ajah. No single Aes Sedai is going to refuse to do another test because it is too inconvenient and they are washing their hair - catching one of the Forsaken and purging their ranks is an absolute priority especially with the Last Battle coming. The Aes Sedai may be frightened of the Forsaken but they would not run away, the entire process of becoming Aes Sedai weeds out those who cannot cope with the pressure. They also now know the Black Ajah exist, and as pointed out by me previously, as Aes Sedai they have to believe the Forsaken are real rather than myth, and are now free. If the Aes Sedai are told that Mesaana is hiding in the Tower then the only logical response is to reswear everyone with asking the proper questions and thus revealing Mesaana and/or absolving everyone else of suspicion. Every Aes Sedai would much prefer to encounter a Forsaken while they are in the company of dozens of fellow (proven to be non-Black) Sisters for backup then in virtually any other situation.

 

There is simply nothing to stop Egwene from doing impromtu reswearing sessions for Sisters selected at Random. Keeping the Aes Sedai free from infiltration would encourage confidence and trust between the various Aes Sedai rather than the opposite imo.

 

 

 

 

[thewalrus777]

It was a big deal to force every AS to reswear the oaths. If she were to do it again, she would have to admit there is a FORSAKEN in the White Tower. IMHO, this would cause panic and flight from the tower. She had one shot, and she had to take it under very short notice. Her goal was to catch the BA, not sift for a Forsaken. Yes, she could have done both in the same shot, if she had thought of it. Again, short notice.

 

 

The thing is that the Aes Sedai have now been purged of Black Ajah. All Sisters there now Walk in the Light (except for Mesaana if she is still there masquerading as a Sister) none could object if Egwene asked them to reswear again. If she says that she suspects strongly that a Forsaken is pretending to be one of them - then everyone will agree to do a reswearing if needed. It is not simply a one-shot. Egwene is a powerful Amyrlin who successfully rooted out the Black Ajah. No single Aes Sedai is going to refuse to do another test because it is too inconvenient and they are washing their hair - catching one of the Forsaken and purging their ranks is an absolute priority especially with the Last Battle coming. The Aes Sedai may be frightened of the Forsaken but they would not run away, the entire process of becoming Aes Sedai weeds out those who cannot cope with the pressure. They also now know the Black Ajah exist, and as pointed out by me previously, as Aes Sedai they have to believe the Forsaken are real rather than myth, and are now free. If the Aes Sedai are told that Mesaana is hiding in the Tower then the only logical response is to reswear everyone with asking the proper questions and thus revealing Mesaana and/or absolving everyone else of suspicion. Every Aes Sedai would much prefer to encounter a Forsaken while they are in the company of dozens of fellow (proven to be non-Black) Sisters for backup then in virtually any other situation.

 

There is simply nothing to stop Egwene from doing impromtu reswearing sessions for Sisters selected at Random. Keeping the Aes Sedai free from infiltration would encourage confidence and trust between the various Aes Sedai rather than the opposite imo.

 

 

 

 

 

This is true considering she has been able to bend every other sister to her will. This really wouldn't be any different. Especially if the Tower learns of a Forsaken masquerading as a sister.

[Taura-Tierno]

It was a big deal to force every AS to reswear the oaths. If she were to do it again, she would have to admit there is a FORSAKEN in the White Tower. IMHO, this would cause panic and flight from the tower. She had one shot, and she had to take it under very short notice. Her goal was to catch the BA, not sift for a Forsaken. Yes, she could have done both in the same shot, if she had thought of it. Again, short notice.

 

 

The thing is that the Aes Sedai have now been purged of Black Ajah. All Sisters there now Walk in the Light (except for Mesaana if she is still there masquerading as a Sister) none could object if Egwene asked them to reswear again. If she says that she suspects strongly that a Forsaken is pretending to be one of them - then everyone will agree to do a reswearing if needed. It is not simply a one-shot. Egwene is a powerful Amyrlin who successfully rooted out the Black Ajah. No single Aes Sedai is going to refuse to do another test because it is too inconvenient and they are washing their hair - catching one of the Forsaken and purging their ranks is an absolute priority especially with the Last Battle coming. The Aes Sedai may be frightened of the Forsaken but they would not run away, the entire process of becoming Aes Sedai weeds out those who cannot cope with the pressure. They also now know the Black Ajah exist, and as pointed out by me previously, as Aes Sedai they have to believe the Forsaken are real rather than myth, and are now free. If the Aes Sedai are told that Mesaana is hiding in the Tower then the only logical response is to reswear everyone with asking the proper questions and thus revealing Mesaana and/or absolving everyone else of suspicion. Every Aes Sedai would much prefer to encounter a Forsaken while they are in the company of dozens of fellow (proven to be non-Black) Sisters for backup then in virtually any other situation.

 

There is simply nothing to stop Egwene from doing impromtu reswearing sessions for Sisters selected at Random. Keeping the Aes Sedai free from infiltration would encourage confidence and trust between the various Aes Sedai rather than the opposite imo.

 

 

Unswearing the oaths is quite painful, isn't it? I doubt people would be happy to do that again. Also, seeing as she didn't catch Mesaana on the first round, how many sisters would argue that a second attempt would yield any results? Depending on how the Aes Sedai spoke during the purge, many could argue that Mesaana probably knows a way around the oaths or the Oath Rod itself. Not to mention the fact that she might just kill a sister who has already resworn the oaths again, and take that identity.

 

It could easily turn into a great mess. It would also alert Mesaana to Egwene's intents. It's probably not the best way to find her. I bet Egwene will come up with something better.

[Alba]

Okay, so let's review what the possible methods are. We know that the Oath Rod works by:

 

1) Being held by the oathtaker

2) Having Spirit channeled into the proper end

3) Taking the oath

 

In order to pass as non-Black, Mesaana must do one more thing:

 

4) Be seen to claim she is not a Darkfriend.

 

However, ways to beat (4) must be taken as a somewhat separate category -- this is a way to beat the Oath, but not the Rod. BS implies that the Rod itself can be beaten.

 

In order to beat the Rod, one must either not actually use it, or deactivate its power over you, or block its power over you, or undo its power over you. So the possibilities break down as follows:

 

(A) Not actually using the Rod --

I. Not actually hold the Rod, but make it appear as though you did.

II. Not actually have Spirit channeled into the Rod, but make it appear as though you did.

III. Not actually take the Oaths, but make it appear as though you did.

IV. Not actually say, "I am not a Darkfriend", but make it appear as though you did.

(B) Deactivating or blocking its power over you --

V. Deactivating the Rod's power using the design of the Rod, e.g., flipping the hidden safety switch.

VI. Deactivating or blocking the Rod's power using another weave, e.g., a mind-shield.

VII. Blocking the Rod's power using a ter'angreal, e.g., a personal Guardian like Mat's medallion.

VIII. Blocking the Rod's power using the True Power or some other Shadow-wrought tool.

© Undoing its power over you --

IX. By preparing beforehand so that the Oaths are not binding.

X. By finding a verbal, linguistic, or other trick that makes the Oaths not hold in general.

XI. By finding a verbal, linguistic, or other trick that makes the Oath against lying not hold for the specific statement: "I am not a Darkfriend."

XII. By somehow very quickly unbinding yourself from the Oaths using the Oath Rod, but making it appear as though you did not.

XIII. By somehow very quickly unbinding yourself from the Oaths using a ter'angreal other than the Oath Rod.

XIV. By somehow very quickly unbinding yourself from the Oaths using the True Power or some other Shadow-wrought tool.

 

I think that is a complete list. Someone chime in if I've missed a possibility. I'm pretty sure this covers everything discussed. A glove of Air and a Mirror of Mists of a hand (or whole body!) falls under category I. Category II would require an interesting AoL trick, as the Oath must be taken in public and sisters can see the weave. Recording devices and audible MoMs cover categories III and IV. Categories V, VI, VII, and VIII all involve a trick up Messy's sleeve -- has anyone channeled at Mesaana and had the flows vanish? I can't remember. Tricks that involve swearing a counter-oath on the Oath Rod the night before fall under IX. X and XI are pretty standard Aes Sedai fare. XII would be a neat trick -- maybe a MoM and eavesdrop curtain to hide saying "I forswear all oaths that bind me?" XIII could be pulled off if Mesaana had a *second* Oath Rod secreted on her person; what happened to that second OR Graendal and Sammael had? Finally, XIV, like VIII, requires a trick up her sleeve.

 

So now, barring new categories, all we must do is decide which category is most likely...

[Taura-Tierno]

I still believe that she either

 

1) Said "I'm not Black Ajah" or something similar, that's true. Only works if Egwene used badly prepared questions.

2) Did not swear at all, i.e. sent another Sister to swear, or took over another person's identity after that person had sworn.

 

Seems cheap if it would just be an inverted glove of Air or something like that.

[forzainternl]

Now the Blacks in the Tower were warned about the purge so one may presume Mesaana was as well, thus giving her time to prepare. From there consider--we know she's replaced an Aes Sedai, so what if she didn't kill whomever she replaced, but kept them around hidden somewhere in case of the need to gain information or something, and so when the purge happened Mesaane (forewarned) pulled her out, dusted her off and compelled her in her re-swearing of the Oaths.

 

From the first page of this topic. I agree with this line of thought she just compelled the Aes Sedai she is impersonating to Swear the 3 Oaths again :D. Sorry for being a party pooper! ciao.

[JudyJetson]

What if everyone is thinking about this backwards?  What if evading the oaths has nothing to do with what someone says, but how the Oath Rod works?  What if Mesaana is the one who created it or knows who did and how it works?  It does not appear to have been very carefully guarded.  Mesaana could have gained access to the rod and "programmed" it with her own instructions.

[bronnt]

My two favorite theories:

 

1)  Using a proxy to take the Oaths for her.  If she's posing as Danelle (most likely), Danelle is still alive, so she Compels her to go in and swear the Oaths for her, then return.  After that she goes back to impersonating her.

 

2)  Combining inverted Air and Mask of Mirrors so that you're not actually touching the rod, therefore, the effects don't settle on you.

 

Not a fan of:

 

1) Anything involving mental gymnastics and sketchy wording.

2) Random knowledge that Mesaana is privy to that has before been hinted at.  If BrS can just conjure solutions to problems like that, the series becomes much less thought-provoking.

[mb]

I take each person there was watched by at least one non-black and that each watcher made sure that they held the Rod and that each watcher made sure they did not do any tricks.

Thus each person is bound to the 3 Oaths.

 

Like I posted before, Mesaana believed that she was not a darkfriend; that is why she was able to tell so.  I doubt because of any other reason.

 

[Dreamwalker]

I take each person there was watched by at least one non-black and that each watcher made sure that they held the Rod and that each watcher made sure they did not do any tricks.

Thus each person is bound to the 3 Oaths.

 

Like I posted before, Mesaana believed that she was not a darkfriend; that is why she was able to tell so.  I doubt because of any other reason.

 

 

I agree with you 100%. This is the simplest way for her to escape the purge, and by Occam's razor, I'd say that's what happened. Also from her standpoint the simplest plan is the least likely to have something go wrong - the weird weave/fake hand/compulsion theories all have ways they could very easily have exposed her.

 

Further, I'd like to ask when do you think Mesaana learned about the purge? She couldn't have had more than 24 hours notice, and I'm inclined to think maybe even less than that, so whatever she did she didn't have long to prepare for it.

[mb]

Further, I'd like to ask when do you think Mesaana learned about the purge? She couldn't have had more than 24 hours notice, and I'm inclined to think maybe even less than that, so whatever she did she didn't have long to prepare for it.

Not sure if Mesaana was told.

It would depend whether she was known by any of the escaped Blacks of the rebel camp.

If Mesaana was told, she probably was the only that remained.  All others that were told I take escaped.

 

[Sharaman]

Some Salidar BA escaped and presumably told WT BA since many of those escaped.

Assuming Messi wasn't caught in the Seanchan raid, there were many possible sources of info for her in that she could have known any of the BA sisters concerned or if the BA was using an emergency drop-box code, she may have known that.

[Taura-Tierno]

Isn't it also possible that Aliviarin told her? Used that summoning device and told her, when she herself had been informed of the coming purge?

[Dreamwalker]

Some Salidar BA escaped and presumably told WT BA since many of those escaped.

Assuming Messi wasn't caught in the Seanchan raid, there were many possible sources of info for her in that she could have known any of the BA sisters concerned or if the BA was using an emergency drop-box code, she may have known that.

Isn't it also possible that Aliviarin told her? Used that summoning device and told her, when she herself had been informed of the coming purge?

 

Yes, either of those are quite possible.

 

What I'm saying is that's still (I think) less than 24 hours before Egwene got sworn in at the WT and continued the purge there. What exactly kind of time frame are we looking at? I thought it was - Egwene purges rebels, and the next day Egwene gets sworn in and immediately purges the tower. That's about 24 hours time in between, and Mesaana probably didn't find out immediately when the rebel purge began because there had to be time for word to spread from the rebel camp to the tower and from there to Alviarin (I'd guess it was her that told Mesaana).

 

I'm trying to say, I don't think that the oath-evading can be anything overly complex or would take lots of preparation because Mesaana likely had very short notice.

[Sharaman]

Yes, the timeframe between purges is about 24 hours and Dreamwalker's point is valid.

But none of the suggested methods involve something very time-consuming even if some are complex.

 

[ravenfier]

I think we have hit the nail on the head a few times but side step it at the same time. How shw could have evaided it was in her wording. Some people swore that they wern't darkfriends while others swore that they were not "of the Black Ajah". This is distictive becuse a chanaler can be a dark friend and not of the black, but all black members (except for the case of Verin, she being forced in to it) are darkfriends first. So she could ave sworn that she was not Black Ajah and be telling 100% truth, she is not Black ajah becuse the Black came into being after she was entombed. A better question to have been asked would have been "Do you serve the Dark One?" not "Are you a darkfriend?"

 

having pnuemonia sucks

[bronnt]

I take each person there was watched by at least one non-black and that each watcher made sure that they held the Rod and that each watcher made sure they did not do any tricks.

Thus each person is bound to the 3 Oaths.

 

Like I posted before, Mesaana believed that she was not a darkfriend; that is why she was able to tell so.  I doubt because of any other reason.

 

 

The problem is that if this is the solution, Mesaana is forced to (presumably) forswear all of her previous oaths, and then swear the three oaths once again.  It seems a bit problematic for one of the Forsaken to be bound not to lie, not to make weapons, and not to use the OP as a weapon.  This is counting on her then finding the OR again later (not a sure thing since Egwene has decided to hide several of the power-related items following the Seanchan raid), or using some T'a'R trick to get the Oaths removed-unless she's stumbled upon her own binder as Sammael did.

 

At that point, this solution becomes a lot less simple since she's got to follow and get the Oaths removed, and reswear to the DO in order to retain his blessing.