Why do wolves call Myrdraal the Neverborn???

[Sila Darklover]

I've been wondering about this for years. According to every source I've found, Mydraal ARE born (to Trollocs), so it makes no sense. Perhaps someone here knows?

[Jonn]

I've been wondering about this for years. According to every source I've found, Mydraal ARE born (to Trollocs), so it makes no sense. Perhaps someone here knows?

 

My guess is because they pretty much are the same being no matter how many there are.

They don't really seem to have a soul, just a will of evil and malice and violence.

 

Even trollocs seem to have souls, even if they are degraded and twisted. Gray men used to have souls from what I can tell. Creatures like dragkhar and other variations like zomara appear to lack souls as well.

 

thing is, myrdraal were born as a genetic glitch, a throwback. They exist just to commit murderous cruel violence. "Neverborn" seems to imply that the wolves can sense that they never should have been born at all.

[chuckievi]

for the record you'd be pissed and go on a murderous rampage if your mom was a Trolloc too...

[MsDanya]

i tohught they werent borne but made :? thats why I always thought the Wolfes calls them neverborn. cause they are not born. hmm

[SinisterDeath]

Approximately 60+% of all mydraal die in birth. Humans + Trollocs are the only way they can mate... And even at that, its a 'miracle' they can. Its like mating a Mule and a Horse Together... Let alone a mule + a mule. Most likely most of the mydrraal are stillborn. There is also the distinct possibility the DO has a direct role in it, only selecting the 'strongest' to be 'born'. So to speak. Also Mydrraal also have the distinct feature of being alive in 2 different realities. Quite simply that is how they are able to 'teleport' within the shadows. Its kinda like they are trapped in one of the portal stone worlds.. Or half of them, more specifically, the living half. When you kill a mydrraal, the reason they live so long is its like a 'lag' The living half doesn't die for a long time since its 'living' half is on one side, and the 'other half' is on randlands side.. They are also probably being 'supplied' by the do to keep the 'living' or 'human' half alive, and by killing the 'randland' side, you escentially cut off there supplies.

At least thats my theory.

*It also probably has alot to do with quantom physics.*

[Old Skool]

I think you mean donkey and horses to get mules? Mules are infertile.

[aronsamma]

"Trollocs do not always breed true; instead they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics. The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by the evil of their original makers, and are called Myrddraal."

 

"Myrddraal resemble men much more closely than do their Trolloc parents in size, appearance, and level of intelligence."

 

There are no humans involved here.

[Angel of Death]

Even Aginor or Osan'gar later on, doesn't understand how the myrdraal fully work - has no idea how they do the shadow vanishing act.

[SinisterDeath]

Actually there are humans involved.

A trolloc male and a trolloc female can not bread.

A trolloc male has to bread with a human female.

And... well somehow a male human would have to bread with a trolloc female *that poor poor man* :P

Two trollocs will = in no birth. And that is what I meant it would be like mating a mule and a horse.. It won't work. You would have to do the horse and a donkey.. The difference is, the trollocs aren't completely 'mule' they still can mate, but two of them = full 'mule' or 'dead'.

[Old Skool]

My bad SD, I thought you did a type-o. I dont think that there are any female Trollocs, I think male trollocs rape human women for the half men to pop out. OMG! Imagine the pain!!!!

[chuckievi]

I don't think there are humans involved.....

 

when Trollocs mated, most of the offspring were Trolloc

 

The way I read that 2 Trollocs mate, Trolloc or a Myrdraal is born, no human involvement other than their original genetic pool.

 

But on the other hand I may be taking that the wrong way, not sure.

[cannon]

Actually there are humans involved. A trolloc male and a trolloc female can not bread. A trolloc male has to bread with a human female. And... well somehow a male human would have to bread with a trolloc female *that poor poor man*

 

You are completely mistaken on this point. Where are you getting your information?

 

Trollocs were initially genetic experiments, mixing human DNA with that of animals. They never bred. As any biologist can tell you, you have to have VERY similar genetic stock in order to produce offspring at all. Humans and wolves just aren't going to do it.

 

Trollocs DO NOT go around raping women in order to increase their numbers. The impracticality of that is staggering. Trollocs breed within their own tribes, and occasionally get a "throwback" to the ORIGINAL human genetics, which we call Mydraal.

 

Take a look at the link. I believe the info comes mostly from the BBoBA:

http://www.wotmania.com/trollocs.asp

[Gandaal]

In answer to the original question, it would indicate to me that a Fade rips, cuts or travels (through their ability to travel through shadow) out of its womb inside a female trolloc. Therefore it was never actually "born" in the natural sense of the word, aka "Neverborn".

 

That's all just supposition from me but it’s probably around the mark.

[Sila Darklover]

Thanks, everybody. :D

I agree that Myrdraal are likely not produced by Trolloc-human breedings for the following reasons:

--They are always referred to simly as "offspring of Trollocs"

--Since nearly all Myrdraal are identical, they seem to come from the same basic stock. Constantly adding new human genes ought to increase diversity.

--Although Trolloc-human breedings can exist (as noted in the TEOTW glossary) they are probably very risky without somebody like Aginor overseeing the process. Since Aginor didn't intend to create Myrdraal, he wouldn't have done that, and even if he had it wouldn't have continued after his defeat.

 

Light, I love being able to discuss this stuff.

[SinisterDeath]

Trollocs were Orginally genetically enginered from human and animal stock. Now they are bread through actually breading, not 'genetic manipulation and test tubes'. Aginor has very little to do with it now.

I can't remember where I read it but I think I know what it was now...

The only sure way a trolloc can bread and make another trolloc with any type of success is with another human.

A mydraal on the other hand is when you bread a trolloc with a Trolloc. The problem is, 75% of the time it results in still births. The other 25% of the time, you get a fade..

Figure a trolloc is half human half animal.

So using a 'whatchamacallitchart'

A = animal

a = human

A a

A AA Aa

a Aa aa

So given that, I think a fade would be the 'aa' and because of its.... stock and parents they come out... disfigured and other things... + the do most certianly helps in the mix.

also lets say a trolloc and a human mate.. but of course theres more to this then just 'Aa Aa or Aa aa'... I do remember reading however that Trollocs do regularilly mate with other humans to make trollocs, and 2 trollocs mating ussualy involves a fade coming into being...

*I just got mixed up earlier on it*

 

Hell, Two trollocs litterally should be like MULES. two very different species mate, ussually results in infertile offspring... Well with aginors 'genetics' he was able to make them fertile.. just not with each other. So basically, instead of the 'two mules' being infertile, they are fertile, its just that there offspring 'die'... And very rarely does a mydraal come into being..

[chuckievi]

Unless the Trollocs keep a "pen" of human breedstock handy and keep replenishing it and don't EAT it, there is no way for that to be possible.

 

Trollocs mate with Trollocs.

[schneb]

SinisterDeath wrote:

Trollocs were Orginally genetically enginered from human and animal stock. Now they are bread through actually breading, not 'genetic manipulation and test tubes'. Aginor has very little to do with it now.

I can't remember where I read it but I think I know what it was now...

The only sure way a trolloc can bread and make another trolloc with any type of success is with another human.

 

I cut out the fruitfly drivel from biology class here.

 

Hell, Two trollocs litterally should be like MULES. two very different species mate, ussually results in infertile offspring... Well with aginors 'genetics' he was able to make them fertile.. just not with each other. So basically, instead of the 'two mules' being infertile, they are fertile, its just that there offspring 'die'... And very rarely does a mydraal come into being..

 

Trollocs were created through genetic manipulation, not through some kind of breeding program. Mules are created from mating a donkey and a horse. Yes this is a crude form of genetic manipulation, but not anything close to what it would take to mix animal and human DNA. Horses and Donkeys are similar enough that mating them is possible. None of the animals that trollocs share traits with are similar enough to humans for reproduction to be possible.

 

As for what you can't remember where you read it, I'm sure that its not in the books, and fairly certain that its not a quote from RJ. I do remember a quote from RJ stating that there are female trollocs in the blight. The numbers don't work out for having to mate with a human to produce a new trolloc. A human female giving birth to a trolloc baby would pretty much be a one shot deal, with the woman either not surviving the birth, or the plumbing down there getting so messed up that she becomes infertile. For the other way around, yes I know there are a lot of randy men out there, but you'd have a hard time getting me to believe that a human male would perform for a trolloc female.

[Lord_Of_The_Eastern_Marsh]

Schneb makes a good point, And as for what the books have said, Like mules, myrdraal are born infertile, they cannot reproduce (although that doesnt satiate their lust) A myrdraal is produced when a trolloc, and another trolloc mate, and due to some random genetic non-comformity a myrdraal is produced rather than a normal healthy trolloc baby. And back to the original question, could it not be that Neverborn, implies that by rights and morals the myrdraal should never have been created, and therefore never born.

[Luckers]

Myrdraal are human throwbacks, not human hybrids. Trollocs mate with female Trollocs. Myrrdraal occaisionally rape human women, but they can't concieve.

[Sila Darklover]

Where in the books does it say Myddraal are sterile? And how was that proven?

[rochaid]

its in the the world of robert jordan's wheel of time,or whatever people like to call it,sila darklover

[Kaldroan]

You said . . .

 

 

rather than a normal healthy trolloc baby.

[Lord_Of_The_Eastern_Marsh]

Your point?

[Sila Darklover]

Where is that, rochaid?

[rochaid]

do you mean what page is it on or where is the book?its on page a hundred.

 

i presume the world of robert jordan's wheel of time can be found on amazon