The Body Swap Theory - Updated. (Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Several of you have PM'd me and asked me to pop this up when I finished it, so I'll take that as a request. I didn't really do much, just formalized it a little and popped in a few tGS references.

 

The Bodyswap Theory - Updated

 

The bodyswap theory began during one of the original discussions about the possibility that the Third Man that Rand began to see in his dreams during tPoD was Moridin. It was based on an attempt by me to solve certain contradictions between the prophecies that relate to Rand's death--contradictions which I thought might be solvable if a link between Rand and Moridin truly did exist. I've always meant to update it, but I just couldn't find the energy. I figure now, with tGS still fresh in people’s minds, is as good a time as any.

 

Rand's Death; A Plethora of Prophecy!

 

There has been alot of theories over the years to explain Rand's death. Each would take one of the various prophecies and run with it--the problem being that whilst these theories might fulfil one of the prophecies, they usually ignored the others. So that is what I looked at--rather than trying to answer a prophecy I chose to see if the prophecies as a whole established any requirements or limitations to the Rand's Death Scenario. Before I state what my final deductions were, here is my compilation of relevant prophecies concerning Rand's death.

 

The Prophecies of Rand's Death

 

1. EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

2. EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

4. MIN VIEWING: three women standing over a funeral bier with [Rand] on it. [tEotW]

 

5. MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

6.1 NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255] [Which we know is Rand because of the next point.]

 

6.2 WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. [LOC: 19, Matters of Toh, 312]

 

7.1 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

7.2 AELFINN ANSWER: [Rand] had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

The Luckers Pick

 

So, as I said, there are many individual answers to each of these prophecies, but if you look at the following three together you can actually begin to establish some restrictions and requirements for Rand’s death.

 

1. To live, you must die.

2. He who is dead yet lives.

3. [Alivia] is going to [help you die].

 

As a result of these three we can establish these following points.

 

1. Rand must actually die. The wording is too clear here to permit him faking his death, or people assuming that he is dead in the event that he disappears, or any derivation thereof. He must actually die (more on this in a second).

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

The Nature of Death

 

Or we could call this part the Nature of Life in the Wheel. All I'm really looking to point out is that due to the cycle of resurrection within the wheel a living person has three distinct parts; body, soul and the manifest personality of the current incarnation. In terms of the theory, the significant part of all this is that 'death' in the world of the wheel is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. 

 

In particular the Forsaken stand in as evidence for this--their bodies died, their souls continued, and even the manifest personality of that incarnation remained cohesive--yet they are still said to have died, and refer to their 'death' in the possessive--it was their death, not simply the death of their body.

 

The Body Swap

 

What is the Body Swap Theory?

 

So keeping all that in mind, let's look at the actual theory. It's actually pretty much what you expect--that Rand and Moridin will swap bodies using the link that formed between them when they crossed their balefire streams. Then Alivia will assist Rand-in-Moridins-body to kill Moridin-in-Rands-body thus 'helping him die' and fulfilling requirement two. At that point Rand will be dead, yet alive fulfilling requirement three, and a part of him will genuinely be dead, under the definitions of death established in this series, fulfilling requirement one.

 

So How Will the Swap Occur?

 

As I said above the link will be what facilitates the link, but taking a closer look at that link can tell us a bit about the how and why. Firstly, the link is growing stronger. From fuzzy perceptions to thoughts crossing over to Rand and Moridin's souls being yanked together for a dream Q&A in tGS we've seen a steady progression and development of this link since it first formed.

 

From there I would bring up the saidin factor. Whilst the link seems to have a certain passive element--with thoughts sliding through unasked--there is also a state to it which can specifically be activated by either Rand or Moridin seizing or releasing saidin. And it is just saidin--which is curious, one would think for Moridin it would be the True Power given that's what he was channeling, but it isn't--Demandred notes that Moridin after three thousand years of using both saidin and the TP has suddenly given up using saidin altogether--ergo, it is saidin which is causing the nausea in him. I wrote a full thread on my thoughts about why its saidin, and why they're experiencing nausea which can be found here if anyone is interested http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,47417.0.html

 

For the sake of the body swap though, all we need to know is that saidin activates the link, and that the link is growing stronger as time passes. My suggestion therefore for how the Swap will happen is that Rand and Moridin will be fighting and Rand will cut Moridin off from the Dark One as he did in tDR. Now I'm aware RJ has said those black threads are not a connection to the Dark One, and that channeling the True Power is simply a matter of the Dark One giving his permission--but the fact remains that in tDR that did cut Ishamael off from the True Power.

 

I've speculated that those threads are the Chosen Mark, and are what enables Ishamael to ask--as in it serves as permission to ask. Whatever it is its involved in the process of asking and recieving in some way. I'm getting off track--the point is that Moridin will be cut off from the True Power, forcing him to draw saidin. Rand and Moridin both channeling saidin at the same time in proximity will activate the link so strongly they their souls will swap bodies.

 

Let's Clean House

 

Soul Transfer and Manipulation

 

One of the commonly raised objections/questions about the Body Swap is the question of the basis for suggesting a swap to even be possible. They point out that only the Dark One's been seen doing that sort of things, and ask what basis there is to suggest Rand and Moridin could even swap intentionally, much less accidentally without effort. The reply to that is that it’s a misconception to think the Dark One is the only one playing with souls. In fact Soul Manipulation is relatively common within the series. Here, off the top of my head.

 

1. Mordeth's soul survives his body’s death and inserts itself into Fain's body--and should have been able to oust Fain except for the Dark One's taint in him.

2. Dreamwalkers/Wolves--from when Perrin stayed in the Dream too long when hunting Faile we know that Dreamwalkers souls actually leave their body to enter TAR. As do Wolves when they sleep or die.

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

4. Machin Shin devours soul’s whole.

 

Of course none of these are specifically what we're suggesting here, they simply serve to establish that the sort of soul manipulation and transferral were talking about is not out of the norm for the Wheel of Time. They cumulatively establish precedent for the general art of Soul Transferral.

 

Conclusions

 

So that's it. I know alot of you don't like the Body Swap. I don't really like it myself, but it fits. And, to date, it is the only one that does fit. But make of it what you will, and try not to rip into me too harshly. I'll cry.  ;D

[Agitel]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, but I really need to think on it more. However, I do think you are wrong about one of Egwene's dreams.

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

I think this may have just been fulfilled at the end of tGS. Rand buries himself, becoming harder (and different), putting on masks to protect himself and others (or so he believes), and then at the end of tGS the masks come off and Rand is Rand again.

[thewalrus777]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, but I really need to think on it more. However, I do think you are wrong about one of Egwene's dreams.

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

I think this may have just been fulfilled at the end of tGS. Rand buries himself, becoming harder (and different), putting on masks to protect himself and others (or so he believes), and then at the end of tGS the masks come off and Rand is Rand again.

 

 

That seems a very reasonable explanation to that viewing. Makes a lot of sense.

[Luckers]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, but I really need to think on it more. However, I do think you are wrong about one of Egwene's dreams.

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

I think this may have just been fulfilled at the end of tGS. Rand buries himself, becoming harder (and different), putting on masks to protect himself and others (or so he believes), and then at the end of tGS the masks come off and Rand is Rand again.

 

Except the mask becomes Rand, it doesn't come off to reveal Rand once more. And Rand definately is moving towards becoming himself again, as opposed to what he thinks he should be (cuendillar Rand).

 

But, you may be right. *shrug*

[cleantoe]

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

This makes sense.

 

I think it means that he can't confront Moridin directly cause Rand will get pwnd. In order to kill Moridin, Rand will kill himself which presumably will also kill Moridin due to their link. Narishma or whoever that was who pulled Callandor will link with Nyneave and another chick and with Nyneave guiding the flows will do the impossible by resurrecting Rand.

[Agitel]

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

This makes sense.

 

I think it means that he can't confront Moridin directly cause Rand will get pwnd. In order to kill Moridin, Rand will kill himself which presumably will also kill Moridin due to their link. Narishma or whoever that was who pulled Callandor will link with Nyneave and another chick and with Nyneave guiding the flows will do the impossible by resurrecting Rand.

 

Nynaeve sure has made a lot of comments about everything being healable EXCEPT death. Maybe she'll discover the Dark One's trick. <_<

[Auld Manriva]

I've kinda bought into the Body Swap thing all along, though I've not read any dissertation like Luckers has written here. I never thought about it near so much nor expressed it even to myself so succinctly.  I'm more of the RAFO school I guess.

 

I'm not sure I buy the mechanics of the swap but I cannot argue against it either. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out at any rate.

 

How does Alivia determine it's really Rand in Moridin's carcass? What happens AFTER this takes place? WHEN does it take place in the timeline?

 

 

 

Here's a thought. What if Rand goes outside the Pattern to directly confront the DO in some manner? Is there a way THIS could fulfill Lucker's list of requirements?

 

 

Wow.. Nynaeve stepping up where Rand could not. Nyn would use Moridins Carcass to stick Rand's soul in or somethin'? Wow..

[Lancer]

You guys are forgetting a couple of things though...

 

1...Rand has to spill his blood on Shyoul Goul in order to defeat the DO, His blood NOT Moridin's

 

2...Perrin & Mat are going to be w/ Rand when get goes to confront the DO...Do you honestly believe that they are just going to stand by and let this body swapping or whatever happen?

 

3...Mat has to give up 1/2 the light of the world in order to save it...Maybe that 1/2 is Rand??? Some people think that it has to do w/ Moiraine and the Aelfin, well I respectfully disagree...Maybe the light of the world is Rand by metaphor...

 

I dunno just my 2 cents.

[thewalrus777]

Rand's blood is IMO irrelevant to which body he's in, it's in regard to him and his soul. Yeah it will be spilt on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, but i don't think which body he would theoretically be in would matter.

 

I don't think Perrin or Mat have to be exactly with him when he confronts the DO. I believe they'll be taking care of the Shadowspawn infesting the land during the LB.

 

However, i do agree that Mat will have to make a huge sacrifice, i just can't say what.

[mossman87]

You guys are forgetting a couple of things though...

 

1...Rand has to spill his blood on Shyoul Goul in order to defeat the DO, His blood NOT Moridin's

I agree

2...Perrin & Mat are going to be w/ Rand when get goes to confront the DO...Do you honestly believe that they are just going to stand by and let this body swapping or whatever happen?

Who says they have any say in the matter?  The Pattern spun them out and made them ta'veren, it'll make sure they are where they are supposed to be.

 

3...Mat has to give up 1/2 the light of the world in order to save it...Maybe that 1/2 is Rand??? Some people think that it has to do w/ Moiraine and the Aelfin, well I respectfully disagree...Maybe the light of the world is Rand by metaphor...

There's too many metaphors at work with Mat, so I'll still assume he's going to lose an eye.

 

I dunno just my 2 cents.

[ed2funy]

Ok...

I'm gonna just pick pieces and starting commenting, sorry if I end up contradicting myself.

I'll try to catch it.

 

 

1. To live, you must die.

1. Rand must actually die. The wording is too clear here to permit him faking his death, or people assuming that he is dead in the event that he disappears, or any derivation thereof. He must actually die (more on this in a second).

 

I don't think it clearly states he must physically die. Can he not be dead in spirit, or in mind.

Not that I think it is referring to it, but you could say Rand was almost dead in tGS, because of the way he was acting.

Just saying, it doesn't say he must physically die. Prophecies can be tricky bastards.

 

I also think this may contradict the part where you say he cannot fake it.

...but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

 

This implies it was not really him, but a puppet of some sort.

Also, going with the theme that he doesn't have to physically die, it is possible he could fake his death.

---

3. [Alivia] is going to [help you die].

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

Although I pretty much agree. I kind of don't (perhaps the Devil's advocate in me? Trying to find some argument?).

If I were to help you die. It does not necessarily mean you were trying to die yourself.

---

 

 

2. He who is dead yet lives.

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

Ok. On this one, I am going with the thing where he is not actually dead. If a part of him (like going Darth Rand could be said killed Rand) was dead, he would still live.

---

Really, you keep saying the language is clear, but when is prophecy ever clear?

 

In particular the Forsaken stand in as evidence for this--their bodies died, their souls continued, and even the manifest personality of that incarnation remained cohesive--yet they are still said to have died, and refer to their 'death' in the possessive--it was their death, not simply the death of their body.

 

This could be used in my argument. His personality dies, but not him. He is dead, yet he is alive.

---

 

I believe the link to Moridin is only going to provide a link to the DO to help Rand seal the BOre, or w/e he needs to do to win.

---

 

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

 

A sort of side argument note:

 

I believe the hedgehog and the ring ter'angreals are totally different.

Faile and Perrin were pulled in (their souls) so strongly, that seemed not to breath.

When someone uses the ring, they seem to be sleeping normally.

 

I may be wrong on this, but I think there is a difference.

---

 

Agitel:

On the third prophecy listed by Luckers...

I have to concur with you there.

 

Luckers:

On your reply to that prophecy, I think you are just taking it too literal again.

 

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

IMO, I don't think the mask becomes him, but in fact, is revealing him.

If that is so, I wouldn't say that he became s old self, but a mixture of all his 'selves'. he won't be the innocent little happy don't kill any woman rand, but neither will he let each woman's death scar his soul.

---

 

[Luckers]

3. That some aspect of himself must survive his death... and I mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resuscitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. Concurrent states. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives.

 

This makes sense.

 

I think it means that he can't confront Moridin directly cause Rand will get pwnd. In order to kill Moridin, Rand will kill himself which presumably will also kill Moridin due to their link. Narishma or whoever that was who pulled Callandor will link with Nyneave and another chick and with Nyneave guiding the flows will do the impossible by resurrecting Rand.

 

I think your perhaps misunderstanding what I was saying here--I was saying that in my opinion resurrection or resucitation would not work. He has to die and be alive at the same time, not die and come back to life.

 

How does Alivia determine it's really Rand in Moridin's carcass? What happens AFTER this takes place? WHEN does it take place in the timeline?

 

Those would be the variables we can't really predict. Oh, I think Rand could convince Alivia of who he is with relative ease just through talking to her. Possibly she even sees the swap occur--but in the long run that's stuff not spoken of in prophecy.

 

I can give you a few ideas I've had--little thoughts which are mostly guesses. One thing I think will happen after is Logain will take control of the Black Tower. In the dream Logain steps over "Rand's" dead body onto a black stone which I suggest is the speaking stone from the Black Tower, thus showing that with Rand's apparently dead Logain steps forward to claim authority.

 

I used to have this theory that Moridin would live as a beggar for some time after Tarmon Gai'don--that we would see the epilogue through his eyes, and his bitterness as considers how the world is fairing whereupon Rand-in-Moridin's body and Alivia would find him and kill him. Sort of a not-cheesy and lame version of Rowling's '19 years later' epilogue. Obviously though with the beggar prophecy fulfilled in tGS I've been proven wrong.

 

As I said there is much yet we don't know.

 

You guys are forgetting a couple of things though...

 

1...Rand has to spill his blood on Shyoul Goul in order to defeat the DO, His blood NOT Moridin's

 

Invariably someone points this out every time. No, I'm not forgetting it. We do not know how that will play out--it could be a non-fatal wound, Rand could be injured badly just before the swap bleeding everywhere. It may not even refer to Rand, it might refer to the Aiel (who are his blood in the racial sense) dying in large numbers trying to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last day.

 

And yes, it could still plausibly be the blood of Rand's body coming from Moridin in Rand's body. We have a cited reference to the Ogier Trayal who is still named so despite the fact that his soul no longer inhabited his body, which provides us with a precedent to continue to call Rand's blood 'Rand's blood' even though Rand's personality has since departed.

 

We simply don't know enough to make solid predictions about this event, but that doesn't speak to the predictions I have made about the swap.

 

2...Perrin & Mat are going to be w/ Rand when get goes to confront the DO...Do you honestly believe that they are just going to stand by and let this body swapping or whatever happen?

 

How would they stop it? Besides they'll have their own battles to fight, and its probably not going to be just those three anyway. There will be armies needed to attack Shayol Ghoul.

 

3...Mat has to give up 1/2 the light of the world in order to save it...Maybe that 1/2 is Rand??? Some people think that it has to do w/ Moiraine and the Aelfin, well I respectfully disagree...Maybe the light of the world is Rand by metaphor...

 

Maybe it is. Given the dreams surrounding him losing an eye I go more for that interpretation, but who knows. I don't really see the relevance to the Body Swap though--are you suggesting Mat might choose to allow it to happen, that that is his sacrifice?

 

Quote

1. To live, you must die.

 

Quote

1. Rand must actually die. The wording is too clear here to permit him faking his death, or people assuming that he is dead in the event that he disappears, or any derivation thereof. He must actually die (more on this in a second).

 

I don't think it clearly states he must physically die. Can he not be dead in spirit, or in mind.

Not that I think it is referring to it, but you could say Rand was almost dead in tGS, because of the way he was acting.

Just saying, it doesn't say he must physically die. Prophecies can be tricky bastards.

 

I also think this may contradict the part where you say he cannot fake it.

 

Quote

...but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

 

This implies it was not really him, but a puppet of some sort.

Also, going with the theme that he doesn't have to physically die, it is possible he could fake his death.

 

I don't agree. It is clear that something is off about the corpse he leaves, but it is also made clear that it is a corpse, and recall that is not the only reference to death. Perhaps one reference we could construe as a metaphor but the cumulative state is too clear--he must actually die in some manor. Not fake his death, not be believed to be dead, not undergo a sense of spiritual mortality--die. Physically die.

 

Quote

Quote

3. [Alivia] is going to [help you die].

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

Although I pretty much agree. I kind of don't (perhaps the Devil's advocate in me? Trying to find some argument?).

If I were to help you die. It does not necessarily mean you were trying to die yourself.

 

It sort of does. That's what 'helping' is. Assisting someone in attaining something they want or need. That Alivia will help Rand die means that dying is Rand's intention in some manner.

 

Quote

In particular the Forsaken stand in as evidence for this--their bodies died, their souls continued, and even the manifest personality of that incarnation remained cohesive--yet they are still said to have died, and refer to their 'death' in the possessive--it was their death, not simply the death of their body.

 

This could be used in my argument. His personality dies, but not him. He is dead, yet he is alive.

 

The 'death' here was the death of the body, so I don't see where in that we can suggest the term might be applied to the ceasation of alteration of the facet personality. Indeed Trayal the Ogier's soul and thus personality were destroyed by Machin Shin, but he is not termed to be dead.

 

Besides, maybe its just the optimist in me, but I would prefer for Rand to survive the Last Battle as Rand.

 

Quote

3. Ter’angreal--the above obviously means that the dream ter'angreal can pull peoples souls out of their bodies. Also the hedgehog that captured Faile captured her soul and pulled it almost all the way out of her body.

 

A sort of side argument note:

 

I believe the hedgehog and the ring ter'angreals are totally different.

Faile and Perrin were pulled in (their souls) so strongly, that seemed not to breath.

When someone uses the ring, they seem to be sleeping normally.

 

I may be wrong on this, but I think there is a difference.

 

Only in degree, not effect. When a dreamer enters the dream part of the soul remains in the body and keeps in dreaming--they can change how much, even retaining most allowing them to be aware of both the waking world and the dream world, or giving up most which can lead to death.

 

The dreaming ter'angreal leaves part of the soul in the body to keep in working. The Hedgehog pulls most of the soul into TAR, which eventually results in death. The function is the same, it's the degree which is different.

 

Agitel:

On the third prophecy listed by Luckers...

I have to concur with you there.

 

Luckers:

On your reply to that prophecy, I think you are just taking it too literal again.

 

 

Quote

3. EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

IMO, I don't think the mask becomes him, but in fact, is revealing him.

If that is so, I wouldn't say that he became s old self, but a mixture of all his 'selves'. he won't be the innocent little happy don't kill any woman rand, but neither will he let each woman's death scar his soul.

 

It's not really important if this is unrelated, and you may think this is too literal--but it does say it clearly. One of the masks becomes Rand's real face, not falls away to reveal Rand's real face as the reversion to his old self would be framed.

[ed2funy]

I still disagree on the having to physically die part.

But, really, there is only the quote right now, and I don't think arguing over those few lines will bring either conclusions or one of us to the other side of the argument.

So, unless you have a really good point to argue, I am just gonna sort of let my opinion stand as it is.

---

 

I guess I will concede on the argument of Alivia helping him die.

But again, as even you point out, there are different ways to die and yet live in the world of the Wheel.

He may be faking it still.

---

 

Indeed Trayal the Ogier's soul and thus personality were destroyed by Machin Shin, but he is not termed to be dead.

 

I would rather have Rand live to (personality and all), but I am just providing an argument. :)

He may not be termed dead...but in essence he is dead.

Do you know what book it is in and chapter? I want to read it if I have the book....

---

 

Ok...just wasn't sure on the Ter'angreal...

*Retracts statement*

---

 

It's not really important if this is unrelated, and you may think this is too literal--but it does say it clearly. One of the masks becomes Rand's real face, not falls away to reveal Rand's real face as the reversion to his old self would be framed.

 

Ok...I will go with that.

But how does it relate to the Body Switch?

It could be this as well:

If that is so, I wouldn't say that he became s old self, but a mixture of all his 'selves'. he won't be the innocent little happy don't kill any woman rand, but neither will he let each woman's death scar his soul.

 

 

GO ahead....tear it to shreds....

:D

[ed2funy]

Just wanted to add...

Dreams are not Foretellings, and are not things that will happen for sure....

 

The masks one might have become null and void when Rand had his epiphany...

 

::) Just saying...

[Luckers]

Quote

It's not really important if this is unrelated, and you may think this is too literal--but it does say it clearly. One of the masks becomes Rand's real face, not falls away to reveal Rand's real face as the reversion to his old self would be framed.

 

Ok...I will go with that.

But how does it relate to the Body Switch?

 

Because he does keep shifting faces--iron Rand, steel Rand, cuendillar Rand, happy Rand, Moridin Rand. Then the mask settles and thats who he is.

 

But yeah, that's flimsy, and you may well be right. That one may have nothing to do with the Body Swap.

 

Dreams are not Foretellings, and are not things that will happen for sure....

 

The masks one might have become null and void when Rand had his epiphany...

 

True enough. The only dream I actively reguard to be false is the one about the Seanchan lining up women with the Great Serpent ring to bring lightning down on the Tower. Oh, its possible some of the initiates taken in the raid were Accepted, and even that the Seanchan might find some ex-Accepted amongst captured Kin... but honestly I don't see it lol.

 

 

[ed2funy]

*smiles*

 

I may have been partially right?

 

lol....

:D

[Luckers]

*smiles*

 

I may have been partially right?

 

lol....

:D

 

Woah! Let's not go crazy.

[bryguy299]

First time poster, I have been lurking for a few days since finishing TGS.

 

Regarding the "Rand has to die to live again" plotline, I have just thought of something, in reading this thread.

 

What if the only way for Rand to beat the Dark One is to die, then face off with the DO in his own realm?  Obviously the DO has some power of life and death, as in the resurrections of Lanfear, Aginor and Balthamel.  Perhaps the alternate reality/pocket dimension he resides in is some sort of afterlife. 

 

There has been some discussion about Rand resealing the Bore vs. destroying/beating the Dark One.  Would it not stand to reason that to actually fight the DO, Rand has to enter his realm?  And would it not make sense that to enter the DO's realm, Rand has to die?

 

Perhaps Alivia will help Rand cross over, then after the battle with the Dark One, Narishma uses Callandor to pull Rand "back" from the Dark One's realm.  To die and yet live. 

 

If death cannot be healed, perhaps Narishma will pull Rand's soul back into reality, through TAR.  There has been cases close to this, ie. Brigitte, Perrin, Egwene.  Therefore Rand would not actually be brought back to life.  Maybe Rand's soul would enter Moridin's body, enabling said Body Switch.

 

To sum up my thoughts:

 

1.  Rand "dies" with Alivia's assistance, so he can enter the Dark One's realm.

2.  Rand battles and defeats the Dark One, or not.

3.  Narishma uses Callandor to pull Rand's soul back into reality into Moridin's body.

4.  Rand and his ladies take a boat ride, and live happily ever after.

 

I'm not sure if this idea has been thought of yet.  Just throwing it out there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shard]

Thanks for explaining the theory Luckers. However I always thought that Rand would be faking his death. I am not a fan of faking death but even less so  of body swap. Though I don't think ressurection should be discounted. If he is body swapped he won't have died at all but switched bodies.

[Mr. Insane]

    The citizens of hinderstrap repeatedly "die and live again".  I was not a big fan of the chapters Mat spent in hinderstrap, but I could not shake the thought that it had to have more importance than it seemed.  It seems possible that Rand will just reappear and it will be explained away as the pattern correcting itself.

[TheAngryDruid]

Great work (again) from Luckers, and a great theory. A few thoughts.

 

Concerning Egwene's dreams and one in particular.

 

Some dreams are just potential futures (like the Rhuidean rings). Even the Wise Ones can't pinpoint all possible futures from their Dreams. We don't know the certainty of some of these Dreams from Egwene, so I wouldn't put as much weight on them as Min's viewings or answers from the Fins.

 

Specifically, we don't even know if the man in a bed who is dying but needs to live is Rand. It could be anyone (Ituralde, Dobraine, Logain, or someone we haven't met yet). Further, if it was Rand (or anyone Egwene knew) she may have recognized them.

 

Concerning Prophecies and Interpretations

 

Any prophecy could have been corrupted by the Forsaken or the DO. So they are inherently unreliable, and shouldn't be on par with Min's viewings or the Fins.

 

Even if uncorrupted, interpretation can be tricky (as we've seen with Elaida's fortellings, and Moiraine missing "leading the Spears to war"). This interpretation would also apply to the answers of the Fins and even Min's viewings.

 

Point being, I think some may be too literal here, especially on life and death and blood on the rocks. I'm not saying you aren't correct, you very well may be, but I don't think the language used precludes other interpretations.

 

His blood on the rocks = could be a blood relative (Galad, Luc). Or a child of his.

 

To live, you must die = who knows? Could be a part of himself (LTT?). Or a part of how he views himself (Rand the Shephard from Two Rivers).

 

I agree wholeheartedly about the concurrent status of being dead, yet living. But again, it could be a little less literal.

 

 

 

 

 

[Terez]

I agree on the 'Rand must die' part; I even have a new faction at Theoryland that says as much.  But as to how Rand could be dead and alive at the same time.....

 

TITLE - The Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 52 - Need

 

What are you doing here? I know that you all vanished after the Horn of Valere called you, but you are..." She trailed off, a trifle flustered at what she had been about to say, but the other woman calmly finished for her.

 

  "Dead? Those of us who are bound to the Wheel are not dead as others are dead. Where better for us to wait until the Wheel weaves us out in new lives than in the World of Dreams?" Birgitte laughed suddenly. "I begin to talk as if I were a philosopher. In almost every life I can remember I was born a simple girl who took up the bow. I am an archer, no more."

[lordofsoup]

about what bryguy299 said, would it be possible for Rand to die, but then when his soul returns to the Dream World like all the hero's of the Horn who die, to blast him back out to fight again, like what Moggy did to Brigitte?

[Terez]

about what bryguy299 said, would it be possible for Rand to die, but then when his soul returns to the Dream World like all the hero's of the Horn who die, to blast him back out to fight again, like what Moggy did to Brigitte?

 

Yes.  I think this became somewhat more likely after The Gathering Storm.  It's starting to become almost obligatory that Rand finds a way to survive, since he thinks about doing just that so often.  In this book, we are reminded that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once in order to remember it, and she was there when Moghedien ripped Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod.  It was done with the Power:

 

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

 

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte's head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

 

  The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

 

  The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

 

  Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.

Furthermore, this was only a bad thing when it was done to Birgitte because it disrupted her rebirth cycle.  Rand's wouldn't be disrupted at all.

 

Finally, there is a lot of foreshadowing in the books, that Nynaeve will find a way to 'Heal' death.  Having an actual weave to Heal death would be lame, as death and rebirth are a part of the way the world works, but this could easily be a special case scenario.

[Morsmordre]

I don't think there will be a body swap :/ To my mind, the link is involved in something else - perhaps in explaining how Rand managed to channel the TP - but not this. Rand has to spill his blood in the Bore. I'm not sure if this is meant literally or figuratively but Alivia is going to help him do exactly that. Rand has to kill Moridin in order to get to the Bore. Perhaps, in his fight with Moridin, he's going to be severely wounded. The only way I see it is that Alivia is going to help him transfer his soul into the Dream World. It's probably connected to the way damane predict the future. We know that all damane can do that so it IS connected to the OP. But swapping bodies..? I don't think so.

 

There is one thing that bothers my mind and I think this is just the place to mention it. Don't the Fins speak the Old Tongue O.o Isn't Death in the Old Tongue Moridin? What is the word for Live and Die? If there will be a body swap, perhaps this is the clue... Whatever, I find it too fantastic. I kind of like it more to think that Rand is going to burn himself from the OP by collecting all of it (all that exists) and smashing the DO with it...