Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[thisguy]

A lot of the Aes Sedai annoy me because of the way they try to control Rand. Moraine is one of the few main Aes Sedai characters that I just plain like. Nynaeve, too (she annoyed me at first but she's grown into a great character, imo). Egwene went the other way for me. I felt neither way, really - then liked her - now I just get annoyed a lot when I read her chapters. Personally, if she tried being Rand's friend, and not somebody who thinks he should bend knee, I'd probably like her more. I don't feel that she's his enemy but she doesn't seem like much of an ally either. Nynaeve I feel is one of his best friends in the whole book. She, Min, Aviendha and Thom Merrilon - Lan and Morraine, too - are probably the main characters who have his back the most. I feel for the dude. Even with a broken white tower, Egwene is a very powerful person at this point but she's a selfish pain in the butt.

[thisguy]

Question: I'm rereading book one - the first time Min speaks to Rand alone he asks her whats she sees around them. When she talks about Matt she mentions the red eagle - I'm assuming that's for Manetheren. I'm wondering if that was a mistake and was meant for Perrin or if Mr. Jordan originally thought Matt would become the leader of the Two Rivers. Anybody know?

[Luckers]

Actually studies show that ignoring mental illness is the least effective and most destructive response possible, and self treatment most commonly leads to addiction issues--whether narcotics, alcohol or otherwise. That is where your comments are the most offensive. You've clearly reached the conclusion that mental illness can be simply ignored or controlled by someone with a strong enough will... and you are wrong. Studies have shown you are wrong. This is not even under debate by the psychological community. In fact, this attitude--that a person should be able to control their mental problems, and that their failure to do so is indicative of weak will--has been directly connected to incidences of suicide.

 

Or am I the one that is wrong? Sorry, you have stated directly now that you have studied mental illness. What precisely did you study? For myself, I studied abnormal psychology and addiction at Sydney University.

 

Show me where I said, SHOULD. I didn't. I said can, and it has been done, which is not up for debate. Again, stop taking my comments out of context and lumpng me in with people you have an issue with. It has occured, succesfully. Am I suggesting it to people, no. Have I suggested people do it? No I haven't, although you assume I have.

 

I wasn't lumping you in with anyone else. I was responding to you, and you alone. Your position is offensive.

 

And as to the weak will part, that's open to debate, and can never be proven either way. It will always be an idea, that will never be disproven.

 

Psychologically and psychochemically, no, this is not subject to debate. It has been proven that mental illness--including things like alcohol and gambling addiction which are the most commonly cited 'they lack the will to fight their urges' mental issues--involves a neurochemical effect that changes perception itself. Their brains literally train themselves to negate inclinations to act against their illness on a chemical level, thereby nullifying willpower.

 

Furthermore its been proven that those who find ways to deal with their illness on their own invariably have shot themselves in the foot in the long run, but even so if you have managed to find a sustainable way to deal with your issues--more power to you. But the presentation that it is no more than a matter of willpower is both ignorent and offensive.

 

Saying weak will however makes it offensive, and I do believe I never used that termology, instead I said someone with a strong will, or extremely strong will.

 

And you don't see the judgement inherent in that comment? If you aren't strong, what does that make you?

 

If you wish to take it as an offensive statement, that's your choice. But it's not intended in that way.

 

I believe you did not intend to be offensive. I believe your attitude is nonetheless deeply offensive. It is ignorent. It is arrogant. Had you stated that you had an experience with mental illness and overcame it through will power, and thought maybe others could too, that would be one thing. You didn't. Your comments have at all stages disdained those who did not achieve the same control over their issues as you believe you have, both by inference and directly.

 

Because they disregard the severe issues that the mentally ill face in their lives.

 

Comparing mental issues with other mental issues disregards the severe issues mentally ill people face in their lives? Howso? I didn't compare to something that wasn't a mental illness, unless you're speaking of something else.

 

Comparison requires a detailed understanding of both sides of the comparison. You lack that--what you are doing is viewing things through the lens of your own experience, and the information you've gathered in dealing with your own experience. That is not comparison--it's judgement. An assessment of another based on your own position.

 

And that is precisely why it offends me so deeply. You presume to judge others, based not on a study of their experience, but on an understanding of your own laid over theirs.

 

The fact that person 1 can function with a gunshot wound, while person 2 passes out from the pain doesn't mean person 2 is weak, but instead points to the fact that perhaps person 1 is extremely strong-willed.

 

Actually it doesn't, it points to person 2 having a greater pain threshold, which has numerous causes both psychological and physiological.

 

This sort of simplistic assessment of effect being simply the cause of willpower is precisely why I name your position both ignorent, presumptive and offensive.

 

Most of my studies have been on a personal level, i.e. not in school but on my own time. Books, papers, seminars, and discussions, mostly on OCD and depression, although some on alcoholism. Basic pysc classes at University.

 

That is not a valid foundation for the statements you have made. Basic psych would have covered what... social psych? An introduction to nuerochemistry? Ethics? Did you even touch on abnormal psychology? Everyone knows basic psych is more about training a student to think in psychological terms than it is about the information it provides. From there you have books... papers... seminars... self-study, all viewed and judged only by you, viewed through the lens of your own experience.

 

Look, I appreciate that you have explored this, but you have made bold declarative statements that are... well, to be frank, baseless, wrong and offensive.

 

Yes, they are. And you apparently have them, by your statements. And I presume that you regard that as a reason your statements should be regarded as informed.

 

That being said, whilst I sympathise with your personal situation, you have displayed a deep and clear lack of knowledge about mental illness, and thus, no, I do not hold that your own conditions lend weight to your argument.

 

I'm sorry.

 

Never stated that. My arguments stand firm. Unless of course you're debating that no one has ever defeated mental illness without the assistance of medication, which of course you won't. You will however continue to ignore my posts or quote half of my statement in an attempt to make it seem I am saying something I am not. But I'll make it clearer since it's apparently not already clear:

 

I do not speak in definates or abesolutes. The evidence proves, numbers or percentages withstanding since the numbers are at best an estimate, that mental illnesses have been beaten succesfully without aid of medication, and sometimes without outside help. Are you refuting this?

 

No. I've said this four times now.

 

 

Specific to your question: "Are you implying OCD cannot be overcame without the aid of drugs? (This one I know for a lie, because I deal with it myself, same with depression)".

 

My answer was, and remains, no.

 

Beyond that, yes, I do thank you for allowing me to clarify. I no longer think you have no understanding of mental illness, I now believe you have a mistaken understanding of mental illness based on your own experiences.

 

And again I state, I'm not basing everything on my own experiences, although they were what lead me to do a deeper evaluation and study.

 

A base is the bottom foundation of something. If your own experiences are what led you to deeper evaluation then the base of your understanding is indeed your own experience, and furthermore the degree of misinformation present in your posts suggests to me that you are viewing all information on the subject matter through the lens of your own experience.

 

Certainly your position on the realities of will power in relation to mental illness are deeply incorrect, and seem based very heavily in your own experience and your personal need to distance yourself from the concept that suffering a mental illness is in some way due to a personal failing of willpower.

 

And it's Dealt not deal.

 

I presume you are speaking of this: "Are you implying OCD cannot be overcame without the aid of drugs? (This one I know for a lie, because I deal with it myself, same with depression)"

 

I copy and pasted that from your own post. Were you endevouring to rephrase yourself? If so it is acknowledged.

 

And you still haven't clarified that part about grouping that statement with the others implying it was wrong, but I suppose you won't.

 

What part of 'no' is unclear? Would yes do better? Yes, mental illness can be treated without medicine. Behavioural modification techniques have often proven far more effective in the long run.

[Luckers]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

[Suttree]

Question: I'm rereading book one - the first time Min speaks to Rand alone he asks her whats she sees around them. When she talks about Matt she mentions the red eagle - I'm assuming that's for Manetheren. I'm wondering if that was a mistake and was meant for Perrin or if Mr. Jordan originally thought Matt would become the leader of the Two Rivers. Anybody know?

 

I always took it for another hint that Mat could be Aemon reborn.

[thisguy]

Question: I'm rereading book one - the first time Min speaks to Rand alone he asks her whats she sees around them. When she talks about Matt she mentions the red eagle - I'm assuming that's for Manetheren. I'm wondering if that was a mistake and was meant for Perrin or if Mr. Jordan originally thought Matt would become the leader of the Two Rivers. Anybody know?

 

I always took it for another hint that Mat could be Aemon reborn.

You could be right. I'd love to get my hands on RJ's notes. I'm willing to bet that not everything was set in stone and he changed certain things as he went along. there's really very little said about Perrin by Min that first time - she saw a wolf and one other thing which is eluding me right now. That's it.

[Finnssss22]

Question: I'm rereading book one - the first time Min speaks to Rand alone he asks her whats she sees around them. When she talks about Matt she mentions the red eagle - I'm assuming that's for Manetheren. I'm wondering if that was a mistake and was meant for Perrin or if Mr. Jordan originally thought Matt would become the leader of the Two Rivers. Anybody know?

 

I always took it for another hint that Mat could be Aemon reborn.

You could be right. I'd love to get my hands on RJ's notes. I'm willing to bet that not everything was set in stone and he changed certain things as he went along. there's really very little said about Perrin by Min that first time - she saw a wolf and one other thing which is eluding me right now. That's it.

 

A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.

 

Then, later in tDR, about Perrin she adds..."An Aielman in a cage. A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think."

 

The most confusing things she said was about Mat in regards to the Red Eagle. According to RJ, everything Min sees is from the future only and nothing Mat has done from that point has had anything to do with Manetheren or the Red Eagle. That's all in his past, not his future to this point.

Perrin has had more to do with the Red Eagle than Mat has so far.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Finnssss

[thisguy]

Question: I'm rereading book one - the first time Min speaks to Rand alone he asks her whats she sees around them. When she talks about Matt she mentions the red eagle - I'm assuming that's for Manetheren. I'm wondering if that was a mistake and was meant for Perrin or if Mr. Jordan originally thought Matt would become the leader of the Two Rivers. Anybody know?

 

I always took it for another hint that Mat could be Aemon reborn.

You could be right. I'd love to get my hands on RJ's notes. I'm willing to bet that not everything was set in stone and he changed certain things as he went along. there's really very little said about Perrin by Min that first time - she saw a wolf and one other thing which is eluding me right now. That's it.

 

A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.

 

Then, later in tDR, about Perrin she adds..."An Aielman in a cage. A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think."

Right. I wonder what the trees are.

[Terez]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

[Terez]

The most confusing things she said was about Mat in regards to the Red Eagle. According to RJ, everything Min sees is from the future only and nothing Mat has done from that point has had anything to do with Manetheren or the Red Eagle. That's all in his past, not his future to this point.

Perrin has had more to do with the Red Eagle than Mat has so far.

 

Yes, but the Seanchan have the Red Eagle, and Mat is married to the Empress. And Mat has memories from Manetheren, some of which predate his visit to the Eelfinn. He shouts Manetheren battle cries in book one. So despite Perrin's association with the flag, I think Mat has had more to do with Manetheren than Perrin has so far.

[Terez]

Ah! You're right about that. I'm just rereading for the first time in a long time. Sorry.

It's cool. I really may have missed a moment where LTT took over his body. The only thing I can think of that was close was when Rand made a comment about if he gave in now, he knew that LTT would be in control and he would be a voice in his head.

 

But other than that, all LTT taking over was channeling which technically is a mental thing only.

How about the time in FoH (chapter 3) where Rand failed to respond o his own name, but did respond to Lews Therin?

 

They were not two men, and never had been. Rand was remembering at the time, though he hadn't yet realized it. (He didn't do that until the next chapter, if I recall. That was chapter 4 or 5; Lanfear showed up in chapter 6 and Rand realized that he was remembering her from Lews Therin's life.)

[thisguy]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

[Suttree]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Yes because the memories were real.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Suttree

[thisguy]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Yes because the memories were real.

I'm with you.

[Terez]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

[thisguy]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him. The Rand from the 2rivers didn't know many of the things the LTT personality knew.

[Finnssss22]

Ah! You're right about that. I'm just rereading for the first time in a long time. Sorry.

It's cool. I really may have missed a moment where LTT took over his body. The only thing I can think of that was close was when Rand made a comment about if he gave in now, he knew that LTT would be in control and he would be a voice in his head.

 

But other than that, all LTT taking over was channeling which technically is a mental thing only.

How about the time in FoH (chapter 3) where Rand failed to respond o his own name, but did respond to Lews Therin?

 

They were not two men, and never had been. Rand was remembering at the time, though he hadn't yet realized it. (He didn't do that until the next chapter, if I recall. That was chapter 4 or 5; Lanfear showed up in chapter 6 and Rand realized that he was remembering her from Lews Therin's life.)

 

 

Oh I agree that Mat is much more deeply connected to Manetheren and the Red Eagle than Perrin is. Mat is after all either Aemon reborn or a direct bloodline descendant of his.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Mat has had very little to do with the Red Eagle or Manetheren yet that, IMO, has been worthy of Min's vision.

 

I have often thought of the possibility of Mat taking up the flag Perrin gave up to Tylee as well. That would actually be pretty cool IMO.

 

It's not however the only early vision that seems a little off though. The vision of Lan, a babe with a sword in its cradle. At least that has an easier possible explanation in that it could be Lan's son?

 

It's just hard to get around the notion that these two very early visions are a tad on the "early bookism" side. Not quite the right word but I think you know what I mean. Possibly something RJ put in before he fully cemented the idea that Min's visions are purely of the future.

 

Still one book to go though so we shall see.

[Terez]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him.

 

No, Lews Therin's memories were informing Rand. This rarely happened via the 'voice'. The memories and the voice are not the same thing.

[thisguy]

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him.

 

No, Lews Therin's memories were informing Rand. This rarely happened via the 'voice'. The memories and the voice are not the same thing.

Interesting theory. Seriously. But, he's been hearing the voice for more than a few days. And, if LTT's memories are informing Rand, wouldn't his voice and mannerisms be part of those memories?

[Terez]

Oh I agree that Mat is much more deeply connected to Manetheren and the Red Eagle than Perrin is. Mat is after all either Aemon reborn or a direct bloodline descendant of his.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Mat has had very little to do with the Red Eagle or Manetheren yet that, IMO, has been worthy of Min's vision.

 

Perrin hasn't really either. He's been involved with the Two Rivers. Yes, they are descendants of those who lived in Manetheren, but they hardly know anything about it. Mat remembers.

 

It's not however the only early vision that seems a little off though. The vision of Lan, a babe with a sword in its cradle. At least that has an easier possible explanation in that it could be Lan's son?

 

I believe it represents the oath Lan took as a baby. He has accepted the part about fighting the Shadow all his life, but he's refused to lead his people as their king. One might say he fulfilled it when he led the charge at Tarwin's Gap because that's the first time in his life that he really and truly accepted his role.

[thisguy]

Oh I agree that Mat is much more deeply connected to Manetheren and the Red Eagle than Perrin is. Mat is after all either Aemon reborn or a direct bloodline descendant of his.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Mat has had very little to do with the Red Eagle or Manetheren yet that, IMO, has been worthy of Min's vision.

 

Perrin hasn't really either. He's been involved with the Two Rivers. Yes, they are descendants of those who lived in Manetheren, but they hardly know anything about it. Mat remembers.

 

It's not however the only early vision that seems a little off though. The vision of Lan, a babe with a sword in its cradle. At least that has an easier possible explanation in that it could be Lan's son?

 

I believe it represents the oath Lan took as a baby. He has accepted the part about fighting the Shadow all his life, but he's refused to lead his people as their king. One might say he fulfilled it when he led the charge at Tarwin's Gap because that's the first time in his life that he really and truly accepted his role.

 

I had the same problem rereading this time. Since the Red Eagle has been unfurled by Perrin's men, I couldn't understand why the eagle wasn't seen around him by min. Aemon's bloodline/Aemon reborn does make sense, though.

[shortkut]

But the reasons listed so far do not have it being Mat's future, but rather his past

[Terez]

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him.

No, Lews Therin's memories were informing Rand. This rarely happened via the 'voice'. The memories and the voice are not the same thing.

Interesting theory. Seriously. But, he's been hearing the voice for more than a few days. And, if LTT's memories are informing Rand, wouldn't his voice and mannerisms be part of those memories?

 

That process began in TSR at the latest. Rand finally accepted that he was the Dragon Reborn when he took Callandor, and assumed that he had to leave the shepherd boy behind completely.

 

Limping to the foot of the bed, he lowered himself into the chest there and laid Callandor across his knees, bloody hands resting on the glowing blade. With that in his hands, even one of the Forsaken would fear him. In a moment he would send for Moiraine to Heal his wounds. In a moment he would speak to the Aiel outside, and become the Dragon Reborn again. But for now, he only wanted to sit, and remember a shepherd named Rand al'Thor.

 

Did the memories influence that process, or was it all a product of Rand's new responsibilities? I think it was probably a combination of several things. The first recognizable Lews Therin memory was in a dream he had in TEOTW Chapter 9, "Tellings of the Wheel". Some say his rapid progress with the sword was facilitated by as-yet-unconscious memories. (That, and being trained by the best swordsman on the planet.) Some say the relative ease with which he accepted his role as a leader in TGH was unconsciously influenced by the memories. Then, at Falme, he has vague memories of the Heroes, thinking that he had known there would be less than 100 of them. He remembered their ancient names. In TDR we hardly see him at all, but this is where he begins to show the signs of taint madness. But was that influenced by the severe pressure he was under? You can count on it. It's never simple.

 

So, he takes Callandor, leaves the shepherd boy behind, and we get his first blatant non-dreaming memory of Lews Therin when he's talking to Lanfear a few chapters later.

 

"I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow. The turnings of the Wheel passed me by. Now you see me as I am, and I have you in my hands." She drew a fingernail along his jaw hard enough to make him flinch. "The time for games and subterfuge is past, Lews Therin. Long past."

 

His stomach lurched. "Do you mean to kill me, then? The Light burn you—"

 

"Kill you?" she spat incredulously. "Kill you! I mean to have you, forever. You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!"

 

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from?

 

Selene—Lanfear—seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly. "You've learned much—you have done much I'd not have believed you could, unaided—but you are still fumbling your way through a maze in the dark, and your ignorance may kill you."

 

And all through the book, the subtle changes in Rand's personality become more evident. There are a couple of good ones in Mat's POV—one of them is in someone's sig, I forget whose—but this one is probably the best. Some think it is foreshadowing of Rand's Darkfriend-spotting abilities.

 

"His eyes," Rand said without looking away from the wagons. "A dangerous man."

 

Mat frowned at him. "Whose eyes? Couladin's?"

 

"Kadere's eyes. All that sweating, going white in the face. Yet his eyes never changed. You always have to watch the eyes. Not what he seems."

 

"Sure, Rand." Mat shifted in his saddle, half lifted his reins as if to ride on. Maybe silence had not been so bad. "You have to watch the eyes."

 

Rand changed his study to the tops of the nearest spires and buttes, twisting his head this way and that. "Time is the risk," he murmured. "Time sets snares. I have to avoid theirs while setting mine."

 

There was nothing up there that Mat could make out beyond an occasional scattering of brush and now and then a stunted tree. Aviendha frowned at the heights, then at Rand, adjusting her shawl. "Snares?" Mat said. Light, let him give me an answer that isn't crazy. "Who's setting snares?"

 

For a moment Rand looked at him as if he did not understand the question. The peddlers' wagons were starting off with an escort of Maidens loping alongside, turning to follow the Jindo as they trotted past, mirrored by the Shaido. More Maidens sped ahead to scout. Only the Aiel around Rand stood still, though the Wise Ones' party dawdled and watched, and from Egwene's gestures, Mat thought she wanted to come check on them.

 

"You can't see it, or feel it," Rand said finally. Leaning a little toward Mat, he whispered loudly, as though pretending. "We ride with evil now, Mat. Watch yourself." He wore that twisted grin again, as he watched the wagons lumber by.

 

"You think this Kadere is evil?"

 

"A dangerous man, Mat – the eyes always give it away – yet who can say? But what cause have I to worry, with Moiraine and the Wise Ones watching out for me? And we mustn't forget Lanfear. Has any man ever been under so many watchful eyes?"

 

Abruptly Rand straightened in his saddle. "It has begun," be said quietly. "Wish that I have your luck, Mat. It has begun, and there is no turning back, now, however the blade falls." Nodding to himself, he started his dapple after Rhuarc, Aviendha trotting alongside, the hundred Jindo following.

 

Mat was glad enough to follow too. Better than being left there, certainly. The sun burned high in a stark blue sky. There was a lot of traveling yet to be done before sunset. It had begun? What did he mean, it had begun? It had begun in Rhuidean; or better, in Emond's Field on Winternight a year gone. "Riding with evil" and "no turning back"? And Lanfear? Rand was walking the razor's edge, now. No doubt about it. There had to be a way out of the Waste before it was too late. From time to time Mat studied the peddlers' wagons. Before it was too late. If it was not already.

 

Mat took this as evidence that Rand was going crazy. In a way, it was; Rand should have realized he was acting very differently, while Mat was pretty much the same. Egwene is another good one for showing the crazy side of Rand; RJ used Egwene, Mat and Perrin to show the changes in Rand more than even Nynaeve, since they knew him much better than Nynaeve did. But Rand's not as crazy as Mat thinks, here. The reader is privy to that, and often goes too far in assuming that, just because Rand knows things Mat does not, he's not really going crazy. He is.

 

At the end of TSR, Rand captures Asmodean, does it his way, and Lanfear thinks it's the kind of plan Lews Therin would have come up with. The Lews Therin arc in TSR is therefore a very subtle one. We're clued in early in the book what's going on, but it's too easy to see it how Rand sees it, and not to look any further for important distinctions.

 

In Rand's first chapter of TFOH (chapter 2), we get three distinct memories in that one chapter, the first blatant Lews Therin memories since TSR 9. By then, Rand has already begun to change, but when he realizes where those memories are coming from in TFOH 6 (yet another meeting with Lanfear), that's when he really starts going crazy. Because while Rand was able to accept his responsibilities as Dragon Reborn, accepting that he was really Lews Therin reborn was a little much for him. And Rand goes through a great deal of effort to convince himself that it's not true. Did the taint facilitate the 'construction' of Lews Therin's voice? You betcha. But Rand had his own motives to disassociate himself from those memories. He couldn't fight them completely, but he could at the very least associate the death of Ilyena (and the responsibility for it) exclusively with the madman in his head.

[Terez]

But the reasons listed so far do not have it being Mat's future, but rather his past

 

Except that Min had the viewing before Mat remembered anything. And the Seanchan hold the banner.

[thisguy]

Whether you're right or not, thank you. It's obvious you put some thought into this and have done a good job, imo.

 

Do you know what Robert Jordan had to say on the subject?