Personal opinions of tWoT series. *warning - highly negative*

[scott_swampy]

Most major monarchs (such as Andor) and councils (such as Far Madding) are ruled by women,

Actually, it's pretty even. Arad Doman, Tear, Illian, Amadicia, two of the Borderland nations and Cairhien, for example, are all in the hands of male rulers (or mostly male) as of the start of the series.

Actually, Arad Domain doesn't count. It's rule by a puppet (male) King who is in fact ruled by the Council of Merchants, most if not all are implied to be women.

Actually, Arad Doman does count. While the bulk of the Council of Merchants is female, the king is not a puppet. He is, in point of fact, a near absolute ruler. The Council elects the king, but I don't know of any other powers they have.

Amadicia, once again, puppet (male) King who is in fact controlled by (male) White Cloaks -- this just shows the failure of real political control, and the rise of tyranny.

It's still run by a man, though. Which was what I said.

Tear and Illian I will concede. But I still hold that most rulers and power wielders are in fact women.

And would you care to back it up with some facts? I think that taking the continent as a whole, women might have the edge, but not by as much as many seem to think.

 

Further, the lack of good or interesting female characters makes you root for Rand!

I don't agree that there is such a lack. There is a flawed power dynamic in the series, that does need to be fixed, but it is not "women in charge", it's "women and men not working together".

I don't agree either. It's the very power dynamic of women in charge that led to most of this mess.

But it is not women in charge, as I said previously. Men are in power in many places across the continent. The big problem is the AS, and their problem is one that arises from a lack of competition. They have stagnated. A purely male organistation would do the same thing, or a mixed one.

 

This is a very well thought out argument against WoT.

No, it isn't.

Want to actually write out why instead of just relying on a 3 word sentence?

That was what the bulk of my post was about, you know. His opinion of Caduane's character, his belief that everyone should get together overnight because the Source was Cleansed, AS continuing to manipulate, his opinion of the women characters, just a few of the points I addressed. I didn't do it after that three word sentence because I had already done it. One might feel almost insulted at the way you had just disregarded my own opinion that you disagreed with. WoT does have flaws, but the Op didn't do a good job of addressing them. "I didn't like it" is hardly great criticism.

 

I think Mr Ares has put it very politely. I'm trying to be polite too, but I feel I haven't succeeded. Well, whatever.

I find that even when I try to be polite, people still think I'm being rude, so just say what you want, how you want, and let others take it as they will.

 

The absence of female characters who are respectful and intelligent isn't realistic. There are some, clearly, but I would like to think that in real life, most women aren't so extremely prejudiced and controlling.

The primary female protagonists, those who get the most screen time, are somewhat limited in their walks of life - AS taking most of those spots, for example. And while the organistation as a whole receives much deserving criticism, there are many individuals who show themselves to be worthy of respect. Among them, Verin, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Pevara. Do none of them fit your description? Then maybe some of the others do. Or non-AS, such as the Wise Ones, or Min, Setalle Anan. People frequently are disrespectful and prejudiced, and people in positions of power are often controlling and manipulative, because they want to maintain their power.

 

Moggy, who we have been told is the weakest channeler of The Forsaken, hence the nickname ''Spider''

Again, we have never been told that. Her nickname of Spider comes from her habit of hiding, and striking from the shadows at unsuspecting prey. She takes easy targets. She is a coward, but that's nothing to do with her strength in the Power.

We later learn it is because she is - except for Moggy - the weakest Forsaken Channeler.

We never earn any such thing. You've got to stop saying this if you can't back it up.

 

Unfortuantely, for Team Light, only Alivia realizes this when she notes that Cyndane has an An'greal

Other way round. Cyndane notes Alivia has an angreal. Alivia has never had a POV.

which is the only way Cyndane can even compare to Channeling as strongly as She could when she was Lanfear.

WH and PoD both make clear that although Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, she is still a very strong and very capable channeler in her own right. Her being stronger than Graendal, and Graendal's own strength being greater than most men, is explicitly stated.

 

WH makes it clear that Cyndane is far far weaker than The Daughter of The Night was...

No it doesn't.

the only reason Alivia was confused was, like I said above, when I quoted WH, was because Cyndane had an An'greal and it confused Alivia.

No, Alivia had the angreal, not Cyndane. It's like our last conversation bout this never happened. I try to help people on here with my enormous knowledge, but to have it ignored so does not a happy Mr Ares make.

 

LMAO!!!!! I have just decided i love you! LMAO!!!

 

Although i think BS confirmed that Messana is the second weak of, at least, the female forsaken. Some one asked him if Nynaeve was stronger than Messana, and he said that he was preaty sure she would be and he implied that only Moggy was weaker amongst female forsaken. But don't quote me, i could be wrong, it has happened before.

 

But as i said, LMAO.

[Zidel333]

which is the only way Cyndane can even compare to Channeling as strongly as She could when she was Lanfear.

WH and PoD both make clear that although Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, she is still a very strong and very capable channeler in her own right. Her being stronger than Graendal, and Graendal's own strength being greater than most men, is explicitly stated.

 

WH makes it clear that Cyndane is far far weaker than The Daughter of The Night was...

No it doesn't.

 

I really don't want to start this discussion up again because it seems like we will just antagonize each other again. But, I must do so because you are wrong on a point where no discussion can or should be made. Cyndane is FAR weaker then Lanfear, this is made quite explicit in chapters 35 of WH "[Alivia] was stronger then she have been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no women could be stonger". There is also some other comments, such as Demandred's thought in chapter 13 of WH: "At first [Demandred] he had thought [Cyndane] was Lanfear reincarnated...He had been sure until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear. Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age."  This is also argued at the WoTFAQ: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html

 

That Cyndane is Lanfear is beyond question (ch 35 WH), but why is it Cyndane is so much weaker? There have been several theories as to why including that she was stilled when going through the Twisted Red Door frame or during her time held by the *Finn, and then Healed. Another promising theory is that Lanfear is always described wearing her distinctive silver moon jewelry and belt. These may be in fact an angreal, as Lanfear was widely known to as one of the strongest channelers of the end of AoL, and as strong as a woman could be without aid. If they were terangreal, this may explain also how Lanfear miraculously survived the explosion after The Bore was opened, which managed to destroy the Collam Daan. Assuming this, it would make sense that Cyndane would be considerably weaker.

 

In light of the comparison to Graendal, there's not much support for this anyway because it is likely that Graendal had access to *greal (her simple gold ring) which makes the comparison worthless. Further, can you even trust Mesaana?

 

[csarmi]

Jeez!

 

First,

 

He had been sure until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear

 

Now what do we miss here? A word with four letters, that starts with an 'm' and ends with 'uch'.

 

Second,

 

[Alivia] was stronger then she have been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no women could be stonger

 

This implies that he strength was lowered, nothing more. Well, it is indirectly implied that she cannot be much weaker because then she would be destroyed by Alivia for sure.

 

Third, BS himself confirmed that Cyndane is only a little weaker than Lanfear was. I seem to recall that Cyndane is still more powerful than Graendal, actually.

It's hard to stand back when someone is trying to spread misinformation and state it as a fact...

 

[Kadere]

Cyndane is FAR weaker then Lanfear, this is made quite explicit in chapters 35 of WH "[Alivia] was stronger then she have been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no women could be stonger".

 

As Mr Ares just explained, you must have skipped it, and the book explain, Alivia has an an'greal which makes her stronger than Lanfear was when she was at her full power. Lanfear does not recognize the an'greal or the fact that Alivia has one, and so believes her to be stronger then she was when she was Lanfear. Alivia, without an an'greal, is NOT as strong as Lanfear, and there's no proof she would be as strong as Cyndane.

 

There is also some other comments, such as Demandred's thought in chapter 13 of WH: "At first [Demandred] he had thought [Cyndane] was Lanfear reincarnated...He had been sure until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear. Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age."  This is also argued at the WoTFAQ: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html

 

This doesn't state that Cyndane is the weakest Forsaken, or that she's that dramatically weaker than Lanfear. Only that she's weaker than Lanfear was.

 

Another promising theory is that Lanfear is always described wearing her distinctive silver moon jewelry and belt. These may be in fact an angreal, as Lanfear was widely known to as one of the strongest channelers of the end of AoL, and as strong as a woman could be without aid. If they were terangreal, this may explain also how Lanfear miraculously survived the explosion after The Bore was opened, which managed to destroy the Collam Daan. Assuming this, it would make sense that Cyndane would be considerably weaker.

 

Ok, hold on. Everything you just said is a huge assumption without any facts to back it up, and no one, besides you and Fisher King, has ever believed this. 1) There is no proof that her jewelry were an'greal. 2) Lanfear was the strongest female Forsaken naturally, this is specifically stated in the books and the BWB. 3) First you say the jewelry set were an'greal then you say they're ter'angreal, you have no proof of either. 4) You have no proof that Lanfear was wearing these things during the time of the drilling. 5) Lanfear was not the only survivor of the drilling, lots of the Aes Sedai who were there lived. 6) Your last assumption, and really this whole theory that you've concocted with no evidence whatsoever or even reason to have this theory in the first place, can't be proven true unless Cyndane had an'greal. Your theory is that Lanfear was only strong because she had an'greal which she didn't wear all the time, only when she wanted to look grand, and yet fooled everyone into thinking she was actually very strong because they didn't know they were an'greal. Now, reborn, she's weaker because she has no an'greal, which doesn't mean she's weaker naturally. Your own theory would be then that Cyndane is the same strength as Lanfear naturally, and therefore only needs some an'greal to be strong again. So no we can not, and should not, assume any of this since all the actual evidence proves it wrong.

 

In light of the comparison to Graendal, there's not much support for this anyway because it is likely that Graendal had access to *greal (her simple gold ring) which makes the comparison worthless. Further, can you even trust Mesaana?

 

Graendal compares herself in her own PoV to Cyndane and realizes that naturally, without an'greal, she is weaker than Cyndane. So Graendal wearing an'greal, or having a stash of an'greal doesn't matter, as she compares herself to Cyndane naturally.

[The Fisher King]

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no? ;)

 

Mr Ares,

 

I honestly don't know why you ask me to stop saying certain things. Please hear me out.

 

I understand that there has not been any neon signs posted in the books saying ''THIS IS PROOF/EVIDENCE THAT SO AND SO MEANS SO AND SO'' lol...but, do you KNOW what ''Context Clues'' are? Taking 2 and then also taking another 2 and figuring youve got 4? How about being able to make accurate inferences based on certain implications?

 

To me, speculation about Moggy, Messana, Cyndane and Lanfear's Belt is the EXACT same as the masses here that have made their speculations that Noal is Jain, Moridin is Ishamael etc...these are things that have NOT been ''Evidenced'' yet in the books, but we all KNOW, you know???

 

 

Its the same thing as being able to correctly infer, based on what is shown and implied (even though not spelled out) in the texts, that Setalle was an Aes Sedai, Moridin was guy in SL, Noal is Jain, Moridin is Ishamael etc etc.

 

Same thing, my man.

 

Oh, last thing on Channeling Power of the gals among the chosen. You defend their supposed strength level so much that it seems like you are really saying you'd rather have Messana and Moggy in a OP Fight than Rhavin, Moridin and Demandred.

 

You saying that just doesn't make sense.

 

As I said to Vulgir in another thread:

 

Ok, Vulgir...

 

The next time you say something that has not been spelled out with 100% certified confirmation within the text or by sworn word of Jordan or Sanderson, I can just say you make stuff up and don't provide evidence??? Cool. Thats a deal.

 

So please don't ever say that you feel that Moridin is Ishmael, Noal is Jain, Moridin was The Guy in book 6 in Shadar Logoth, etc etc - that sorta thing...I can get on you about stating things that we haven't been given ''Evidence'' for???

 

Do you see my point man? My point is, with what I just said in the above 2 paragraphs and your taking me to task for saying things I don't have evidence for, well...we're talking about the saaaaaaame thing, brother, the saaaaaame thing. lol.

 

 

Fish

 

 

P.S. - I also said: ''Oh, and please don't say to me its different because in THOSE cases we have been given plenty of *Reason* to make those conclusions...because, I have read the books alot too and I feel that the things I say we have been given lots of reason enough to believe the things I say I believe too - make sense?

 

 

[Vulgir]

 

I understand that there has not been any neon signs posted in the books saying ''THIS IS PROOF/EVIDENCE THAT SO AND SO MEANS SO AND SO'' lol...but, do you KNOW what ''Context Clues'' are? Taking 2 and then also taking another 2 and figuring youve got 4? How about being able to make accurate inferences based on certain implications?

 

 

Then state them. Your arguements always go the same.

 

I think this (insert made up fact)

No i really think this (completely wrong fact)

No look Ishy and MOrridin are the same even though the text doesnt say it, so i must be right.

 

You take 0 and 0 and get Something completely wrong.

 

Use evidence in the text, why you think this based on what, a line a quote anything other than your thoughts, cause they are wrong

[The Fisher King]

I give my opinions - this is a DISCUSSION Board (last I checked) - Not a Debate Board.

 

I like your posts Vulgir, I really do, Im not just saying this, but I honestly don't get thi shang-up of yours with ''quotes/evidence/in-text proof.''

 

So, to be fair, since you are always asking for Quotes - can you provide me with one single quote of me ever giving an opinion and saying ''This is a FACT.'' ??

 

I never have. Am I not alllowed to give my opinion?

 

Ok. You don't have the right to think that Noal is Jain.

 

Valid comparison? Of course it is.

 

Also, you are saying that you think Moggy and Messana are among the STRONGEST Channelers of The Chosen. I just can't get behind that. I'm sorry. If it turns out you are right, I give you my word I will apologize.

 

You also imply that you do not think there is ANY chance in the world that Lanfear's Belt MIGHT be just possibly be an An'greal.

 

Do you not see why some think it might be.

 

 

I like you, but you confuse the HECK out of me.

 

 

Fish

[Zidel333]

So, I'm done with this topic. Not because it isn't worthy of further discussion or highly interesting, but rather the insipid infighting and stubbornness of users. They can't get past their own opinions and read other ideas with an open mind, instead bad mouthing the others. Surely we are all better then this. Surely we can aspire to be open to the realm of new ideas without attacks. Surely we can agree that the Wheel of Time and it's fandom deserve better than such moronic bickering.

 

But these recent postings prove otherwise.

 

I first joined Dragonmount about 9 years ago under a different screen name, and only returned because of TGS. 9 years ago DM was never this bad. Perhaps I was wrong to join again.

[The Fisher King]

Im not going to comment about those things in this topic anymore either...its not my thread so i don't want to further hijack it...i also don't like fighting with people, so, i don't want to poss off Ares or Vulgir anymore so im done.

 

I will just close with something I posted above...that when it comes to posters demanding ''proof/in-text evidence/quotes'' etc to back up a claim, all I can say is, as I said above:

 

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no?

 

 

Fish

[unassigned]

Cadsuane holding up a shield over the hilltop...Even with an angreal her strength should have been insignificant in the face of the other Forsaken.

 

The Forsaken have no angreals themselves. Angreals multiply strength greatly. She should be much stronger than them.

 

The way I understand angreal as was explained by Elayne when she was sorting through the cache of angreal and ter'angreal found in Ebou Dar along with the Bowl of the Winds is that its an aid which allows you to hold an extra proportion of the Power. One angreal might allow you to hold more of the One Power than another angreal but it would depend on the persons original strength in the Power. As Elayne stated about one of those angreal; that with it Nynaeve could hold more of the Power than she herself could with the same angreal.

 

So drawing through an angreal wouldn't necessarily give you all the Power that that particular angreal could provide or hold.

 

As is stated, both Elayne and Egwene would be stronger than Cadsuane in the Power so regardless of the angreal she is holding my conclusion is her strength is insignificant in this scenario.

 

I suppose it could be said that she has a very powerful angreal indeed. But based upon everything we have seen of angreal in tWot so far they don't grant immensely improved strength in the Power like sa'angreal (which you need to be very powerful in the Power indeed when wielding it outside a circle). More of a ratio factor based on personal strength. And if she did have such an angreal...since the fact was conveniently omitted I tend to see the flaw in the scene rather than what I want to see.

[csarmi]

Yay for FK and zidel vowing to stop spreading their nonsense in this topic!

 

Now back to topic.

I get the idea that angreals multiply, as well. I think some smart guys with a lot of free time have concluded that they multiply by a lot. The lowest I've seen were over 2.5 or something. They also made lists which - in my opinion - seem somewhat made-up for me, but most seem to agree that not even Rand is more than 2.5 times powerful than Cadsuane.

 

What I get from what I've read so far is that Cadsuane should be able to hold Rand (without angreals and such) himself. Why would her strength be negligible?

 

Note that we know Cadsuane is the strongest AS before the coming of the supergirls.

[Vulgir]

I think theres a quote from RJ or BS that states Angreals dont multiplye but simply add on.

 

You also imply that you do not think there is ANY chance in the world that Lanfear's Belt MIGHT be just possibly be an An'greal.

 

 

No theres nothing to say that it is.

 

Well if thats possible then Rand probably has 16 toes. And of course Matt has A white cloak thats a 2nd cousin. Also Aiel dont eat every 3rd day to stay tough. And you cannot forget the Masma was heavily infulenced by Fain.

 

I could say anything. Like you do. It would be wrong but i could say it. There nothing to suggest it, theres no point to think it, but its probably true.

[The Fisher King]

Csarmi...you have not proven any of your points.

 

When you make claims, see, you are obligated to back it up. You do not do so.

 

See, you claim, or have at least implied (and not politely, lol) that you DISagree with the following:

 

1 Lanfear's Belt is an An'greal.

 

2 Moggy and Messana are The Weakest of The Chosen.

 

3 Cyndane is far weaker than Lanfear.

 

Ok. I think it cool that you think those things. BUT. You have not PROVEN, these things...I think whats happpening here is a misunderstaning or forgetting of who has the onus, or the Burden of Proof, on them in a Traditional Debate. Don't sweat that dude, my memory bites too.

 

So, until YOU prove that Lanfear's Belt is DEFINITELY *Not* an An'greal, you can't rightfully engage the opposite side of someone who believes it IS.

 

The onus, or Burden of Proof - in a Traditional Debate - is on YOU (or Ares etc) to prove unequivocably that Lanfear's Belt is NOT an An'greal.

 

You see?

 

Try ''Proper Rules of Traditonal Debate'' - I bet it'd be a Good Read lol ;)

 

 

Fish

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

3 Cyndane is far weaker than Lanfear.

 

I'm going to point out here that while I don't completely disagree with it, I believe that the claim is unsupported by the books. Cyndane is weaker, yes, but there's nothing in the books to suggest any substantial quanity. The bars for comparison are Graendal and Lanfear - Graendal being slightly less powerful than Cyndane, but still being of high level of power rare for the AoL. If Lanfear was the strongest of the AoL as suggested by Lanfear (and assuming she's not being overly proud)and there's no comparison made between Graendal/Lanfear, then there's no scale to show that Cyndane is substantially weaker than Lanfear. Sure, she's weaker, but FAR weaker? Unsupported.

[The Fisher King]

Eht Slat Meit (and anyone).

 

Here is my perception of what seems to be the CURRENT Standing of Team Jordan on this Issue:

 

Cynande is indeed significantly weaker than when she was Lanfear. HOWEVER, she is NOT quite AS much weaker as seemed to be the common belief. ... Cyndane is stronger than Graendal. Granedal is an EXTREMELY Powerful Channeler, but, back in the day, Gran was still weaker than Lanfear ... Thus, Graendal is a Very Powerful Channeler...Cynande is a Very Very Powerful Channeler and Lanfear was like totally whack crazy ownage powerful.

 

I want to be clear: I am not saying this is  Team Jordan's stance, Im saying this is how I, as in ME, understand what they are trying to say.

 

Now, 2 things on this that I find very interesting and perplexing:

 

1 This is one of the MAIN reasons that inspires me to believe that Lanfear's Belt was an An'greal...I understand that ALL Forsaken are Super Strong Channelers...but...it just seems to me that SUCH a point is made out of how Crazily Powerful Lanfear was (even compared to other strong Female Forsaken - Like Cyndane and Grandeal)that susppecting that she had had an An'greal is very reasonable to speculate about. Now, her Belt often had special attention called to it. Now, granted, while Jordan was characteristically very descriptive, the Belt just seemed above and beyond, even for his style.

 

And, we have a Track Record on this area to look at: Anytime Jordan called attention consistently to a wardrobe piece/jewelry etc it usually turned out to be a Magic Deal of some sort. I can, as examples, list Mat's Medallion and Cadsuane Sedai's Hairpiece among many, many other obvious examples.

 

 

2 It seems to me that  there hasbeen a bit of a recent Retconn/Rewrite/Revision/Backtracking here by the living members of Team Jordan...I believe this because: Brandon Sanderson said in one of the EXCELLENT and APPRECIATED Storm Leader Reports that it had also been HIS (the new author of the series lol) understanding that Cyndane was indeed waaaay waaaay weaker than Lanfear and not just way weaker, but that he had provided some notes by  Team Jordan Ace Member Maria that Mr Jordan himself had noted that this was actually NOT the case meaning that Mr Sanderson had to readjust his thinking on the matter.

 

I find this confusing.

 

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

Fish

[Eht Slat Meit]

2 It seems to me that  there hasbeen a bit of a recent Retconn/Rewrite/Revision/Backtracking here by the living members of Team Jordan...I believe this because: Brandon Sanderson said in one of the EXCELLENT and APPRECIATED Storm Leader Reports that it had also been HIS (the new author of the series lol) understanding that Cyndane was indeed waaaay waaaay weaker than Lanfear and not just way weaker, but that he had provided some notes by  Team Jordan Ace Member Maria that Mr Jordan himself had noted that this was actually NOT the case meaning that Mr Sanderson had to readjust his thinking on the matter.

 

I find this confusing.

 

It's not that confusing to me, but mainly because I consider this to be little more than blue-sky hypothesizing on the internet. In practical usage, that being the writing of the books themselves, brute power comparisons have little value other than a> to feed the fanbase interest in who's stronger than who and b> specific fights where one character is placed head to head with another. That being the case, while Jordan may have a good idea of who rates exactly where on the scale of least-to-greatest, niggly specifics like exactly how exact the difference are, aren't something he'd spend much time working out. Thus, you might have notes from him indicating where the characters stand on the power scale, and leave the readers to decide the rest for themselves.

[RUSH]

In any of the numerous examples in the books of one character comparing their strength with another, we've never encountered a single example where they included the strength of an angreal currently in their possession in the comparison, unless explicitly stated, so this claim is unsubstantiated.  In other words, they make their comparisons raw.  The added strength of angreal is a bonus, and is not included in the base figure.

 

Female channelers can sense one another's strength, and it's apparently quite accurate.  In addition, they all seem to have a perfect memory for past strength comparisons.  They cannot sense the other woman's inherent strength plus that of any angreal she may or may not have on her person, unless the angreal is currently in use.

 

If Graendal can definitely state that Cyndane is more powerful than she, but is less powerful than Lanfear, and we know that Graendal herself is a very powerful channeler, that tells us the following:

 

- Cyndane is really powerful

- Lanfear was really really powerful

- Graendal's assessment of power is specific and precise enough for her to be sure, despite the obvious impossibility of having both Cyndane and Lanfear there to compare

 

Cyndane/Lanfear makes the comment that no woman could be stronger than she was (before the Finn held her).  Why would she make such a claim?  How does she know that no woman could be stronger than herself?  Was she really at the maximum power level for a woman, or was this just her ego talking?  She was a prominent researcher in the AOL, so it's entirely possible that she happened to be as strong as a woman can be, and knew it for a fact, but we have no further information about this. 

 

Regardless, the very fact that Graendal admits that Cyndane is stronger tells us that the whole "Cyndane is far weaker than Lanfear" is wrong, unless Lanfear was immensely stronger than Graendal, which has never been stated or demonstrated.

 

Lanfear's belt being a *greal?  Sure, why not.  Anything is possible.  But nobody, including Lanfear, has ever even hinted that her belt is anything other than a belt.  The item being mentioned, especially by "one dress per paragraph" Jordan, isn't proof of anything.

 

As far as angreals go, Brandon said something about them being additive, rather than multiplicative.  So to totally make up numbers, a weak angreal could be +10 power, and maybe the Choeden Kal was +100,000 or something crazy like that.  While you could achieve the same results with the right multiplier, the actual in-use descriptions seem more consistent with them being additive, Moiraine's description notwithstanding.

[blanklook]

Just wanted to add my viewpoint of the series...

 

I love the world that RJ created, but I absolutely hate all of his characters for one simple reason, he really only has two of them, well, at least for the hero point of views. He has his male character, who means well but is essentially an idiot, does not understand women, CANNOT understand women regardless of any change in his own relationships or maturity, and is, of course, incapable of harming women without the greatest of provocations (this despite the fact that in many parts of the world women regularly participate in fighting.) Rand, Perrin, and Mat all fit into this archetype.

 

Its fine for 3 farmboys from Edmon's Field, but seriously after the first couple of books the characters should develop beyond this. Women fall into the same type of character with a few tweaks, but if you've read past the first 3 books you get the point.

 

Every single person I know who has read these books brings this problem up without any prompting from me when I ask their opinion. The most interesting people are the ones who AREN'T the heros, because the non heros don't exist in these rather one dimensional, predictable character types.

 

 

Everyone says the same thing, RJ strung the story out to long. I don't think that's true. The root of the problem was the RJ never really developed his characters past their original states (sorry Rand bitching about getting harder every other line doesn't count.) Good books are about CHARACTER development, not just STORY development.

 

Really TGS has been my favorite book because we finally get to see some character change that doesn't take 5 books to get through.

[Vulgir]

Eht Slat Meit (and anyone).

 

Here is my perception of what seems to be the CURRENT Standing of Team Jordan on this Issue:

 

Cynande is indeed significantly weaker than when she was Lanfear. HOWEVER, she is NOT quite AS much weaker as seemed to be the common belief. ... Cyndane is stronger than Graendal. Granedal is an EXTREMELY Powerful Channeler, but, back in the day, Gran was still weaker than Lanfear ... Thus, Graendal is a Very Powerful Channeler...Cynande is a Very Very Powerful Channeler and Lanfear was like totally whack crazy ownage powerful.

 

I want to be clear: I am not saying this is  Team Jordan's stance, Im saying this is how I, as in ME, understand what they are trying to say.

 

Now, 2 things on this that I find very interesting and perplexing:

 

1 This is one of the MAIN reasons that inspires me to believe that Lanfear's Belt was an An'greal...I understand that ALL Forsaken are Super Strong Channelers...but...it just seems to me that SUCH a point is made out of how Crazily Powerful Lanfear was (even compared to other strong Female Forsaken - Like Cyndane and Grandeal)that susppecting that she had had an An'greal is very reasonable to speculate about. Now, her Belt often had special attention called to it. Now, granted, while Jordan was characteristically very descriptive, the Belt just seemed above and beyond, even for his style.

 

 

Finally, something from you.

 

This is pure speculation man. Just because an item is described doesnt make it important, Rands Belt buckle, Avienda's bracelt, they are items that are described in detail, but not given any reason to think they are of the power.

 

Also, At the Docks when Lanfear fights Rand, she uses Another Angreal, why at this point would it not give us information that she actually uses 2 Angreal.

 

At least by stating what u did u can give merrit to your thoughts. Do you see what i mean?

[Impressive Bosom]

Without responding in as exacting detail as my fellow posters, I will say this: I find it hard to believe that the esteemed Mr. Jordan couldn't condense the relevant aspects of books 7-9, especially considering he originally intended books 12-14 to be a single volume. I think it would have been better arranged the other way (12 volume set, books 7-9 condensed into 1, books 12-14 written in full as they will be now).

 

Having said that, its pretty hard to second guess RJ, and I may be in the minority, but I would have been happy reading 20 volumes or more if he had been permitted top stay and write to his heart's content.

[The Fisher King]

Impressive Bosom (or so she says ;)), I don't know about how many ''Books'' as a whole, I would say that the series could do without and not ''lose anything'' ... But ... It is my opinion, and I have a little experience here, that EASILY about 2,000 words between Books 1 - 10 could have been omitted without shortchanging the patient, descriptive style in the least. I truly believe that.

 

Vulgir...You Say: Also, At the Docks when Lanfear fights Rand, she uses Another Angreal, why at this point would it not give us information that she actually uses 2 Angreal.

 

Great Point.

 

 

Fish

[csarmi]

I'm still in polite mode so you get a last reply from me.

 

1 Lanfear's Belt is an An'greal.

 

Lanfear's WHAT? I don't even know what you're talking about. It'd be irrelevant if I did, for two reasons:

1) You would have to prove that her whatever - belt? was that the word? - is an angreal yourself.

2) Lanfear's dead. We never even talked about her.

 

2 Moggy and Messana are The Weakest of The Chosen.

 

I claimed there is no proof of them being so. They might be. Or not. BTW, who is Messana?

 

3 Cyndane is far weaker than Lanfear.

 

Well Cyndane is more powerful than Graendal. Isn't that proof enough? Plus Brandon Sanderson claimed it himself. What else do you need?

 

And with that: ignore on.

[The Fisher King]

''And with that: ignore on.''

 

Excellent. Best I'd you've had yet ;)

 

 

Fish

[mb]

who is Messana?

I take the person means Mesaana.

If you are asking about her alias, books 1 through 11 do not tell.

 

[Mr Ares]

No, Alivia had the angreal, not Cyndane. It's like our last conversation bout this never happened. I try to help people on here with my enormous knowledge, but to have it ignored so does not a happy Mr Ares make.

LMAO!!!!! I have just decided i love you! LMAO!!!

 

Although i think BS confirmed that Messana is the second weak of, at least, the female forsaken. Some one asked him if Nynaeve was stronger than Messana, and he said that he was preaty sure she would be and he implied that only Moggy was weaker amongst female forsaken. But don't quote me, i could be wrong, it has happened before.

 

But as i said, LMAO.

Just decided? What took you so long?

 

I really don't want to start this discussion up again because it seems like we will just antagonize each other again. But, I must do so because you are wrong on a point where no discussion can or should be made. Cyndane is FAR weaker then Lanfear, this is made quite explicit in chapters 35 of WH "[Alivia] was stronger then she have been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no women could be stonger". There is also some other comments, such as Demandred's thought in chapter 13 of WH: "At first [Demandred] he had thought [Cyndane] was Lanfear reincarnated...He had been sure until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear. Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age."  This is also argued at the WoTFAQ: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html

You realize you need evidence of her being far weaker? That she is weaker has already been admitted, it is not in dispute. We are told she stands between lanfear and Graendal (who was herself stronger than most). Alivia was stronger due to having an angreal, but you have only shown that she is weaker, not far weaker.

 

That Cyndane is Lanfear is beyond question (ch 35 WH), but why is it Cyndane is so much weaker? There have been several theories as to why including that she was stilled when going through the Twisted Red Door frame or during her time held by the *Finn, and then Healed. Another promising theory is that Lanfear is always described wearing her distinctive silver moon jewelry and belt. These may be in fact an angreal, as Lanfear was widely known to as one of the strongest channelers of the end of AoL, and as strong as a woman could be without aid.

The burnt out/Healed theory is the one I think is most likely, but the angreal one is not promising. Nor even possible. Her having an angreal would only make her seem stronger than her actual strength if she was actually drawing through it. That would mean that every time she met with other Chosen, she did so while drawing saidar through an angreal. Every damn time. That's the sort of think that would be noticed and commented upon. If she just had an angreal but wasn't drawing, then she would appear as her maximum strength, not her strength plus what the angreal would give her.

If they were terangreal, this may explain also how Lanfear miraculously survived the explosion after The Bore was opened, which managed to destroy the Collam Daan.

We know Beidomon survived as well. People survive explosions. It happens. Doesn't require magic.

 

In light of the comparison to Graendal, there's not much support for this anyway because it is likely that Graendal had access to *greal (her simple gold ring) which makes the comparison worthless.

Graendal herself makes the comparison, and her angreal wouldn't change her strength unless she was using it. So if Graendal is saying Cyndane is stronger than her, she was. We have evidence of a drop, but not of a massive drop.

 

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no? ;)

I can say the same thing just as easily: I don't speak Russian, but I know such a language exists, I know that tomorrow, the USA will not have a revolution and have the Commies in charge, and I know that, despite it never being stated explicitly in the text, the guy watching Sammael and Graendal is Moridin. That doesn't mean that anything and everything I say thus carries an equal weight of truth with those things. I could say that I also know that tomorrow, Putin will get bored and fly over to Britian to vist me, and we'll get drunk on vodka and visit a brothel. That just means that when tomorrow rolls around, Putin will not be put up in my spare room, drinking my booze, and I'm very disappointed. I know for a fact that Mazrim Taim is Demandred, I just have a feeling. It must be true. The point is, you don't need a blunt statement of fact, that's not the only thing that can count as evidence. We are given clues that point towards Moridin being the guy watching Sammael and Graendal, and him being in Shadar Logoth, we can deduce it from those clues. We still have evidence, in the books, a case that can be written out, not just blind faith (in fact, I provided the link to the case for this previously). You have never been to Miami, but if you look at a map of Florida, it will be on it, it probably has a website, you may have met people from Miami, or who have been there. While I can't speak Russian, I know and have known Russian speakers. That the US won't declare war on Canada ot be overthrown by the Communists is likely given the know facts about the relevant parties. These things don't tend to come up from absolutely nowhere. Even if you don't have Obama giving an address every morning saying " we won't decalre war on Canada today", you can still deduce that it won't happen fom other evidence. There is evidence to support Tywin's complicity in the Red Wedding, and there is evidence to support China producing tea. That doesn't mean we take all these things purely on blind faith. There is evidence to support these conclusions. There was evidence to support Taimandred as well, until further evidence proved it impossible. Sometimes people interpret the evidence wrong. Sometimes there is just no evidence. You continually claim it's there - why else would it be common sense? - but you never provide when challenged. Cyndane being very weak, far weake than lanfear, is not only unsupported, it is flatly contradicted by the text. So how is it common sense? Why is it common sense to assume Moghedien is the weakest Chosen? There must be a reason, surely?

 

I honestly don't know why you ask me to stop saying certain things.

You have no evidence. I have told you this, but you keep saying it. I have asked you to provide the evidence - I know a lot about this series, but not everything, so if I've missed it, please provide and I can take it into consideration - but you don't. This isn't good debate. This isn't good for the forum. You thinking something is common sense doesn't make it so.

 

I understand that there has not been any neon signs posted in the books saying ''THIS IS PROOF/EVIDENCE THAT SO AND SO MEANS SO AND SO'' lol...but, do you KNOW what ''Context Clues'' are? Taking 2 and then also taking another 2 and figuring youve got 4? How about being able to make accurate inferences based on certain implications?

So provide the clues. In maths exams they ask you to show your working. You can get marks for the method as well as the result. What are the implications we should be making inferences from? All you are doing is giving us a four without telling us what you were adding up. Or maybe you were multiplying, or dividing? Are you taking certain clues and going somewhere different with them? Because all we see is where you are, not how you got there. And I have asked, several times, how you got there, but you will not provide a satisfactory answer. Talking about contexxt clues isn't enough - what context clues were you using?

 

To me, speculation about Moggy, Messana, Cyndane and Lanfear's Belt is the EXACT same as the masses here that have made their speculations that Noal is Jain, Moridin is Ishamael etc...these are things that have NOT been ''Evidenced'' yet in the books, but we all KNOW, you know???

But those things you list, they do have evidence. We don't have cast iron proof that Noal is Jain, but we have grounds to suspect it. We may be wrong, but we can show people why we got there. We don't have Moridin going around wearing a t-shirt saying "I used to be Ishamael", but we still have evidence. Again, if people disagree, we can show them how we reached that conclusion. Despite asking, you won't tell me how you got to where you are. What makes you think these things? What are the clues, the evidence? There must be something, surely? Else, how could it be so obvious to you, how could you be so insistent on something you know to be unsupported?

 

Its the same thing as being able to correctly infer, based on what is shown and implied (even though not spelled out) in the texts, that Setalle was an Aes Sedai, Moridin was guy in SL, Noal is Jain, Moridin is Ishamael etc etc.

 

Same thing, my man.

But that's precisely the point - it's not the same. We have evidence to support Setalle notonly being an AS, but which AS. Evidence, each and every time. Where is yours? If they have evidence and you don't, then they are not the same. If they have evidence and you do, provide it as I have asked you to.

 

Oh, last thing on Channeling Power of the gals among the chosen. You defend their supposed strength level so much that it seems like you are really saying you'd rather have Messana and Moggy in a OP Fight than Rhavin, Moridin and Demandred.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. Maybe Moggy is stronger than Demandred, but she's a coward. That doesn't make her weak in the Power, but that doesn't mean she'd be the best bet in a fight, either. Tere is an arguemnt in another thread about who is stronger between Aginor and Demandred. I think Aginor, because that's what the evidence says. Others think Demandred, based on things that don't really support their case. On the other hand, i do at least understand where they are coming from. You, apparently, just pulled random theories out of thin air and insist they are the same as any other theory despite the lack of supporting evidence you provide. Poor show, man. just not cricket. You think these things are dead certain. Fine. Tell us why. I keep asking, you keep dodging, telling us it's the same as Moridin/Ishamael or similar. It isn't. That has a case for it. I've seen the case for it. I've seen the case for the body swap as well (well, I've skimmed it). I might not agree with the body swap, but I see where Luckers is coming from. I might not agree with any number of things people on here say, but at least some of them have the good grace, the common courtesy, to tell me why when I ask. Sometimes they have a viable interpretation of the facts, sometimes they have forgotten something, or never saw it, but they have a reason. Where is yours? Don't fob me off with knowing this as surely as you know other things, it's not good enough. Stop weaselling and answer me. Where is your evidence?

 

I give my opinions - this is a DISCUSSION Board (last I checked) - Not a Debate Board.

Then stop dodging and twisting and discuss.

 

And if she did have such an angreal...since the fact was conveniently omitted I tend to see the flaw in the scene rather than what I want to see.

We have been told, in text, that she has an angreal. So the flaw lies in you, not the scene.

 

Csarmi...you have not proven any of your points.

 

When you make claims, see, you are obligated to back it up. You do not do so.

Pot. Kettle. Black. If you gave your evidence, we might agree, or we might disagree. Unless and until you do, your theories are just stuff some guy has said, not backed up by any evidence. To you, these things might be certain. To us, they are not. Tell us why you think they are.

 

I think whats happpening here is a misunderstaning or forgetting of who has the onus, or the Burden of Proof, on them in a Traditional Debate.

You. You have the burden of evidence. You have put forward these theories, it is up to you to back them up. Especially as I keep asking you to.

 

So, until YOU prove that Lanfear's Belt is DEFINITELY *Not* an An'greal, you can't rightfully engage the opposite side of someone who believes it IS

You can't prove a negative. It is up to you to prove it is an angreal. We can't prove there is no evidence to support it, but if evidence exists you can provide evidence to support your theory. If it doesn't exist, if you cannot provide evidence, then drop it.

 

The onus, or Burden of Proof - in a Traditional Debate - is on YOU (or Ares etc) to prove unequivocably that Lanfear's Belt is NOT an An'greal

You put forward the theory, you must defend it. The burden lies with you.

 

Now, her Belt often had special attention called to it.

When?

 

2 It seems to me that  there hasbeen a bit of a recent Retconn/Rewrite/Revision/Backtracking here by the living members of Team Jordan...I believe this because: Brandon Sanderson said in one of the EXCELLENT and APPRECIATED Storm Leader Reports that it had also been HIS (the new author of the series lol) understanding that Cyndane was indeed waaaay waaaay weaker than Lanfear and not just way weaker, but that he had provided some notes by  Team Jordan Ace Member Maria that Mr Jordan himself had noted that this was actually NOT the case meaning that Mr Sanderson had to readjust his thinking on the matter

In other words, BS thought the same as you, and he was wrong.

 

I love the world that RJ created, but I absolutely hate all of his characters for one simple reason, he really only has two of them, well, at least for the hero point of views. He has his male character, who means well but is essentially an idiot, does not understand women, CANNOT understand women regardless of any change in his own relationships or maturity, and is, of course, incapable of harming women without the greatest of provocations (this despite the fact that in many parts of the world women regularly participate in fighting.) Rand, Perrin, and Mat all fit into this archetype.

No they don't. Neither Perrin nor Mat likes harming women, but only Rand has the insane hang up about not ever doing it, and reciting a list of all the women he has killed. And who else has this? Which other main characters share this reluctance?

 

Everyone says the same thing, RJ strung the story out to long. I don't think that's true. The root of the problem was the RJ never really developed his characters past their original states (sorry Rand bitching about getting harder every other line doesn't count.) Good books are about CHARACTER development, not just STORY development.

Choosing to ignore the character develpment doesn't meanit isn't there. There is far more to each of the main characters than you present here. We see all of them change and grow over time. Would the Perrin of book 1 have tortured that Aiel? Would the Mat of book 1 have done so much for Olver, or gone out of his way to save those AS? Would the Rand of the first book have expressed a desire to control everyone? Would he have allowed mangin to be executed? They have developed, you just refuse to see it.