Legends Discussion (December) - Taim & Logain

[el Nynaeve]

Legends: Taim & Logain

 

 

This is our first in a series of monthly discussions on legends and who better to start with than the two Black Tower faction leaders. Both can be considered legends in their own rights, both within their own world and in our literary world. So let's have a discussion on them! It can cover anything about them that you think relevant to the discussion. To get started, here are some questions you may want to consider in your reply:

 

Do you consider them legends? Why/Why not?

 

What do you think makes them legends in their own world?

 

What do you think makes them literary legends?

 

Best quality?

 

Worst quality?

 

Where do you think their plot lines are headed? (Be careful with spoilers!)

 

Those are just for starters, if you think of anything else you'd like to add, do so! :)

 

Please note: Please try to refrain from posting spoilers as much as you can. If you must post one, put a disclaimer in your post, so people will know.

[Talya]

I will start this off quickly. and just mention for those that take part in this discussion there will be points. By that I don't mean the odd one liner.

 

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I think that with Min's viewing Logain is on the raod to be a Legend, but I'm reading book 4 at present and he is already well known as far as Tear, so he was already a bit of one. Taim on the other hand is a little more obscure, although he was heard of, he was supposedly sorted out early on by the Red Ajah. I think he will become more notorious than an actual Legend, but I guess that could be legendary also.

 

I think that Taim has in some ways become a legend to those that follow him, rather than those outside the Black Tower. Maybe he will do more in future books.

 

I will continue with this another time, it's bed time.

 

What do others think?

[Locke]

At this point, in the books, Taim and Logain are just 2 more false dragons, although some probably know something about Taim and the BT, few know that Logain is even still alive.  I get the feeling that something epic will happen at the Black Tower.  With all of those viewings and foretellings and whatnot it seems like there will be a confrontation and split similar to that of the White Tower, except that this will be settled then on there, on site and with Logain as the victor (naturally the Light triumphs ;) ) due to Min's viewing of glory.

[Talya]

I have to say that out of all the characters, as a woman, Logain is most appealing to me. He comes across as more mature, and I envisage him as a knight in shining armour. In fact I really hope he does have the glory, as Min has seen. I wonder in what capacity. I think he maybe one of the ones after the Last Battle who moves the world forward. I don't know. In that case he really would be a Legend.

He also did quite a bit more than Taim, he stirred up a lot of people before he was captured, so he may not actually be The Dragon REborn, but he is a Legend in his own right!

[Locke]

I love the way Logain acts.  He's got his stuff together.  Now he just has to deal with a large group of evil male channelers.

 

I wish they'd give us a little more info on the Black Tower.  Cause right now, we know so little about what's rolling along there with Taim, Logain, and the supporting casts.  As well as everything else going along.

 

Seems like they're both heading for an epic showdown.

[Talya]

I agree, I wish we did know more. I think that would make an interesting story on it's own, but I gues The Last Battle is more important!

[el Nynaeve]

One popular theory floating around the general WoT discussion boards is that Logain takes Rand's place as the Dragon Reborn post TG, fulfilling Min's vision of glory to come. Plausible but not a scenario I would have chosen.

 

As for capacity as a literary legend, both I think are well written characters. They both have a lot of depth and there are still things about them we don't know, a lot like in RL. I like Logain better because I think he's developed and changed more as a character than Taim. Let's face it Taim is still the arrogant twat he was when we met him LoC. ;D

[Locke]

I like Taim when he first came on to the scene.  Now I realize, it's because he's evil and I didn't know it.

[WWWwombat]

I don't think we know enough about Logain.  Taim is obviously evil but we don't know how good Logain is.  He's very ambitious for sure.

[Locke]

We don't really know much about either, really.

 

Although, we can gather that Logain is against Taim and isn't a Darkfriend from his various scenes I think.

[WWWwombat]

Yeah but you can screw things up for the Light without being a Darkfriend (Elaida anyone?).  But yeah, I'd trust Logain much further than any of the Asha'man not in Rands little cadre.

[Locke]

Yeah, I doubt Logain is as crazy as Elaida.  You know, Elaida wasn't that bad at the beginning.  It wasn't until she got herself made Amryling, did things get bad.

[Coravron]

 

Do you consider them legends? Why/Why not?

I consider Logain to be a legend.  Any man that can learn to channel, deal with the taint, raise an army, kick some ass, then lose a fight, lose his power and reputation and honour and dignity, help those that beat him, 'escape' and then join an school only to help those lesser than he and become great again, only to serve the Dragon and deal with life as a subordinate knowing that your equal at the school is a douchebag is a legend to me...

He has gone from everything, to nothing, to knowing he was wrong and fixing the world as best he can.

 

Taim... eh.  We don't know his story yet.  If he's a darkfriend that's strong in the power... whatever.

If he's a forsakin (yes we know he isn't, but humour me) or he's about to be raised as one, well that's interesting, but no biggy.  Rand's been wiping out the Chosen fairly easily.

If he's an average joe with an attitude problem, well then he created a school of ass kickers to rival the greatest power of the age in only a year.  That's pretty damn impressive.  Maybe not a legend, but still impressive.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Bashere didnt recognise Taim in Lord of Chaos. Moridins body is similar to Taims description, and they show up at roughly the same time.

 

Now, I dont think they are the same person. But I think something is there, much like I think there is something between Moridin and Shaidar.

 

Call me loony, but could Moridin be in Taims original body? Not sure why that would be the case, but just thinking out loud.

[Al Jenn Mael]

Do you consider them legends? Why/Why not?

 

"The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again."

 

I think that they were legends from the time they declared they were the dragon up until halfway through the series. Anyone who proclaimed they were the dragon and could channel prior to Rands declaration was a feared legend. As you can see from all the talk in The Eye of the World. However current events quickly sweep aside those actions, although they are still infamous their deeds have been belittled by the staggering amount of epic feats, stories, and otherwise that have happened throughout the books. I think that Taim and Logain will be legends in the future, but I'll leave that for the other question. 

 

Where do you think their plot lines are headed? (Be careful with spoilers!)

 

Well I believe Logain is going to take over the Black Tower and move into Elaidas Amyrillan black tower next to the white tower. Logain and Egwene will lead the servants and guardians after the final battle. This is what I believe is Logains 'future glory'. I'm not sure if Taim is just crazy/tainted or if he is a darkfriend, dreadloard, or chosen whichever term you prefer. I think he has been raised to chosen/forsaken status. Right now there is corruption in the BT, but Cadsuane still needs to teach them "Laughter and Tears" so it isn't as inclusive as we are lead to believe. There needs to be a purge/split in the Black Tower and I think Taim and Logain will lead their respective sides and that will be what makes them legends.

[WWWwombat]

Taim is a darkfriend and high in the hierarchy too imo.  I would call him a dreadlord.  He ordered darkfriend Asha'man to kill Rand and knows the phrase "Let the lord of chaos rule."

[Locke]

It really makes you wonder, doesn't it.

[Featherless Hawkwing]

Taim certainly seems pretty Dark, but we can't really be certain of Logain's true allegiances either. Taking what we've seen in the books at face value and assuming (perhaps foolishly) that RJ hasn't misled us in the text: Taim is a Darkfriend at least, probably a Dreadlord and maybe a newly minted Forsaken as well; Logain, on the other hand, is a proud and powerful man that has decided to swallow his pride and work for the Light, even if it means crooking knee to man whose title he once held.

 

Both have accomplished some truly remarkable achievements, although I'd give a slight edge to Taim's. Logain managed to raise an army of Dragonsworn, kill a whole bunch of Aes Sedai, escape from his captors, undermine his enemies and, finally, take his place at the Dragon Reborn's side as an enigmatic but nevertheless trusted lieutenant. He can be fairly odious when seen through Rand's eyes, but at least he doesn't cringe before him like so many others do.

 

Taim wasn't as successful a false Dragon as Logain was--he was captured quicker, caused less devastation and didn't manage to take many (any?) Aes Sedai with him when he was captured. But he did escape, and eluded pursuit across half a continent while being tracked by a bloody army of Saldaeans. And then, to top it off, he created his own army of Asha'man, ostensibly for Rand, and now holds their allegiance more than the Dragon Reborn. He may be the single most powerful public figure in Randland besides Rand--he certainly has more channelers at his disposal than anyone else. The Aes Sedai may have slightly greater numbers, but they do not use the power as a weapon--and even if they did, men are stronger and better at violence.

 

Both of them are incredibly strong in the OP. My initial impression upon meeting Taim was that he was a good bit stronger than Logain--after all, Taim was said to be a hair weaker than Rand himself, while Logain had never been compared, especially in light of Verin's (erroneous, it turns out) comments about Logain and his inability to use the Choedan Kal. But the later books indicate that they must be fairly evenly matched, although Taim has been channeling for longer and seems to . . . know things. The two are clearly easily above minimum Forsaken strength, and might even be as strong as the likes of Sammael/Demandred/Aginor.

 

As for where their story-lines will go, I think we need to be on our guard. Taim's evil has been emphasised perhaps a little too often for me not to imagine the smell of rat, or maybe red herring. Logain seems noble enough, but people cheer so much for him to have Taim's head on a pike that I can't help being suspicious. I know that sometimes things really are as they seem, but there are too many cracks for deception to slip through in this case.

 

How can we know that 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' is a Darkfriend saying? We've only heard it from the DO, the Forsaken and Taim himself, but can we be certain that isn't just our luck? It's part of a nursery rhyme in the next Age, but that's probably just an ironic joke on RJ's part. The saying, along with Taim's use of the Old Tongue, phrases like 'so-called Aiel' and his obvious contempt for modern Aes Sedai, are strong indications of some kind of AoL connection--and how else would a male channeler be connected with the AoL but through the Forsaken?

 

Then there is his channeling for years and remaining sane. He appears to be in his thirties--if he was a sparker, he must have been channeling for at least a decade and probably more than that--some men are said to spark as late as their mid-twenties, but we have no reason to assume it's commonplace. If so, he must have slowed by now, in which case he must be even older than he appears. And that's even more suspicious. And if he isn't a sparker, he must have been taught, which makes him also certain to be a Darkfriend and understudy to Ishamael himself.

 

The most unambiguous evidence against Taim is the 'Kill Rand' Order, revealed to us by Torval in his PoV in Far Madding. Maybe one of the Forsaken was impersonating him, although I can't see why one would wish to do so.

 

We might not be certain he's a DF, but he's certainly not nice.

 

And Logain? Well, let's just say we don't know enough to be certain either way. I don't trust the man, although I have little reason to suspect him. My expectation is that he will turn out to be a goodie and possibly--although I hate to think it--the one who gets the glory in Rand's place (see the 'stepping over Rand's crumbling body' dream). More than his role among the Asha'man--as a counterweight to Logain and, apparently, the voice of reason in the Black Tower--it's his behaviour towards Siuan, Leane and Min on the way to Salidar that leads me to give him the benefit of the doubt. His relationship(s) with his bonded Aes Sedai don't seem to fit evil either.

 

Or maybe they're both selfish bastards who will betray Rand and each other, given the right chance, DFs or not.

 

Or maybe RJ will do a dazzling 180 and Taim will turn out the good guy, and Logain the bad.

 

I don't know why I wrote all that, as most of you probably know it all anyway. Ah, it's been a long time, and it feels good to ramble. Here's to an epic battle at the Black Tower in ToM . . . or did we already have one in TGS? Hahaha, read the book already, fools!

[Talya]

Interesting thoughts Featherless. My only thing about it is that Min had a viewing of Logain and saw Glory. Which at the time was odd. I don't think it would have looked like that if he turned out to be a darkfriend. I think someone would have come to his rescue, considering the way he managed to do more on his own than Taim did.

 

I have to agree with everything you say about Taim though, he is not a nice guy, whether he is self serving or a darkfriend of some sort.

 

I just can't see Logain as a darkfriend though. There was a POV of his that he felt Rand kept some of the weaves back from him. If he was a dark friend I'm sure he would have known about them, but his POV showed that he didn't and that he was still learning from Rand! I know that isn't proof, but it adds a little more.

 

I think he will be the one that leads everyone after the Great Battle. I think Rand will want to go off into obscurity.

[Al Jenn Mael]

Assuming Rand lives ;p

 

I would have to agree with you Talya. I think Egwene and Logain are going to usher in a new era with an uneasy but growing alliance.

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

I definitely don't think everything will be hunky dory in the next age. It won't be a golden age, but it will be healing. I think Rand will somehow come back from death. Logain and Egwene will need to work with/against the Seachan. Things won't be finished there before TG.

 

Ok, I'm going to get sidetracked. Yes, I believe Min's viewing of 'glory' is meant for after TG. I also believe that Taim will die at TG. There will be a few males joined with the WT vs many from the Black Tower turned shadow with the remaining members of the Black Ajah.

[Talya]

I agree, I don't think it will be all Roses after the great battle neither. I don't Rand will be the one to heal it neither, though I think he would be a Legend in his own right.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Taim did die at TG, and then he could have his own Legend. One of "If you aren't good Taim will get you" or something like that. More infamy than Legend and glory!

[Locke]

Plus, if Logain was a darkfriend, why is he so anti Taim?  And it just makes more sense from a storyline standpoint for RJ to make him good.

 

 

[Talya]

I hope so, I think I would be devastated if he was on the Shadow side. All my broken dreams of him being a Knight in Shining armour.. lol

[ConQuest]

i honestly belive Taim is a Darkfiend due to the fact that he hasent had to prove any loyalty to Rand... he was practically posted as the leader of the black tower, and then he was basicly given free reign to do whatever he wanted..

 

Logain on the other hand is either going to lead the black tower or make an alinance with Ewgene once word spreads that she is the New amyrlin

 

Thats my thoughts in a nut shell.. Cause thats all it'll fill  ;D

[Al Jenn Mael]

Well we are all lead to believe that. Doesn't it seem to... obvious? There must be some factor we aren't seeing.