The Military Discussion Thread. (Full Spoilers)

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Ok, now you have mentioned moving Shadowspawn around so many times I think I need to remind you about one little detail- Shadowspawn can not Travel, they die if they go through a Gateway. Which means the onle relatively easy means of moving around is the Ways, and that means other problems, even if Machin Shin seems to be less of a threat these days.

The Ways. If they can dump 100k Trollocs onto Rand once, they can do it again.

 

Plus, this has been discussed elsewhere I think... The book opens with Mishima getting his throat destroyed while within the Seanchan "perimeter" (I believe that's the term Tylee used).

 

The forces used were by no means small from memory.

 

How did they get there?

 

The simple answer, in terms of TG, is that if the Trollocs were to merely appear from the Blight then, it would be exactly as Rand expects it, which, as the mad general points out, is highly unlikely.

[Majsju]

 

The closest (historical) idea of rapidly deploying mortars, or crossbowmen with the rapid fire boxes – to me that’s the British Royal Horse Artillery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Horse_Artillery

 

Majsju (not that I believe anything he says, he’s somewhat senile *Grins at Maj*) said that the idea originated in Sweden, but the idea of fast-moving artillery is the same. Substitute those for Ashaman and it becomes pretty interesting.

 

In any case, that’s how I see Mat’s people being used. Obviously, with Gateways, you can add infantry / all-arms support to the “guns”.

 

Majsju could be referencing Gustavus Adolphus who did a lot of successful work with mobile arty in the Thirty Years War.

 

Bingo, that is the fella.

 

The Light has to be strategically offensive and somehow repair the Bore/ destroy GLoD's escape prospect while defending civilian populations as far as possible. In terms of conventional warfare, the Light must aim for total annihilation of GloD's forces or somehow create a military stalemate, minimising civilian casualties, while striking directly at GLoD himself.

 

I do not think the Light has to aim for total annihilation, at least not as the initial objective. They need to stand up against the massive onslaught that is coming, but not much more than that. Not until Rand has sealed the Bore, resulting in the removal of the DO and probably a great deal of the remaining forsaken from the board. Once that is done, the Light can start focusing on wiping out what remains of the Shadows forces.

 

One big plus for the Light is the apparent lack of decent generals amongst the Dark. Of course, if Rhuarc or Bael or Bashere or Galgan are Friends of the Dark, there are problems!

 

 

Well, there is this bloke Demandred, who has experience of this kind of warfare that only Mat can come even close to. But then, he is just one man.

 

The Ways. If they can dump 100k Trollocs onto Rand once, they can do it again.

 

Plus, this has been discussed elsewhere I think... The book opens with Mishima getting his throat destroyed while within the Seanchan "perimeter" (I believe that's the term Tylee used).

 

The forces used were by no means small from memory.

 

How did they get there?

 

The simple answer, in terms of TG, is that if the Trollocs were to merely appear from the Blight then, it would be exactly as Rand expects it, which, as the mad general points out, is highly unlikely.

 

Yeah, the Ways is what the Shadow must rely on. But, even with Machin Shin on vacation, or whatever it is it is up to, the Ways are far more limited that Travelling, going long distances takes several days.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

It's been a puzzle to me since PoD when I first thought of it. Rand didn't do it in that campaign.

See, using that 50K- 100 Channelers equation, assume (very rough estimates) each channeler can open a Gate where 30 guys can wander through every minute. The 50K takes around an half-hour to redeploy assuming slippages.

If you can tie off the gates with reasonable safety - you could have one channeler opening a series of gates and either speed the process up or deploy fewer channelers.

We have a few examples. Grady could open a gate that put two men through together.

Verin managed to pass 7K men to Caemlyn in a few hours (which suggests that she was weaving smaller gates even with her angreal). 

Obviously from Grady's conversation, tying off wasn't an option. As we both feel, RJ probably didn't think this through and you'll have to retcon finding reasons why it isn't possible. 

Tying off Gateways seems entirely reasonable. And, the strength of the channeler will be important. The number of angreal is still very low.

 

However, moving 50k men through a hole in the air isn’t ever going to be as simple as saying “Ok lads, everyone form a line, tall ones at the back, little ‘uns at the front, off you go.” It’ll involve moving horses, weapons, medical supplies, camp hangers on etc., etc., time required to scout out the area  – That’s if we’re talking about deployment in general.

 

Combat deployment would take considerably less time, given that you’ll be leaving all your crap behind. But still, 50k isn’t a small number. Logistically it’d be a total nightmare. Deploying 50k from one static position, through a gateway and out the other side in any semblance of order would be a feat in itself.

 

I’d say that 50k in half an hour is optimistic, quite optimistic. Lightening fast in reality, but still.

True Sharon was incredibly lucky and the Egyptians and Syrians obviously had chain of command issues fighting wars of movement. They weren't trained for individual crews to display initiative.

It all comes down to fear of punishment. If you read the Israeli accounts of ’48, ’56, ’67 and ’73, it’s apparent that officers and SNCOs were worried of being blamed for failure at all times. Moreover, the general staff didn’t want them to act independtly. The only example where this isn’t true is the Jordanian Army, who were trained by the Brits. And special forces, such as those opposing Sharon’s crossing in ’73. There was also a societal issue, in that officers weren’t overly concerned with their men’s welfare in general and this translated into their men being unwilling to go the extra mile when the situation demanded, which is understandable.

 

This led to a lack of flexibility, low morale, an unwillingness to really fight as hard as they could (exacerbated by the fact that they were mainly conscripts), and on a regular basis, officers lying when reporting the outcome of encounters and their final positions. E.g. “Yes boss, the boys and I now hold hill 12345,” when in reality, ¾ of the boys were dead and they only held the bottom of the slope. Makes it kind of difficult to plan effectively when your soldiers are lying to you.

 

The Jordanians on the other hand, with a Western outlook toward training, were actually quite formidable fighters. Certainly on a par with anything the Israelis ever hit them with. Until the reforms had bitten too deep following the end of British training.

 

The other side of all this is that, when in prepared defensive positions, the Arab forces, in the main, gave a good account of themselves. So, they can clearly fight, but their leadership sucks.

At least in Yom Kippur, the Egyptian general staff worked out the first crossing and bridgehead establishment thoroughly. They failed to exploit their success, held back reserves until too late, dug into the Bar Lev line and tried to hold that instead of trying to assault the mountain passes or the coast road to Gaza. The Iraqis showed complete lack of ability. 

All true.

 

But, then I think you have to get into the politics of it all. What did Egypt want? Peace or territorial gains? I think peace. As a result, would a prolonged attack have served any good?

 

After the war they did, after all, become the first Arab state to sign a treaty with Israel. One that endures today.

 

Before the mods arrive and give us a slap on the wrist – If you’d like to continue this discussion, which I’d like to do, I suggest we move it to the Debates and Discussions Board. – Though I warn you, there are trolls and other beasties therein.

The Shadow can in strategic terms, play for time and distraction. Given time, GLoD can break free. What He then intends is a different issue.

The Light has to be strategically pro-active while defending as much in the way of civilian populations as it can.

He who defends everything defends nothing.

 

You’re right, but I think they’ll, ultimately, lose.

 

If TG doesn’t come to Rand winning, saving humanity when all other efforts have failed, then, in my opinion, it’d be a total let down.

If it can deny the Ways, it can prevent trollocs being brought in, reducing the sheer numbers.

True.

Majsju could be referencing Gustavus Adolphus who did a lot of successful work with mobile arty in the Thirty Years War.

That’s him.

I don't think GLoD's forces will be out to destroy everything but they would be prepared to cause massive casualties. Like I said earlier, He can be strategically defensive because He's playing for time. That gives more tactical flexibility. if he can tie down the forces of the Light to defending civvy populations, he wins the time.

 

The Light has to be strategically offensive and somehow repair the Bore/ destroy GLoD's escape prospect while defending civilian populations as far as possible. In terms of conventional warfare, the Light must aim for total annihilation of GloD's forces or somehow create a military stalemate, minimising civilian casualties, while striking directly at GLoD himself.

I think the DO is out to beat Rand (as opposed to his armies), nothing else matters.

 

In that sense, he doesn’t need to take things, e.g. a capital city, all he needs to do is kill and destroy in order to stop Rand’s boys being able to get to him. If that means wiping out a city and killing it’s inhabitants, then so be it. – It rips a hole in the Light’s infrastructure, psychological effect, etc., etc., refugee problems, etc., etc..

 

In any case, Rand’s armies are useless when it comes down to the DO and overall outcome. All they’ll determine is how many people survive.

One big plus for the Light is the apparent lack of decent generals amongst the Dark. Of course, if Rhuarc or Bael or Bashere or Galgan are Friends of the Dark, there are problems!

Demandred’s the only one.

 

He can’t be everywhere at once and all it takes, as we are often told, is a single arrow.

 

-

As an aside…

 

At the end of the day, the military situation is largely irrelevant. Rand’s soldiers won’t be able to confront the DO, after all, what does he care if they rock up and take Shayol Ghul?

 

The only people who will influence the outcome will be the people who are stopping Rand from getting killed while he’s fighting the DO.

 

As a result, the only way to save the world (literally and in terms of suffering massive casualties) is to hit the DO as soon as possible.

 

Which, given that Sanderson thinks he needs a book (I think he says a book-long TG is to be expected), can’t happen. Besides… Rand turning up, smacking the DO in the head with Callandor and then falling over dead (or whatever) would be pretty uninspiring if it happened too early.

[Impressive Bosom]

Since we clearly have some military buffs on this board and this thread seems like an appropriate one to do it on, I want to reccomend one of the best non-fiction books I have ever read. It's titled 'Culture and Carnage' by Victor Hansen. It discusses nine key battles/wars throughout history where an army of free men representing western culture and the western philosophy of war battled vastly superior (numbers wise) forces of slaves, mercenaries or indentured warriors and won. The battles include that of the Greek naval victory over Xerxes, the Battle of Midway and Cortez' march on Mexico City... all were key battles throughout history and all won by Western forces due to their ability to think creatively, the fact that they were an army of freemen who chose to fight and had the kind of superior weapons and equipment that a free market economy would be nature provide. All in all a fascinating read.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385720386/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0385500521&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1HS6NK9BANYS6QQSPHR8

 

(I assume posting a link to the book is okay - if not, please feel free to edit/delete)

[Sharaman]

Yes, Hansen is an interesting if slightly idiosyncratic look at key points of military history.

He's very scholarly and argues well.

 

[wingedearth]

GLoD has one major thing in his favour - time.

If Rand & Co. don't find a way of taking Him out, the seals will eventually all break.

Then he can enlarge the Bore and finally, given enough time, He'll be free.

He would be perfectly happy to keep the Light occupied with politicking, skirmishes, or full-scale wars until such time. This is why GLoD is in no particular hurry to precipitate a crisis.

The Light has to attack GLoD directly before that happens.

 

However, GLoD isn't conducting the campaign - the Chosen are.

And, with the exception of Moridin, the Chosen are self-seeking, power loving characters.

They would like to fight and win decisively in military conflicts or however, so that they can enjoy their dominions and indulge in the high life.

 

This divergence in objectives may be a weakness.  

If the Chosen can be stampeded or tempted into premature action, it might give the Light some edge.

But Rand has to know what he can do at Shayol Ghul. Killing GLoD is apparently impossible. Sealing him off with a new set of seals is not a permanent solution if it's even possible.

 

 

 

This begs a question... if the DO wants the destruction of all things and the Chosen want dominion to rule, power and hedonistic pleasures... aren't those goals in conflict? Is the stage set for some great betrayal by the Chosen or even some of them (Morridin) when they get 'buyers remorse' at realizing that if the DO has his way, there will be nothing left to rule?

 

 

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Lanfear and probably others of the Forsaken have seen what happens to the world when the Dark One's forces win. Remember the world in The Great Hunt where pretty much everything was dead besides grolm? Who would want to rule a world like that? Maybe that's why she wanted to join up with Rand and use the Choedan Kal to topple Shai-***

[Durinax]

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Lanfear and probably others of the Forsaken have seen what happens to the world when the Dark One's forces win. Remember the world in The Great Hunt where pretty much everything was dead besides grolm? Who would want to rule a world like that? Maybe that's why she wanted to join up with Rand and use the Choedan Kal to topple Shai-***

I dont think that would be what it would be like if the DO won, thats what happens if trollocs killed the humans and where allowed to run wild

[Sharaman]

GLoD isn't selling that dream of complete depopulation to his Chosen.

They've all been told that there's lot of pelf and slaves and eternal life etc.

Except perhaps Moridin, who seems to actually seek an end to it all.

What GLoD actually intends once He's free is perhaps, a different kettle of fish.

OTOH He has time on His side since He is immortal. Perhaps He will allow the Chosen to amuse themselves playing games for a century or a millennium.

@ Thin InnKeeper - would be happy to talk RL wars elsewhere but you'll have to set up the thread.

Agree about the Jordanians BTW - they were the only guys who did a reasonable job in '67 and Jahweh alone knows how badly Israel would have been stretched if HRH Hussain had decided to reclaim the West Bank. IIRC, he just loaned an armoured regiment to the Syrians who got the poor sods butchered by friendly fire.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

GLoD isn't selling that dream of complete depopulation to his Chosen.

They've all been told that there's lot of pelf and slaves and eternal life etc.

Except perhaps Moridin, who seems to actually seek an end to it all.

What GLoD actually intends once He's free is perhaps, a different kettle of fish.

OTOH He has time on His side since He is immortal. Perhaps He will allow the Chosen to amuse themselves playing games for a century or a millennium.

@ Thin InnKeeper - would be happy to talk RL wars elsewhere but you'll have to set up the thread.

Agree about the Jordanians BTW - they were the only guys who did a reasonable job in '67 and Jahweh alone knows how badly Israel would have been stretched if HRH Hussain had decided to reclaim the West Bank. IIRC, he just loaned an armoured regiment to the Syrians who got the poor sods butchered by friendly fire.

 

 

Another way to look at it I suppose, one that keeps the Chosen in collusion with him, is that the DO intends to break the wheel and kill the serpent, not for the destruction of all things period, but for the destruction of all things NOW... allowing him not to merely remake a world in his own image but all of reality. A reality in which the Chosen would be God-Kings, so to speak.

 

Now that's assuming a lot, but the DO is clearly an entity with more going on than a desire for simple mindless destruction.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Tiiii-ii-ii-iiime is on his siiiiide, yes it is!

[wingedearth]

Maybe the Dark One is trying to create an evil world where there is no One Power, where no one trusts his or her neighbor, where wars are fought for the the profit of those who have no stake in the outcome, where disease and sexual perversion are rampant, where the lives of the masses revolve around frivolity and degeneracy, where courage is frowned upon as insanity and cowardice is lauded as bravery. Maybe the Dark One wants to create a world where nation and heritage have no meaning, and profit and self-indulgence the only socially acceptable motive.

 

If that's the case, maybe he ought to come visit New York!

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

@ Thin InnKeeper - would be happy to talk RL wars elsewhere but you'll have to set up the thread.

Agree about the Jordanians BTW - they were the only guys who did a reasonable job in '67 and Jahweh alone knows how badly Israel would have been stretched if HRH Hussain had decided to reclaim the West Bank. IIRC, he just loaned an armoured regiment to the Syrians who got the poor sods butchered by friendly fire.

Done ... or rather will do.

[NetSlider]

 

IIRC, Aviendha identified a couple of the artifacts Elayne has as a kind of radio or mobile phone.

 

 

When did you get this from? Can you reference it for me? I'm just thinking about something else but this little piece of info might be the answer.

Thanks

[Alba]

*parachutes in*

 

I want to drop an out-of-the-box idea in here about grand strategy. We *know* that Moridin has been, for quite some time now, been conserving Shadowspawn and other forces. Not only has there not been a raid on the Blightborder for almost two years now, but the Chosen have an order to report *any* movement of Shadowspawn via the Ways (the only other known way to place Shadowspawn in Randland). It is assumed that he's saving them for TG, and this seems a reasonable idea. However, there's this assumption that there will be an offensive by the Dark.

 

Why should there be?

 

TG, say all the prophecies, is *one battle*. This isn't a war, where you are thinking of consequences down the line; or, rather, the war has been the entirety of the Third Age. The Light's only hope is, and always has been, to seal the Bore. And the only place that can be done is Shayol Ghul.

 

You're thinking too much about how to maximize victory conditions for the Light, when piddly little things like the magnitude of the surviving population(?!) are secondary. Maintaining or destroying the structure of reality is the primary goal of the game, and there's only one spot to move the Fisher onto that gives victory for the Light in this case.

 

If I were Moridin, I would be developing massive, intensive, and layered defense in depth around the mouth of the Pit. Wards against Traveling, traps both mechanical and Power-based, milyuns and milyuns of Shadowspawn, mind-warping illusions and brain-numbing horrors, twisting of reality... you name it. Every trick the Shadow has to make life miserable, unleashed at one spot at one time. All to try to keep Rand, Callandor, his circle (including at least Alivia and one other female -- Nyn? Moir?), and whoever's defending him (Mat and Perrin, minimum) safe long enough to get to the Pit and seal the Bore.

 

Attacks on the Blightborder (including on Lan's forces at Tarwin's Gap/Malkier) and into cities will all be feints. They may be substantial feints, requiring substantial response; but they will be feints nonetheless. You win or lose at Shayol Ghul.

 

(Odd thought, possibly relevant: has anyone ever tried to go to Shayol Ghul in T'A'R? What would happen?)

[thewalrus777]

The Blight cannot be reached in T'A'R. It's the same as trying to go to the stedding in T'A'R. Both are apparently considered outside the pattern...i guess.

[NetSlider]

"9. Question: How many trollocs did the Dark One have access to?

 

9. Answer: [brandon] stated definitively that there are lots and lots of trollocs. The Dark One has access to either "orders of magnitudes more" or "an order of magnitude" more trollocs that can be supported in the blights (I can't remember whether there was an "s" there. Sorry). He wouldn't comment on how or where, but was very clear that there was going to be a big big trolloc army."

 

Not sure where outside of Blight DO can keep the Trollocs. The Ways, maybe, but the Dark Wind would have a field day. On the other hand, maybe TAR or the portal stone worlds. If the portal stone world is an answer than the light will have some very, very, very serious issues to deal with. That's my 2 cents on the issue.

 

Any ideas?

[Durinax]

if their in the portal stone worlds the trollocs may be in serious trouble depending on which one they landed on (some time moves faster others time moves much slower) so they may be to old to fight or else enough time could have passed in the normal world that when they coem back and humanity has won, that they just get slaughtered

[bronnt]

1) Regarding the use of tying off Gateways-this works in a limited fashion, but remember when Sammael tied off Gates in LoC; they close unpredictably and slice through people moving through them.  The Shadow may not care about wasting people like that, but the Light would have a problem killing its own people through carelessness, which is a check on their ability to Travel.

 

Additionally, holding open a gateway you've already created takes significantly less strength than opening a new one.  And there are a few problems anyway-think Sammael/Rah'vin putting up wards in their respective cities so they know where someone is channeling, then immediately launching attacks when they feel a Gate, doing significant damage.

 

2) The issue of resupply: One issue for the Light is that, aside from SG, they don't have a clear target to aim at, but a ton of defensive positions to hold.  While most typical foot soldiers are likely to carry all their weapons/armor on their person, bowmen and crossbowmen need to be kept supplied with arrows.  You have to have storehouses for materials to make arrows, as well as manufactories for Fletchers to put them together.

 

One more big issue are food store-houses.  We've seen the problems with Elayne defending grain storehouses in Caemlyn, and even given the smaller number of channelers the Dark has, it doesn't take many channelers to Gate in, blast a grain silo, and leave-so the Light is forced to commit channelers to expressly defend against attacks on food stores (and hopefully far away from Rand cause food just doesn't last around him!).  Things like this compromise mobility-even if you you managed to mobilize an extensive grain supply in wagons and just Traveled to random places to prevent it being attacked, your own soldiers need to be able to find it so it can be distributed.

 

The Shadow's disadvantages in terms of mobility are made up for by their lack of soft targets.  The Light has to commit forces to defense because they can't count on learning of an attack on their food stores in time to Travel and prevent it.  The Rand we saw in tGS might have just continued attacking, not caring about people being slaughtered to his rear, but morale would break down for the rest of his forces.

[Sharaman]

Sammael deliberaely knotted the gateways for the Shaido loosely as did Rand with his deathgates.

We've never seen a "tightly knotted" gate.

Nor do we have any official explanation why it can't be done.

Best guess is that RJ didn't think this through since it's an important detail one way or another.

 

[bronnt]

Sammael deliberaely knotted the gateways for the Shaido loosely as did Rand with his deathgates.

We've never seen a "tightly knotted" gate.

 

 

Unless there's a direct quote from RJ that confirms this, that's interpreting a great deal from a very few words.

 

Here's all I can find about what Sammael did.  This is from aCoS, Ch. 40.

 

Unlike with the others, Sammael had not simply knotted this one so it would fall apart eventually.

 

I guess that can be read two ways. 

 

1)He hadn't knotted it, so it wouldn't eventually fall apart.

2)He hadn't simply knotted it in a fashion that would eventually cause it to fall apart.

 

Interpretation #1 does explain away some of the logistical problems involved in tying off Gateways that are mentioned in TGS.  The only other time we hear about tying off Gateways is in KoD, when Neald mentions he's been doing it.  Since he seemed miffed that he's tying them off (I don't have that quote handy), I'm guessing he knows there's a risk of them collapsing eventually.

[Sharaman]

Sammael deliberaely knotted the gateways for the Shaido loosely as did Rand with his deathgates.

We've never seen a "tightly knotted" gate.

 

 

Unless there's a direct quote from RJ that confirms this, that's interpreting a great deal from a very few words.

As far as I know, there is no such direct quote. However, we've never seen Gates mentioned as knotted during the Ilian campaign and -- also later in the Perrin PoVs, there's either a slip or a technical problem with Gate-knotting. See below.

 

Here's all I can find about what Sammael did.  This is from aCoS, Ch. 40.

 

Unlike with the others, Sammael had not simply knotted this one so it would fall apart eventually.

 

I guess that can be read two ways. 

 

1)He hadn't knotted it, so it wouldn't eventually fall apart.

2)He hadn't simply knotted it in a fashion that would eventually cause it to fall apart.

Interpretation #1 does explain away some of the logistical problems involved in tying off Gateways that are mentioned in TGS. 

 

(Do you mean "1)He hadn't knotted it, so it would eventually fall apart.")

 

If gates aren't knotted at all, they snap shut instantly when the weave is released - not eventually fall apart.

 

So he must have a) knotted the other Gates in a fashion that would lead to them eventually falling apart

b) Following from a, it must have been a loose knot Sammael used, rather than a tight permanent one.

 

 

The only other time we hear about tying off Gateways is in KoD, when Neald mentions he's been doing it.  Since he seemed miffed that he's tying them off (I don't have that quote handy), I'm guessing he knows there's a risk of them collapsing eventually.

 

 

In TGS Grady speaks to Perrin about the calculations Balwer made for moving 100,000 people through Neald and Grady's Gates. Grady can open a Gate, which can pass two people at a time.

Grady says he's so tired, he won't be able to hold a Gate open for more than an hour.

If he could tightly knot Gates, that wouldn't be a problem.

He could open an entire series without exhausting himself.

I can't reference the Neald quote since I don't have the books around and all I remember is that he was tired. But if Neald said he was knotting off Gates, then there is either a slip because Grady doesn't consider it in TGS. Or there's a technical problem with knotting Gates tightly.

I've a feeling it's a slip because it would be such an obvious efficiency-multiplier and it's never apparently used by Rand in his Ilian campaigns versus Seanchan or Sammael. Nor is it used by anyone else. Nor is there an explanation of why it is technically nfeasible.

 

 

[bronnt]

Unless there's a direct quote from RJ that confirms this, that's interpreting a great deal from a very few words.

As far as I know, there is no such direct quote. However, we've never seen Gates mentioned as knotted during the Ilian campaign and -- also later in the Perrin PoVs, there's either a slip or a technical problem with Gate-knotting. See below.

 

Here's all I can find about what Sammael did.  This is from aCoS, Ch. 40.

 

Unlike with the others, Sammael had not simply knotted this one so it would fall apart eventually.

 

I guess that can be read two ways. 

 

1)He hadn't knotted it, so it wouldn't eventually fall apart.

2)He hadn't simply knotted it in a fashion that would eventually cause it to fall apart.

Interpretation #1 does explain away some of the logistical problems involved in tying off Gateways that are mentioned in TGS. 

 

(Do you mean "1)He hadn't knotted it, so it would eventually fall apart.")

 

If gates aren't knotted at all, they snap shut instantly when the weave is released - not eventually fall apart.

 

Sorry, there's a bit of contextual confusion because he was referring to another gate.  It made sense in my head when I posted, since I was filling in the gaps.

 

When Sammael is making Gates for the Shai'do, he holds the last one open until the very last Shaido goes through.

 

Therefore, he didn't knot it, leading to my two interpretations.

[bronnt]

Actually, let me phrase this differently.  Graendal is referring to what he did that was different from what he did with the other Gates.  Based that, we can assume

 

1) The other Gates fell apart because he had tied them off, or

2) The other Gates fell apart as a result of the way he had tied them off.

 

Give the quote I provided, there's not enough to make conclusions either way.  But as I said, interpretation #1 helps explain Perrin's logistical problems in TGS.

 

Of course, as I said in another thread, the whole thing is a plot-hole anyway, since there's no reason they can' just Travel to where Rand is (or to the Black Tower) and borrow a few dozen Asha'Man in order to just move everyone.  But of course, the whole story is altered in order to keep Tam hidden from Rand until almost the end of the book-this is how plot holes are created.

[Sharaman]

@Bronnt - ok that's clearer.

Unfortunately as you say, there's not enough to tell us whether he did it deliberately with a loose knot, or if Gates that are knotted always do fall apart. In the specific context, Sammael wants the gates to fall apart.

Yes - that is another thing that occurred to me as well.

A courier hub-spoke method of using channelers ala Fed Ex makes sense.

Keep a central pool of channelers somewhere, where everyone can access them at need.