Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Messi is almost certainly putting on an ageless face.

Any AS who's worn the shawl more than 2-3 years is ageless.

That's part of why she's only vaguely familiar if we reference Suian and Leane, whose intimates had trouble recognising them.

Was Danelle a sitter though? I think she was just part of Elaida's council and original bunch of supporters.

One reason why she faded in (apparent) importance was that she wasn't a sitter. 

[yoniy0]

Hmm, I just assumed everyone on that group that deposed Siuan was a Sitter. Why else would Elaida bring someone into her confidence? Also, Danelle is still there for Elaida's meetings with them after she was raised, and everybody else present is either the Keeper or a Sitter.

I might be wrong. I'll see if I can find proof.

[DemandredFO]

I could see Eliada being abitious enough to say to Danelle, you help me I don't care who or what you are, in essence not ask too many questions as long as you help me

[mossman87]

Druugan said it better than I ever could, agree 100%.

 

Also Danelle isn't a Sitter.

[thewalrus777]

Druugan said it better than I ever could, agree 100%.

 

Also Danelle isn't a Sitter.

 

I've drank the Danelle Kool-Aid, because it just makes the most sense.

[mossman87]

Druugan said it better than I ever could, agree 100%.

 

Also Danelle isn't a Sitter.

 

I've drank the Danelle Kool-Aid, because it just makes the most sense.

 

It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

[thewalrus777]

Druugan said it better than I ever could, agree 100%.

 

Also Danelle isn't a Sitter.

 

I've drank the Danelle Kool-Aid, because it just makes the most sense.

 

It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

 

She's in the right places at the right times. She has the look as well. And her actions have spoken louder than words. Yes it is very obvious.

[Druugan]

Messi is almost certainly putting on an ageless face.

Any AS who's worn the shawl more than 2-3 years is ageless.

 

I believe this is incorrect.  I'm pretty sure that it has been mentioned that none of the Forsaken have the ageless AS face.  It has been stated that it is apparently the Oath Rod that causes the ageless face along with a shorter lifespan than say... the Aiel Wise Ones and the Kin.  Many of whom are older than any AS and none of which have the ageless appearance.  The custom of the Oath Rod was begun after the breaking to help convince the general public that they could be trusted.  So no pre-breaking AS (i.e. the Forsaken) would have done this or acquired the ageless face.

[thewalrus777]

Messi is almost certainly putting on an ageless face.

Any AS who's worn the shawl more than 2-3 years is ageless.

 

I believe this is incorrect.  I'm pretty sure that it has been mentioned that none of the Forsaken have the ageless AS face.  It has been stated that it is apparently the Oath Rod that causes the ageless face along with a shorter lifespan than say... the Aiel Wise Ones and the Kin.  Many of whom are older than any AS and none of which have the ageless appearance.  The custom of the Oath Rod was begun after the breaking to help convince the general public that they could be trusted.  So no pre-breaking AS (i.e. the Forsaken) would have done this or acquired the ageless face.

 

He means that Messi is using a Mask of Mirrors weave to give herself the Ageless look. It's just that when you take the Oaths for Aes Sedai, it takes like 2-3 years to achieve the ageless look without help. But seeing as Danelle is a relatively 'new' Aes Sedai, she may not have achieved the Ageless feature yet.

[bronnt]

Messi is almost certainly putting on an ageless face.

Any AS who's worn the shawl more than 2-3 years is ageless.

 

I believe this is incorrect.  I'm pretty sure that it has been mentioned that none of the Forsaken have the ageless AS face.  It has been stated that it is apparently the Oath Rod that causes the ageless face along with a shorter lifespan than say... the Aiel Wise Ones and the Kin.  Many of whom are older than any AS and none of which have the ageless appearance.  The custom of the Oath Rod was begun after the breaking to help convince the general public that they could be trusted.  So no pre-breaking AS (i.e. the Forsaken) would have done this or acquired the ageless face.

 

He means that Messi is using a Mask of Mirrors weave to give herself the Ageless look. It's just that when you take the Oaths for Aes Sedai, it takes like 2-3 years to achieve the ageless look without help. But seeing as Danelle is a relatively 'new' Aes Sedai, she may not have achieved the Ageless feature yet.

 

You've got it right.  It's not even relevant to this discussion whether Messi has the ageless face or not, if she's assumed the identity of a modern-day Aes Sedai, she's using mask of mirrors to disguise herself completely-which would mean she'd assume the ageless face if she didn't have it.  There's no need to rationalize this aspect.

 

Of course, we know for a fact that she doesn't have the face since Alviarin actually sees it in CoT.

[StefanR]

On top of that, Mesanna has been touched by somebody at some point and that would break the MoM and let anybody know she was a faker.

 

Chances are she just doesnt have the face

[Sharaman]

Messi is almost certainly putting on an ageless face.

Any AS who's worn the shawl more than 2-3 years is ageless.

 

I believe this is incorrect.  I'm pretty sure that it has been mentioned that none of the Forsaken have the ageless AS face.  It has been stated that it is apparently the Oath Rod that causes the ageless face along with a shorter lifespan than say... the Aiel Wise Ones and the Kin.  Many of whom are older than any AS and none of which have the ageless appearance.  The custom of the Oath Rod was begun after the breaking to help convince the general public that they could be trusted.  So no pre-breaking AS (i.e. the Forsaken) would have done this or acquired the ageless face.

 

He means that Messi is using a Mask of Mirrors weave to give herself the Ageless look. It's just that when you take the Oaths for Aes Sedai, it takes like 2-3 years to achieve the ageless look without help. But seeing as Danelle is a relatively 'new' Aes Sedai, she may not have achieved the Ageless feature yet.

 

You've got it right.  It's not even relevant to this discussion whether Messi has the ageless face or not, if she's assumed the identity of a modern-day Aes Sedai, she's using mask of mirrors to disguise herself completely-which would mean she'd assume the ageless face if she didn't have it.  There's no need to rationalize this aspect.

 

Of course, we know for a fact that she doesn't have the face since Alviarin actually sees it in CoT.

 

Indeed, she's using a Mask of Mirrors. I thought "putting on" was an unambiguous way of saying she's in disguise.

Even if she's imitating an AS, who has similar build and features, she would have to put on an ageless face if the AS in question has worn the shawl long enough to be ageless.

The loss of the ageless look when Shaidar strips the weave may be enough to confuse Alviarin in itself, which is why I mentioned Suian and Leane who are unrecognisable when they lose the ageless look (on being stilled).

The vague familiarity that Alvi notices makes it very likely that Messi is imitating somebody who looks similar.

On top of that, Mesanna has been touched by somebody at some point and that would break the MoM and let anybody know she was a faker.

 

Chances are she just doesnt have the face

 

If she's imitating somebody who has a similar build, she would just have to avoid getting into a pillow-friend relationship, since she would only use the MoM on her face. Sisters don't normally wander around touching each others' faces.

I've posted above why it's highly likely she is using an ageless MoM.

[NetSlider]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

[morkhon]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

Mesaana is most definitely posing as an AS, and she is most probably Danelle.

[StefanR]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

 

Except we gave Graendal who has spies in the WT, who know that Messanna IS an AS

[NetSlider]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

Mesaana is most definitely posing as an AS, and she is most probably Danelle.

 

Has there ever been something as straight forward before as "hey, one of the forsaken is AS let's find who she is?" besides the fact that it would be too simple and the fact there is no way to avoid oaths (even in the age of legends the same forsaken did not want to be "binded" because IT WORKS ON THEM TOO; and i know the whole discussion on "how to avoid the oaths"), why would she want to be AS? No benefit (it's not like an achievement for her) and yet all the risks (Seanchen, WC, BT, list goes on). Just think of motivations; there are none. She is inside WT but not as AS.

[NetSlider]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

 

Except we gave Graendal who has spies in the WT, who know that Messanna IS an AS

Really, Graendal as a source for facts? Besides, why would Messana want ANYONE to know who or what she is. Avoid telling that she is in WT might have been impossible, but what is a better way to mislead and have at least some cover than to say she's AS?

[morkhon]

Has there ever been something as straight forward before as "hey, one of the forsaken is AS let's find who she is?" besides the fact that it would be too simple and the fact there is no way to avoid oaths (even in the age of legends the same forsaken did not want to be "binded" because IT WORKS ON THEM TOO; and i know the whole discussion on "how to avoid the oaths"), why would she want to be AS? No benefit (it's not like an achievement for her) and yet all the risks (Seanchen, WC, BT, list goes on). Just think of motivations; there are none. She is inside WT but not as AS.

I feel I'm being trolled, so this is my last response to you. Mesaana is posing as an AS. That is not disputable.

[Sharaman]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

 

Except we gave Graendal who has spies in the WT, who know that Messanna IS an AS

Really, Graendal as a source for facts? Besides, why would Messana want ANYONE to know who or what she is. Avoid telling that she is in WT might have been impossible, but what is a better way to mislead and have at least some cover than to say she's AS?

 

Meta-proof: Both RJ and Brandon said her ID can be worked out after CoT.

If she is not AS, she must be a named servant/ novice/ resident of AS - somebody about whom we have some detail.

Otherwise, they would be expecting readers to say "Ah that random woman, who was washing clothes" and that would be unfair.

Messi must have been in the Tower for quite a long time (TDR onwards) since Verin met her twice before heading for the Two Rivers in TSR. If you go through the list of named non-AS in the Tower between TDR-CoT, there is not enough description of them to make a positive ID/ rule them out.

So she must be AS.

 

 

 

 

 

[NetSlider]

Has there ever been something as straight forward before as "hey, one of the forsaken is AS let's find who she is?" besides the fact that it would be too simple and the fact there is no way to avoid oaths (even in the age of legends the same forsaken did not want to be "binded" because IT WORKS ON THEM TOO; and i know the whole discussion on "how to avoid the oaths"), why would she want to be AS? No benefit (it's not like an achievement for her) and yet all the risks (Seanchen, WC, BT, list goes on). Just think of motivations; there are none. She is inside WT but not as AS.

I feel I'm being trolled, so this is my last response to you. Mesaana is posing as an AS. That is not disputable.

Ok, I understand that you have your mind already made up and that's perfectly ok. But IMPO I think she is not AS and therefore I think that because people are taking the fact that she is for granted we are not really scrutinizing all of the possible suspects. And furthermore, and with all due possible respect, the idea of Messana pretending to be AS being taken as a given is simply ridiculous. If Messana herself came out on the center stage with another character and said I am pretending to be AS I would not believe that. Unless we see her POV where she's pretending to AS I do not buy it.

[NetSlider]

Not to be the one breaking into the party here (and I'm sure this has been said in the past 50 pages) but once again, Mesaana is not pretending to be AS. If she is, than besides many things that do not apply to forsaken, an evolution is one more; fore anyone that dump should not live and pass their genes to the next generation. Putting it mildly, if Mesaana pretends to be an AS than she deserves Darwin Award. And before people go all crazy at this post like "...read the whole discussion..." and "...but this or that person wrote or said (including Verin's little book)..." just think for a moment. Being in WT does not mean being AS; there are a lot of people in there that would have access to more things than any sister of any Ahja would (like servants for example, especially when the ahjas were as divided). So, that being said, Messana IS NOT AS! Actually, you know what, I'm starting a poll on this!

 

Meant no offense so if came out too strong, sorry.

Cheers :)

 

Except we gave Graendal who has spies in the WT, who know that Messanna IS an AS

Really, Graendal as a source for facts? Besides, why would Messana want ANYONE to know who or what she is. Avoid telling that she is in WT might have been impossible, but what is a better way to mislead and have at least some cover than to say she's AS?

 

Meta-proof: Both RJ and Brandon said her ID can be worked out after CoT.

If she is not AS, she must be a named servant/ novice/ resident of AS - somebody about whom we have some detail.

Otherwise, they would be expecting readers to say "Ah that random woman, who was washing clothes" and that would be unfair.

Messi must have been in the Tower for quite a long time (TDR onwards) since Verin met her twice before heading for the Two Rivers in TSR. If you go through the list of named non-AS in the Tower between TDR-CoT, there is not enough description of them to make a positive ID/ rule them out.

So she must be AS.

But it was never said that she is AS. It would be just like RJ to lead the reader to think that you know what's up and then BOOM! - not even close. :)

 

[Sharaman]

There isn't enough information about non-AS to make it possible for us to either identify or eliminate them.

Since RJ and BS both say there is enough information to identify Mesaana she cannot be non-AS.

 

[NetSlider]

There isn't enough information about non-AS to make it possible for us to either identify or eliminate them.

Since RJ and BS both say there is enough information to identify Mesaana she cannot be non-AS.

 

I have to re-listen to CoT and on to answer this. Maybe this weekend I'll skim through it. Still, it just makes no sense for her to be one. What is the benefit? Especially considering the oaths and all. In any event, I'll come back to it again (and probably annoy you some more :)) sorry

[Sharaman]

There isn't enough information about non-AS to make it possible for us to either identify or eliminate them.

Since RJ and BS both say there is enough information to identify Mesaana she cannot be non-AS.

 

I have to re-listen to CoT and on to answer this. Maybe this weekend I'll skim through it. Still, it just makes no sense for her to be one. What is the benefit? Especially considering the oaths and all. In any event, I'll come back to it again (and probably annoy you some more :)) sorry

 

Have fun!

I've been through that exercise - from TDR to CoT because I wasn't sure about the servant business until the Graendal PoV.

It's easy enough, if tedious.

You have quite a bit of info about Mesaana - some physical descriptions, etc.

You don't have named servants who fit that picture at all.

Ditto for novices.

 

 

[yoniy0]

Netslider, I love that I can count on you to be persistent. Allow me to offer an answer to your question (though I completely agree with Sharaman that the point is moot): the WT is a threat to the Shadow. Someone needs to neutralize it. The way to do that is to infiltrate it and saw discord from within. Of course, Mesaana could have just operated through the BA, but since we agree that she did locate herself inside the Tower, let's agree to discount that possibility. She wants to be close enough to monitor the situation. Now, being AS allows her to act directly when necessary, and not being pestered by anyone otherwise. Those are not marginal gains in my view. Of course, you might disagree, as I do regarding your risk assessment of impersonating an AS (I'll just reiterate that there's no reason to assume she spends most of her time being bound by the OR, she could likely gain access to it when desired to retake/remove the Oaths).

 

Now, on a slightly different topic, nobody's claiming that Graendal's to be trusted, or that she's necessarily well informed. Mesaana could definitely attempt to mislead her. But if she's having Mesaana watched, she could hardly NOT be aware of Mesaana's alter-ego, now could she? And I can agree to no scenario under which she lies to herself in her own thought about having Mesaana watched. This isn't proof; she could be thinking she has the mystery figured out while in fact watching the wrong sister, but it is strong evidence. Combined with the other arguments we have, I find it convincing. Count me for a YES in your poll (I posted there as well).