Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[albright]

Not true. He could easily just appear with a group of Ayyad and explain what he's been doing, and that's that. Anyway, Demandred himself has barely been mentioned in more than just passing either.

 

I agree. To me the fact that Shara HAS been mentioned, many times, and some of their culture (tattooed channellers etc) has been explained points to the fact that they will play SOME role.

 

It doesn't make sense that only one nation would be mentioned but not included in the Last Battle (or the fighting up to it). Logically many nations would be hinted at but not included, or they would all be included since this *kind of* concerns them too, what with the unraveling of the pattern and complete annihilation, etc.

[wotjunkie]

Ok lets look at what we know about Demandred's personality.

 

* he turns to the Shadow because he despises the man he considers his inferior. (LoC,Prologue)

 

* Demandred captures two cities and feeds their entire population to the Trollocs because he felt they slighted him.

 

* Taim orders Kisman to kill Rand. Then Demandred orders Kisman to kill Rand. Finally, Moridin orders Kisman to kill Rand if he must, but first priority is to retrieve Rand's possessions. (WH,Ch22)

 

* TFoH,Prologue - Lanfear says that she suspects that either Moghedien or Demandred is trying to control Rand.

 

* LoC,Ch6 - Sammael thinks events to the south (of Arad Doman) have Demandred's mark on them.

 

* LoC,Ch51 - Lews Therin mutters that he will kill Demandred first, then Sammael. Demandred wanted Ilyena.

 

* ACoS,Ch20 - Sammael tells Graendal he did not kidnap Rand. Mesaana had a hand in it, maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well despite how it ended.

 

* WH,Ch13 - Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage have an agreement that they will not turn on each other until all the others have been eliminated.

 

(sourced from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ )

 

we also know Demandred prefers to use proxies and he has always envied LTT and believes himself better than LTT.

 

Sammaels comments about activities to the south, it is believed to be a reference to the presence of the Seanchan in Tarabon, the upheaval within the Children of the Light, or the Prophet Masema and his Dragonsworn.

 

although as i think Luckers has said Demandred probably has his fingers in many pies, and i tend to agree.

 

with his orders to kisman to kill rand, it appears he has had some influence in the BT, but with Taim and Demandred giving the same order i dont think Taim and Demandred are working together although Taim would fit well as the kind of Proxy Demandred would use.

 

Dem, semi and messana have an agreement not to move against each other until the rest of the forsaken are dead, which would imply he means to be the last man standing to face Rand at TG. To achive this he will need the resources to build an army that can match or bigger than Rands.

 

After TGS we know that Moridin is building up the trolloc and myrdrall forces.

 

Dems army needs to be of a distance away that Rand cant easily strike against him until Demandred is either ready or when the last battle is about to start.

 

as ive stated i suspect Demandred and Semi were working together, semi threw the seanchan empire into chaos and Demandred can start building his own rule bringing all the factions together under himself.

 

[sdelu]

 

as ive stated i suspect Demandred and Semi were working together, semi threw the seanchan empire into chaos and Demandred can start building his own rule bringing all the factions together under himself.

 

 

I don't think that's such a bad idea. After all, Tuon mentions something about "there hasn't been a King since..." or something along those lines (is that in tGS when she thinks the other man will try to usurp her/take the rule before her?). At the time I thought that was a bit of foreshadowing, that there will indeed be a king, but I'm not so sure. It seems like it would take a lot of time, and if after 12 books Demandred still needs more time to get his stuff together, that'll be disappointing.

 

In any event, I hope it's something cooler. I've had about enough of the Seanchan as is. I was ready to never see them again after TGH.

[Gleemans]

After reading the thread, I'm gonna have to say that I think Demandred is most likely in Murandy, although I am not ruling out Shara or the Black Tower.

 

However, just to add a couple more theories to the pool;

 

1 Demandred was lying about his position because Graendal was there. Admittedly, this seems unlikely because Moridin accepted it and he should know what is going on, but maybe Moridin agreed with the need to keep Demandred's plans secret and therefore "did not push"

 

2 Demandred is in command of all the Darkfriends. I know it used to be Baalzamon's job to give instructions to the Darkfriends before his death and now it is probably Moridins, but maybe while Moridin was "on leave" Demandred took up the command and that is where he know rules. This theory is a possibility because as Luckers pointed out Demandred never actually stated that he had an actual army, and it was Graendal who first theorized that he had an army that led us readers to beleive he had an army.

 

Just a couple more possibilities about Demandred.

[Mr Ares]

I think Demandred is Taim I always wanted to say that!

Because you have a death wish?

I don't think that there is a single reader out there that wouldn't think that Taim is Demanred if RJ didn't say many many times that he is not.

I can think of at least one: me. The reason is simple - the clues ruling it out were much easier for me to pick up than the supposed clues saying it was possible. I didn't pick up on the similarity of appearance, or not smiling, but I did notice Demandred not having a clue who Damer Flinn was at the Cleansing. So the first time I encountered this theory, the books had already shot it down.

I would love for it to turn out that he was.

He would need to be an amnesiac for it to work.

 

I disagree Sharaman: Brandon Sanderson has claimed that you can use the True Power in FM. So if Demandred was able to use the True Power from the DO then he would have a huge advantage being with the Borderlanders in FM waiting to meet Rand.

Of course, if he could use the TP is quite a big if, and even if he could most of the Chosen are very reluctant to use it.

 

as ive stated i suspect Demandred and Semi were working together, semi threw the seanchan empire into chaos and Demandred can start building his own rule bringing all the factions together under himself.

I don't think that's such a bad idea.

I do. I think the timeline is too short - Semi throws a continent into chaos at the beginning of one book, at the start of the next Demandred's rule is secure? He pacifies a fifty sided civil war in a couple of months? I think it's just asking a bit too much. It's much better for writing possible Seanchan reinforcements from the mainland out than writing them in (if it wasn't thrown into chaos, then after they get Traveling, they could pop home and teach it to all the damane, and significantly increase the size of their army). Also, why throw it into chaos, then take control? Why not just seize control from the Empress?

[bushleague]

I agree with the pie thing... not because they're delicious, but because Demandred has to be doing more than one thing with his time. 

 

Taim does seem like a good Proxy... I think that the BA sisters who released him told him that his task was to kill Rand, or something of the like and that the DO would give him power and authority beyond his wildest dreams.  And just before or after he met Rand, Dem had a chat with him saying that Rand was his and that Taim's new job was to recruit and train male channelers for the DO.  If Taim killed Rand, Dem would destroy Taim.  I also think it was Dem in WH? who talked to Taim where we get a better idea of Taim being a darkfriend.

[sdelu]

I do. I think the timeline is too short - Semi throws a continent into chaos at the beginning of one book, at the start of the next Demandred's rule is secure? He pacifies a fifty sided civil war in a couple of months? I think it's just asking a bit too much. It's much better for writing possible Seanchan reinforcements from the mainland out than writing them in (if it wasn't thrown into chaos, then after they get Traveling, they could pop home and teach it to all the damane, and significantly increase the size of their army). Also, why throw it into chaos, then take control? Why not just seize control from the Empress?

 

Yes, I agree with that. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see that while I don't think it's a bad idea (the fact that that could have actually been their plan), I don't agree because it would simply take too much time, and I also don't like it. It's as good a theory as many others out there, though.

 

And there could be reasons to throw the whole country into chaos before taking control, but it would be quite a stretch to argue for them. I don't think he's in Seandar simply because (aside from the logistics) that would be boring.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Re. Taim being Dark.

 

We have another explanation for Taim's order to kill Rand.  This was after the fiasco with Callandor outside Ebou Dar.  Dashiva had warned Rand about how wonky the Power was.  Rand had ignored the warning.  He had then nearly destroyed everyone, including his own forces.

 

Taim has a policy of humanely destroying any Asha'man who go mad.  Based on Dashiva's report about what had happened, it would be entirely logical for Taim to conclude that Rand had gone mad and had to be killed before he could destroy all chance of defeating the DO.

 

Taim himself shows up as Rand is quietly and humanely putting Morr out of his misery after Dashiva and Kisman's botched efforts to kill him.  This apparently causes him to reassess the report he got from Dashiva.  At any rate, he makes no attempt to kill Rand himself, despite the orders he'd given Kisman.

 

Taim is certainly unpleasant.  He may indeed be Dark.  But, nothing we have so far is conclusive.

 

My personal belief is that with Dashiva first discredited, and now dead, Demandred, via a cutout, is now the one manipulating Taim, but that Taim doesn't really understand that he's being played; that his actions are serving the DO.  

 

The fact that Kisman gets orders to kill Rand from Taim, Moridin, and Demandred at exactly the time he does may provide a clue to Demandred's 3rd Age persona.  Why would Demandred choose that particular time to issue such an order?

 

[havoc110]

 

 

Taim is certainly unpleasant.  He may indeed be Dark.  But, nothing we have so far is conclusive.

 

 

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule!"  isn't conclusive enough???

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

 

Taim is certainly unpleasant.  He may indeed be Dark.  But, nothing we have so far is conclusive.

 

 

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule!"  isn't conclusive enough???

 

That's a line from a children's rhyme.  It fits the nonsensical situation Taim finds himself in perfectly.  His use of it is not definitive.  In fact it may be a Red Herring.

[havoc110]

End a book on a red herring?  Really?  You think RJ was that desperate to misdirect us?

[Sentinel78]

Taim ordered Kisman to kill Rand, had one of the seals from the DO's prison when he met Rand, knows a LOT about channeling, apparently even some form of Compulsion from how he messed up Bashere's officers, Taim has a dark aura around him, Taim mysteriously showed up just in time to 'save' Rand from a grey man which was surely a set-up, I mean, arguing that Taim might not be a Darkfriend is REALLY overthinking this series.  RJ was not that evil.  Even the surprises in this series don't cheat that much.

[richnewton82]

.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not desperate.  Just having fun doing so.  

 

Understand that I'm not saying that Taim is definitely Light, I'm just saying that there isn't really evidence enough to convict him of being definitely Black.

 

Taim seems to be a lot like Cadsuane in many ways.  Very unpleasant, abrasive personality, very easy to dislike.  Unlike Cadsuane, we have not had any author explanation of the role he was intended to play, so it is just a little too easy to make the leap to "he's DARK!"

 

We have now started to have revealed characters who, because they seemed nice, or at least innocuous, we've taken as Light who are really Dark.  I expect that we will also find some who we've assumed to be Dark who really aren't.  Taim seems a good candidate for that.

 

When it comes to Taim, I'm still willing to RAFO.

[stormcrow420]

I'm sure this has been brought up but I'm pretty sure RJ unequivocably denied that Demandred was Taim.

 

I'm working on a Demandred = Sorilea theory.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not because I personally believe differently but, what Jordan actually said was:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>

 

Semantically, there is a difference between "is" and "posed as."  Or, taken another way there is a difference between "is not" and "has never posed as."

 

Given the wording of Jordan's response, I leave it to you how deeply you want to parse his answer.

 

When Demandred's 3rd Age identity is finally revealed, I can almost guarantee that people are going to need to go back and parse a few passages in the books very carefully and very deeply.

[wotjunkie]

I do. I think the timeline is too short - Semi throws a continent into chaos at the beginning of one book, at the start of the next Demandred's rule is secure? He pacifies a fifty sided civil war in a couple of months? I think it's just asking a bit too much. It's much better for writing possible Seanchan reinforcements from the mainland out than writing them in (if it wasn't thrown into chaos, then after they get Traveling, they could pop home and teach it to all the damane, and significantly increase the size of their army). Also, why throw it into chaos, then take control? Why not just seize control from the Empress?

 

Yes, I agree with that. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see that while I don't think it's a bad idea (the fact that that could have actually been their plan), I don't agree because it would simply take too much time, and I also don't like it. It's as good a theory as many others out there, though.

 

And there could be reasons to throw the whole country into chaos before taking control, but it would be quite a stretch to argue for them. I don't think he's in Seandar simply because (aside from the logistics) that would be boring.

 

1 word .... Compulsion  ;)

 

Demandred would only need to use it on the leaders of the larger factions, the smaller ones will toe the line quickly

[moffwolf]

I haven't read all the pages of this thread, but here is my present theory

 

Demandred is in the Borderlands. Maybe he controls all 4 countries, or at least Shienar, and possibly Arafel. I am hesitant to say that he has a direct control over all 4 countries, because as of TGS, Rodel Itularde has been in Saldea, working with Saldeans to protect the Border, and he didn't report anything suspicious to Rand (yet)

 

The reason why I think he is in the Borderlands starts with the rebellions that occurred in Shienar and Arafel. The apparent cause of the fighting there has been Rand (is he the DR or not). Also, the fighting had started about the time of the fall of the Stone of Tear, and by that time all of the Forsaken were out and about. In LoC we find the most mentions about the fighting, including the fact that it was abating. Of course, by the beginning of PoD, the fighting was done, since the 4 rulers had met. Also, sometime in book 4 or 5 I believe, Taim escapes the Aes Sedai, and Tenobia sends her best general to track him down and kill him. Then there is the whole meeting of the 4 rulers and their quest to find Rand. I could agree with them deciding to go and find Rand, but what I can't agree with is why did they have to take 200,000 men with them, including the other Great Captain of the Borderlands, Agelmar Jagad. So far we don't know the reasons why the 4 rulers are so desperate to find Rand, so all of this leads me to the conclusion that Demandred is in the Borderlands

 

Here is what I think he did: he was behind the rebellions, which helped get close to Kings Paitar and Easar. He also got close somehow to the other 2 rulers. And he used Compulsion on all 4 (not a whole lot) to make them abandon their duty and go search out Rand. I also think he helped Taim escape, then he convinced Queen Tenobia to send Bashere after Taim, thus weakening Saldea.

I have a feeling that when Rand finally meets with the 4 rulers, they will not be able to explain to him their reasons, and Rand or one if his Asha'man will discover the Compulsion on them, and...

 

If my theory is correct, then there is one prediction I would like to make. Demandred will soon discover that he has a thorn in his side: The Uncrowned King

 

 

 

This.  I'm surpised no one else has really followed this theory.  He is in the Borderlands, but not with the borderlands' armies.  From one of these strongholds, he would still be able to meddle in world affairs (prophet, taim, etc.).  This is where I thought he was; Corvinus here explained it much better than I would have. 

[analyticalkeys]

Demandred is chilling in his vacation house on one of the Sea Folk Islands, sipping a pina colada, and smoking some Two Rivers tabac, laughing at the rest of the world.

[cleantoe]

Did anybody else make that connection with Taim calling himself "leader"? Leader in German is...you know...Fuhrer. You know who else was called that? I dub him, Taimdolf!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Did anybody else make that connection with Taim calling himself "leader"? Leader in German is...you know...Fuhrer. You know who else was called that? I dub him, Taimdolf!

 

Taim's symbology is pretty SS.  Red and Black, lightning bolts.  He'd be more of a Mazrich Taimler.

[richnewton82]

haha nice..

[mike-cook]

Hey is there any chance that Demandred could be the "Lord of Chaos"?

[cuiv]

Hey is there any chance that Demandred could be the "Lord of Chaos"?

 

Rand is the Lord of Chaos.

[Mr Ares]

I'm sure this has been brought up but I'm pretty sure RJ unequivocably denied that Demandred was Taim.

 

I'm working on a Demandred = Sorilea theory.

RJ also said we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego on screen, and BS has said this is true as of the end of KoD - Demandred's 3rd Age persona has not been on screen.

 

I do. I think the timeline is too short - Semi throws a continent into chaos at the beginning of one book, at the start of the next Demandred's rule is secure? He pacifies a fifty sided civil war in a couple of months? I think it's just asking a bit too much. It's much better for writing possible Seanchan reinforcements from the mainland out than writing them in (if it wasn't thrown into chaos, then after they get Traveling, they could pop home and teach it to all the damane, and significantly increase the size of their army). Also, why throw it into chaos, then take control? Why not just seize control from the Empress?

 

Yes, I agree with that. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see that while I don't think it's a bad idea (the fact that that could have actually been their plan), I don't agree because it would simply take too much time, and I also don't like it. It's as good a theory as many others out there, though.

 

And there could be reasons to throw the whole country into chaos before taking control, but it would be quite a stretch to argue for them. I don't think he's in Seandar simply because (aside from the logistics) that would be boring.

1 word .... Compulsion  ;)

 

Demandred would only need to use it on the leaders of the larger factions, the smaller ones will toe the line quickly

He might need to beat them on the battlefield first. And if they went to ground, it could take years to root some of them out.Also, why kill the Empress, why not just Compel her? That's why it's not a very good theory - too many holes.

 

Did anybody else make that connection with Taim calling himself "leader"? Leader in German is...you know...Fuhrer. You know who else was called that?

Mussonlini?

 

Hey is there any chance that Demandred could be the "Lord of Chaos"?

No. Lord of Chaos appears to be simply an instruction to spread chaos, judging by Graendal's thoughts on the matter and Semi's use of the line.