Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Jong]

Where is Demandred:

 

Sahara or Isle of Madmen: No. Just because it would be too lame. This is a story. We know very little about the place there is no real connection between shara and the rest of the story. Its too late to introduce a new culture.

 

Borderlands armies: I originally liked this idea back a few books ago. I was like hey I bet Demandred is with them. It seems like a place he would fit. However, I don't see a forsaken going into Far Mading. And politically the situation controling and manipulating 4 rulers with their independent national agendas is simply too complicated for his tastes I think. They could be proxies if the AS are blakc and being controlled.

 

Manethren: Maybe. It has been a long while since we have received word from Emond's Field. If Demandred wants to do something a little personal to get in Rand's face, he could try enslaving his home town, for starters.

 

He is pulling strings: Definately. He is stiring up Chaos. Manipulating Maesma and other proxies. The borderlands in particualr with their kings and queens off on some wild goose chase would be vulnerable to forsaken manipulation. But it seems a little too smalltime for such a dynamic character to be focused on pulling strings behind the sceenes. His bio says that he worked as a governor but always lusted for battle. He is a warrior and I think he is probably looking for opportunities to take a more active role.

 

Building up armies, trollocs, dreadlords, etc...: File this under Proxies. I doubt he is just sitting around training soldiers. His Bio says he was just like Rand in the AOL. And Rand doesn't sit around training soldiers and Ashaman. He leads them into battle, but leaves the traing to his subordinates.

 

Seanchan: Possible.  News of civil war and chaos show that no one was in charge. You don't kill your proxy to create chaos if you have any plans to stick around and do anything constructive. So it seems that Semi had abandoned Seandar. The news of the civil war is at least a few months old. Demandred is a warrior. The Seanchan are the most formidable warrior race we see in the books so far. I think if I were Demandred I would want to go after the seanchan and their Damane.

 

[FortySix]

Borderlanders and Murandy seem to be only logical options. Now which of these could be considered to fit into "events in teh south" quote?

[wolfbro22]

I think we're going to find that everyone is right as far as Demandred theories go. The Prophet mentioned seeing Rand in person the night before the attack on Malden and said he was to kill Perrin. Most likely Demandred sowing chaos. Because he's so fond of proxies, he is probably juggling several things. I can see him manipulating Taim and teaching him how to test male channelers, as well as causing the Borderlanders to fight amongst themselves and leave their posts of protecting the borderlands as such a crucial time. He could possibly have been pulling Asunawa's strings with the whitecloaks and made the attack on Rand as "sammael" in KoD. I think RJ has been keeping Demandred very mysterious in order to introduce him in some grand manner and having him pulling stings in several places would be very impressive. I think he's going to play as large a role as Ishamael (ok maybe not that much, but pretty close) as far as Rand's development/destiny.

[MatrixM]

I can see him manipulating Taim and teaching him how to test male channelers

He didn't.

 

That said, who DID send those trollocs? Demandred? Semirhage? Graendal?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Osan'gar set them in motion.  Demandred gave them their final target.

[Mr Ares]

Shara's still the best bet. Civil war in Shara and they keep asking when the Dragon will break the world? How much influence would Demandred have to really exert to get them to want to take out the Rand? Just blame him for everything going wrong with the world, and point out he's a man who can channel (which the Sharans don't exactly treat too well).

How much influence would he need to exert? A lot. Shara was run de facto by the Ayyad. Lots and lots of rulers, very diffuse power, rather than a single ruler who could be replaced.

 

My guess is that Demandred engineered the chaos and regicide in Seanchan and then used that chaos to take control of the Seanchan homeland.

Semi committed the regicide, no reason to bring Demandred into it (she is not his lackey) and that chaos is unlikely to be sorted out any time soon. Attractive prize, perhaps. Poisoned chalice, though.

 

I think there are 2 logical places for demandred to be now, and thats either with the borderlanders or in murandy.

I agree. Introducing the Land of Madmen or Shara to the narrative at this late stage would be tricky, and unlike RJ, while Seanchan is in chaos and not conducive to his rule. Masema's rabble have been broken, Moridin is rallying forces in the BLight, making it rather redundant for Demandred to be doing the same thing. Murandy and the Borderlanders are the only "unaligned" factions left, so one of them is most likely. He might have his fingers in other pies, but I'm guessing one of those was the rule he was referring to. Now, if this series was written by Raymond Feist, I would guarantee an army of Sharans showing up, but not RJ.

 

Osan'gar set them in motion. Demandred gave them their final target.

Occam's Razor, Bob. Why involve two people when it only needs one? It wasn't Osan'gar.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Osan'gar set them in motion. Demandred gave them their final target.

Occam's Razor, Bob. Why involve two people when it only needs one? It wasn't Osan'gar.

 

It's all timeline related.  Aran'gar sicced Slayer on that room in Far Madding.  Graendal engineered the breakins in Cairhein and Bashere's tent.  Osan'gar rounded up Trollocs and sent them into the Ways, hoping to kill Rand before he could cleanse saidin, but wasn't able to locate Rand in time.  It wasn't until after the Cleansing that any of the baddies learned where Rand was.  By then the Trollocs were already underway.  Somebody stepped in and gave them their final destination.  Demandred was the only one in a position to do that.

[Mr Ares]

Osan'gar set them in motion. Demandred gave them their final target.

Occam's Razor, Bob. Why involve two people when it only needs one? It wasn't Osan'gar.

It's all timeline related. Aran'gar sicced Slayer on that room in Far Madding. Graendal engineered the breakins in Cairhein and Bashere's tent. Osan'gar rounded up Trollocs and sent them into the Ways, hoping to kill Rand before he could cleanse saidin, but wasn't able to locate Rand in time. It wasn't until after the Cleansing that any of the baddies learned where Rand was. By then the Trollocs were already underway. Somebody stepped in and gave them their final destination. Demandred was the only one in a position to do that.

Doesn't explain why it couldn't have been Demandred, or whoever, all along? Why bring Osan'gar into it in the first place? There really is no reason.

[grolm]

Didn't RJ tell someone that Shaara would remain offscreen? I seem to remember that. If so it would be horrible for the series for Demandred to be there, plus I just dont see how he can say his rule is secure if there is chaos all around. I'll be very disappointed with the plotting in the series if Demandred winds up in Shaara. As for the Isle of Madmen, it sounds like one of those places authors create on their world maps that we never get to see, and that never play any role in the series, but there was a speck of land there and it needed a name.

 

Rmember people, we were told we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego, so ANY known character we might suspect is WRONG if we've seen them on screen.

 

I think Demandred is either in the Black Tower, posing as a male channeler, but really calling the shots and giving Taim his orders. One reason not to think so was that Dashiva was impersonated by one of the 'gars, and the Forsaken are very territorial. That Taim is a bad boy Darkfriend at this point is a solid prediction, especially given his quote to the Red Ajah AS who arrive to bond Ashaman. Only darkfriends have said Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

More likely to me is that he is with the Borderlanders, or in the borderlands. If he's up north, he's in a terrific strategic position, and he's been proxying away so well that all the leaders of those nations are off on a while Dargon chase, trying to find Rand. Demandred could be with the Borderlander army as an advisor pulling strings, but he could be the guy some Borderland ruler left in charge while he's out of the country.

[deathgate]

Rmember people, we were told we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego, so ANY known character we might suspect is WRONG if we've seen them on screen.

 

That was true when RJ said it. When exactly was that because he has likely shown up since then.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Doesn't explain why it couldn't have been Demandred, or whoever, all along? Why bring Osan'gar into it in the first place? There really is no reason.

 

Demandred wasn't concerned about Rand cleansing saidin.  Osan'gar was scared out of his tree.

 

The Trollocs showed up at the Manor too soon after Rand was finally tracked down to have come all the way from the Blight.  They had to have been started earlier.  Aginor created the Trollocs.  Who else would turn to them to solve Osan'gar's problem for him?

[grolm]

I assumed Aran'gar sent the Trollocs, posing as Sammael.

 

In her POV scene with the Forsaken gathered at the start of KOD, she thought that someone had started playing her game with Sammy, and the chapter ended with her thinking that Moridin was going to be disappointed about Rand, implying she was going to have him killed by the attack she was launching. Might have happened too if Logain hadn't arrived just in time.

 

For the Forsaken whom supposedly hated LTT the most, Demandred seems to have done the least to target him.

[imperium3]

For the Forsaken whom supposedly hated LTT the most, Demandred seems to have done the least to target him.

 

Note that all the OTHER Forsaken who targeted Rand directly, wound up dead. Seems Demandred's cleverer than that.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Just re-read Graendal's section in the Prologue, and there's no way Demmy is in the blight.

 

First, Demmy arrives with Messy at the meeting in the Blight.  While far from conclusive, this is an indication that Demmy at the least isn't stationed in this particular fortress in the Blight.

 

Second, Graendal knows that Moridin is putting things together in the Blight.  There's no reason for her not to know that Demmy is in the Blight if that's where he has been hanging out.  For one thing, there's no reason for Demmy to hide or conceal his identity if he's just marshaling Trollocs in the Blight.  But despite Graendal's clearly intensive efforts to find out where he is, she can't find him.  That speaks to him being in an obscure area, far out of Graendal's range of contacts.

 

Third, as has been mentioned, Demmy would be doubling up Moridin's duties in the Blight.

 

Fourth, the DO is apparently pleased with Demmy's efforts at sowing chaos at the end of one of the books (LOC?).  Mustering up Trollocs into an army doesn't equal sowing chaos.

 

Fifth, when Demmy says "My rule is secure," Graendal immediately thinks, "Demmy apparently had a throne and armies."  While Graendal's thoughts aren't conclusive, this is in the midst of a section that's all about how smart she is and how good she is at gathering information (as she has about all the other surviving Forsaken.)  Having her draw the wrong conclusion here would be anti-RJ-esque, and quite simply mean-spirited by the author.  Now, the overt thoughts about Demmy being with the Borderlander armies may well be a red herring, but more subtle hints typically aren't.  Unless the Trollocs have set up a throne somewhere, this bit rules out the Blight.

 

Sixth, building up Trolloc armies is at odds with Demmy's alleged affinity for dealing with proxies.

 

Seventh, he would be the only FS to date (apart from Ishy) not to have assumed a false identity and gone to work in the world.  Again, not conclusive, but very strong evidence that he's not puttering around in the Blight.

 

Eighth, BrS/RJ is building up the mystery as to Demmy's whereabouts in the Graendal section, and has been to some extent for the entire series.  It would be pretty (crappy) of him to say, "Surprise!  He's been in the Blight all along!" at the very end here.

 

 

While all these points contribute, #2 should be the clincher.  Demmy is clearly the hardest to identify and the most under-the-radar of the FS still alive.  If he's working in the Blight there's no reason for him to be hiding it, and Graendal would have figued it out long ago.  She has spies everywhere, AD is relatively close to the Blight, and she has enough connections there to figure out what Moridin is doing.  Demmy may not be in Shara, but he sure ain't in the Blight.

 

I know it's an exercise in futility to try to dissuade someone from their pet theory, but we should logically be able to move past the Blight as Demmy's hiding place.

[MatrixM]

Doesn't explain why it couldn't have been Demandred, or whoever, all along? Why bring Osan'gar into it in the first place? There really is no reason.

 

Demandred wasn't concerned about Rand cleansing saidin.  Osan'gar was scared out of his tree.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I assumed Aran'gar sent the Trollocs, posing as Sammael.

 

In her POV scene with the Forsaken gathered at the start of KOD, she thought that someone had started playing her game with Sammy, and the chapter ended with her thinking that Moridin was going to be disappointed about Rand, implying she was going to have him killed by the attack she was launching. Might have happened too if Logain hadn't arrived just in time.

 

For the Forsaken whom supposedly hated LTT the most, Demandred seems to have done the least to target him.

 

Three events flow out of that Forsaken meeting.  Three Forsaken grow upset at learning that Rand intends to Cleanse saidin.

 

Slayer acquires a heavily disguised patron and makes an attempt on Rand's life in Far Madding.  That is most likely Aran'gar.

Thieves with forged authorizations attempt to ransack Dobraine's rooms and Bashere's tent looking for artifacts.  That's definitely Graendal.

That leaves the Trollocs that attack the Manor.  That's Osan'gar's plot.

[morkhon]

I have a really hard time looking at the 'Lord of Chaos' references made by both Demandred and Taim and not seeing a clear connection. I just can't envision that turning out to be some insane coincidence. There has to be some interaction between those two.

[Mr Ares]

Doesn't explain why it couldn't have been Demandred, or whoever, all along? Why bring Osan'gar into it in the first place? There really is no reason.

Demandred wasn't concerned about Rand cleansing saidin. Osan'gar was scared out of his tree.

 

The Trollocs showed up at the Manor too soon after Rand was finally tracked down to have come all the way from the Blight. They had to have been started earlier. Aginor created the Trollocs. Who else would turn to them to solve Osan'gar's problem for him?

So really, they must have been sent by Osan'gar because they must have been, and you add Demandred afterwards just because you have to have someone. There is no reason to have two people involved. No reason why Demandred should be involved at all, and it can't be Osan'gar.

 

I assumed Aran'gar sent the Trollocs, posing as Sammael.

 

In her POV scene with the Forsaken gathered at the start of KOD, she thought that someone had started playing her game with Sammy, and the chapter ended with her thinking that Moridin was going to be disappointed about Rand, implying she was going to have him killed by the attack she was launching. Might have happened too if Logain hadn't arrived just in time.

 

For the Forsaken whom supposedly hated LTT the most, Demandred seems to have done the least to target him.

We can rule out Aran'gar with absolute certainty. She has no idea who sent the Trollocs, and questions whether it might have been Demandred, or really Sammael.

 

Doesn't explain why it couldn't have been Demandred, or whoever, all along? Why bring Osan'gar into it in the first place? There really is no reason.

Demandred wasn't concerned about Rand cleansing saidin.  Osan'gar was scared out of his tree.

What in the world are you talking about?

Bob alone knows that. I don't know what series he read, but I'd like to read it myself some day.

 

I have a really hard time looking at the 'Lord of Chaos' references made by both Demandred and Taim and not seeing a clear connection. I just can't envision that turning out to be some insane coincidence. There has to be some interaction between those two.

Well, Let the Lord of Chaos rule was an order from Shai'tan, passed to Demandred, then subsequently to Mesaana, Semirhage and Graendal, and they have said it in the presence of others.True, both Demandred and Taim are in the same chain, but doesn't imply the one heard it from the other direct.

[Bob T Dwarf]

So really, they must have been sent by Osan'gar because they must have been, and you add Demandred afterwards just because you have to have someone. There is no reason to have two people involved. No reason why Demandred should be involved at all, and it can't be Osan'gar.

 

OK, Mr Know-it-all, if Demandred wasn't involved, and it can't be Osan'gar, then who was it?

[elmis]

The Trollock attack might have been Taim.

 

Two birds with one stone - if it worked.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Trollock attack might have been Taim.

 

Two birds with one stone - if it worked.

 

Where's any evidence for that?  When was Taim given a Chosen Mark that would allow him to command Myrrdraal?  When and how did he learn where Rand was?

[Worm]

I think some people may have missed the important thing that was posted earlier. All Demandred actually said was that his rule was secure and heis gathering for war, it was Graendals POV that assumed he had a throne and army.(and as so often happens peoples opinions are completely wrong)

 

We have already gone through lists of the kings/leaders in every country and most people say he is either in Murandy, Shara or the Borderland army.

As loads of people have said before me I don't think he is controlling Shara because to introduce them properly in a Robert Jordan sort of way we would need alot more information about their culture. The only thing the Sharans could do this late on is arrive to bolster the ranks of the DO. But it would be a bit lame considering the same thing could be acheived by saying there were a few million more trollocs than we knew about in the Blight. It would also present way too many problems such as wouldn't the Sharans realise when they attacked the Randland armies along with the trolloc hordes that they were serving the DO?

 

The reason I don't believe Demandred is with the Borderlanders is because it doesn't fit what little we know of his character. If it was Sammael who was still alive I might believe he would set a trap for rand in Far Madding where he could defeat Rand in a fair duel and repay him for the face scar but why on earth should Demandred do that? Sure he hates Rand but I doubt he would risk himself and he is not allowed to kill Rand (The DO forbids it for some reason). Now I'm not saying the forsaken aren't behind both of these things but I do not believe Demandred is in charge simply because it wouldn't work (how would he get the borderlanders to attack anyone else anyway? Tell them the Trollocs are in disguise?

 

As for the Murandy army it is a possibility but I'm not offering my opinion in that because we haven't been told much about them. It seems the most likely to me simply because of the process of elimination.

 

If we assume that my reasoning is correct and that he isn't in the Black tower (Demandred is Taim!!!!!) or in the Blight (which is clearlly not true because we all know that Narg is commanding the Trolloc armies because "Narg smart") then we should be looking for different ways to interpret Demandred saying:

"My rule is secure, I gather for war. We will be ready"

I can't think of any other meaning to this sentence other than he is ruling somewhere (probably using a proxy) and preparing for war but someone might be able to.

[Rand Skywalker]

There is a lot of potential to deliver something awesome with Demandred.  People often gripe about the forsaken being foolish/weak/unimpressive, and D could turn that around, and show how some forsaken may back up the reputation.  I think everyone (or at least most) hope for Demandred to be a major force for the bad guys, one who seriously messes up the good guys.  I would like to see some of the good guys take one for the team (I think it makes for a better story) and D could well be the means to that.

[albright]

When was Taim given a Chosen Mark that would allow him to command Myrrdraal?  When and how did he learn where Rand was?

 

How did anyone on the shadow side learn where Rand was for that matter?

 

The trollocs showed up shortly after Logain, I'm guessing Rand's location was leaked by someone near Logain, to someone in the Black Tower. This points to another Taim / Demandred connection although sending thousands of trollocs in a blind rush at Rand doesn't seem like General Demandred's style...(though it seems it would have worked if Rand hadn't remembered those weaves)

[saidarisnowtainted]

I'm not sold on the borderlanders idea, but...

 

Not keen on the idea that he would want Rand in Far Madding to fight him on even terms.  But it got me thinking...what could he do if Rand couldnt channel?

 

I was thinking about how (I think it was Nyn's POV) there was mention around the time about ways to circumvent the guardian with a well.

 

Now, if Camp Borderlanders with the 13 AS and/or Demandred have a well, perhaps they could use it to travel with Rand to the DO's "crib of doom" to turn him?

 

Semmy screwed up her job to take Rand to Evilopolis.  Werent the baddy's still interested in doing this, though?

 

But we dont know when the Borderboys decided to go to Guardianville.  BUT, maybe DemanHead saw an opportunity there anyway?

 

Maybe this provides a clue that he's with the "Traveling Show of Duty Derelicters"?

 

Thoughts?