Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[matttoller]

Oh man I really am starting to take that Borderland theory to heart more than I was.  It would serve so well and would be a great story plot in my opinion if the Bashere working for Demandred theory is actually correct.  I mean what if none of this crap with the Bashere family is a coincidence and they are all working for the great Demandred.  Faile sure is quick to kill some folks just look out how she straight executed Masema. Yes he deserved it and all but what if we are looking at that wrong and she was just taking out a fellow proxy that was no longer useful so Demandred said kill that guy.  So you the most trusted persons in a fashion to 2 of the 3 ta'varen leaving Mat as the odd man out without DF's  in his good graces unless we count Noal who is not a DF willingly but totally got mindraped by Ishy.  So if that holds that somehow Noal is Jain (which seems obvious) all 3 have a close proxy to them.  This theory of course entails that Faile, Davrem, and Noal are all Forsaken proxies which is damn brilliant.  I don't doubt that Faile loves Perrin or that Davrem respects all Rand has been through but you can do that and still be evil when the order comes down.  WOW I almost hope I am right.  I have a feeling the Daveram Bashere being a proxy is the best true possibility which leads me to believe that he is lying in saying that he pledged to Rand without consent from Tenobia, which would make Tenobia the ruler Demandred controls, and therefore the entire borderlander army, via Saldea is where Demandred is.  Which means he is one of them close enough to be in probably Tenobia's ear.  The rest of the army I don't believe are DF's but just people following the leader.  Sorry this is so lengthy but I just started and couldn't stop till it was all out of me. 

 

 

I've also been considering the theory that Bashere is a Dark Friend or at least under the control of one.  It would be a fantastic plot twist.  Rand often mentions that Bashere is one of the only people he can trust, so his betrayal would be a huge deal.  It also could be what causes Perrin to betray Rand, which I believe one of the dreams, prophecies, etc mentioned in the early books.  If Bashere turns against Rand, Faile will want to follow and Perrin will have to choose between his wife and his friend.  This seems very likely to me. 

[Morsmordre]

Well, I also consider Bashere somehow turning on Rand (I don't know how exactly) because Min says to Rand that it will take him an entire year to recover from the loss of Bashere and two years if he lost Dobrine. She didn't say that Bashere could die or turn on Rand, only that Rand could lose Bashere :/ I hope he's not a DF, although some of his actions appear as he would have no regrets if Rand gets killed :/

[albino_dog]

I know this has been answered in a few places probably, but why was Demandred being Logain ruled out?

 

(I'm only asking because it was said in the last book that Demandred would only laugh once he'd killed the Dragon. And there was a vision that involved Logain laughing maniacally over Rand's corpse that wasn't really Rand's corpse. Plus killing the Dragon would be the very definition of glory for Demandred, and Min saw the aura of glory around Loghain, did she not?)

 

I think I might have asked the question somewhere in the past and I do remember receiving some concrete proof that ruled out that possibility. Yet now I can't recall it. So please refresh my memory and put an end to my suspicions.

[Crael123]

I am reeeeeeaaaallly doubtful that bashere is a darkfriend. he was introduced a very long time ago and hes been with rand and been his closest military adviser and friend. but if he was that would be HUGE. HUGE. I would be shocked.

[Sharaman]

I know this has been answered in a few places probably, but why was Demandred being Logain ruled out?

 

(I'm only asking because it was said in the last book that Demandred would only laugh once he'd killed the Dragon. And there was a vision that involved Logain laughing maniacally over Rand's corpse that wasn't really Rand's corpse. Plus killing the Dragon would be the very definition of glory for Demandred, and Min saw the aura of glory around Loghain, did she not?)

 

I think I might have asked the question somewhere in the past and I do remember receiving some concrete proof that ruled out that possibility. Yet now I can't recall it. So please refresh my memory and put an end to my suspicions.

 

Several strong reasons to eliminate Logain=Dem.

The simplest to consider is timelines

1) Logain was caught and gentled before the Chosen were free (EotW)

2) Logain is gentled through much of LoC. Demandred is wandering around doing lots of things by that stage before Logain is healed. He is shielded after he is healed, until Egwene arranges for him to escape.

Also

3) Logain doesn't look like Demandred (no-hook nose, long hair) and he's can't be holding Mask of Mirrors once he's gentled.

4) Halima wants to kill him because he's the only other Saidin channeler in Salidar - unlikely that Halima would be that determined to kill another Chosen and wouldn't recognise him either. 

 

Apart from that, RJ's statement that we hadn't seen Dem's secret ID before KoD at least.

 

 

[metaphor]

well Min saw something dark about him.

And after the attack to Deira he talked about meeting some people who had tried to approach him.

They could have been the Seanchan, bu the attack was committed by darkfriends.

I don't know, but I wouldn't exclude that he's a darkfriend.

[Nethran Thaimal]

As for the Borderlands theory..  The Borderlanders all know they need Rand to fight and have any hope of winning in the Last Battle.  He hadn't yet come to them and they knew it was getting close.  They have experienced and noteworthy military strategists with them, and they probably had a good idea of what a quiet Blight meant(that the Shadow was gathering it's army for the Last Battle).  Why would they not leave to try to force a meeting with Rand?  He needs them and they need him.  Also, after having heard the assortment of rumors about what Rand has been doing, why would they not meet him in a place where they have relative safety from his channeling?  The Aes Sedai with them would have wanted to be safe from the possibility he could catch them, and I'm sure the monarchs themselves would want to feel safe.  Particularly if he were to come with an entourage of Asha'man.

 

I don't think there's anything going on with them other than that.

 

As for Bashere...  His dealings with Faile make me think that he's not a Darkfriend.

 

Demandred was the second best General for the Light before he went over to the Shadow, so I doubt he'd want to try his luck with a broken country with no great military in Murandy and have to rely on one of Rand's armies(the Band) to build up his own.  He's got nothing to do with Ghealdan(as far as Alliandre is concerned), and it'd be hard to prepare for war by being Masema's Dragon visions after Masema's been killed and his army torn to shreds by the Aiel.  He's not in Illian, he's not Darlin, most likely, and that would pretty much rule him out of being involved in Tear.  If we haven't seen his proxy yet, then that pretty much rules out the Seanchan, too.  We've seen the Seanchan's highest Generals and Blood, I think.  That in itself rules out Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara.

 

So I don't know where he could be. :D

 

Although, though I know it's beating a dead horse to bring it up again, since it's been brought up a LOT..

 

 

**Q: "Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?"

 

A: "No." (I asked twice to make sure.)

 

[Michael Martin, Dayton OH signing]**

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

 

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

 

[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]**

----------------------------------------------------------

 

**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"

 

A: (Disgusted) "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

**Question:

 

At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

 

~Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim.~ All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. **

 

 

That last quote makes me think Taim is Demandred.  Just not in the way people think.  The person we know as Taim has never claimed to be Taim.  People have assumed he is, and he's never argued it, but he's never said "I'm Mazrim Taim" either.  Bashere didn't recognize him as Taim, Lew Therin hated him on sight, and he hates being 2nd to Rand.  Everyone knows these things, and they all point to Demandred.  "Taim" has gathered a ton of Darkfriends Asha'man into his inner circle.  That's an army to smash armies. That's preparing for war.  It makes him the most powerful Darkfriend in the land, save Moridin who he must take orders from.

 

People dismiss the theory because of what's been said by RJ and friends, but they never discredit the fact that Taim could be dead and Demandred letting people think what they may while never claiming the name...he's not posing as the man just because people think they are one and the same.  I just went to go check LoC and when he's first introduced, Bashere's man says "There's a Man at the gates.  He says... It is Mazrim Taim, my Lord." He doesn't even say the man called himself Taim.

 

I haven't given up on the theory.  The only real thing I have seen that discredits it is him not recognizing Damer Flinn on sight.

 

Once again, I know people probably are annoyed at me for bringing this up again, but it's the only thing I can really honestly say I believe as far as Demandred's whereabout go.

 

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

LTT doesn't recognise him either. Doesn't that count along with his failure to recognise Flinn?

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

He never says "OMG it's Demandred!" but his hatred and desire to kill was nigh on instantaneous, and is much more present than with other male channelers.  Taim makes him rant like no other.

[Nightstrike]

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

 

RJ: No, that is totally bogus.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

 

Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

RJ: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Q: Have we yet seen the alter-ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?

 

A: NO. (I asked twice to make sure.)

 

 

Edit: Sorry, didn't realize this had just been posted.

 

 

[Sharaman]

LTT knows the faces and modus operandi of each and everyone of the Chosen. That's why he's puzzled when he meets Moridin because he doesn't recognise the resurrected body but he knows the TP must have been used.

Taim (or whoever was acting as Taim in your theory) wasn't using a Mask of Mirrors when they first met -- there were four Saldaeans touching him with their swords.

Rand keeps meeting Taim on and off - the last time I think was after the Carhein attack in TPoD. It's difficult to imagine that by then, with a full-blown LTT persona, he wouldn't recognise him at all.

Anyway, how do you get past Demandred not recognising the very first Ashaman that Taim tested and one of the best channelers in the BT? Or for that matter, Flinn wouldn't recognise his teacher?

 

 

[Morsmordre]

I like the thing with the Mask of Mirrors. It is the best evidence that Taim is not Demandred. I've never liked the idea of Taim being Demandred (or vice versa) but this is one good argument against the theory.

 

Once, I thought it was Pevin, the man who was carrying Rand's flag, because he is very silent.

[BladeDancer]

That last quote makes me think Taim is Demandred.  Just not in the way people think.  The person we know as Taim has never claimed to be Taim.  People have assumed he is, and he's never argued it, but he's never said "I'm Mazrim Taim" either.  Bashere didn't recognize him as Taim, Lew Therin hated him on sight, and he hates being 2nd to Rand.  Everyone knows these things, and they all point to Demandred.  "Taim" has gathered a ton of Darkfriends Asha'man into his inner circle.  That's an army to smash armies. That's preparing for war.  It makes him the most powerful Darkfriend in the land, save Moridin who he must take orders from.

 

People dismiss the theory because of what's been said by RJ and friends, but they never discredit the fact that Taim could be dead and Demandred letting people think what they may while never claiming the name...he's not posing as the man just because people think they are one and the same.  I just went to go check LoC and when he's first introduced, Bashere's man says "There's a Man at the gates.  He says... It is Mazrim Taim, my Lord." He doesn't even say the man called himself Taim.

 

I haven't given up on the theory.  The only real thing I have seen that discredits it is him not recognizing Damer Flinn on sight.

 

Once again, I know people probably are annoyed at me for bringing this up again, but it's the only thing I can really honestly say I believe as far as Demandred's whereabout go.

 

 

 

 

I thought that was the whole Taimendred Theory though. Mazrim Taim at the Black Tower is Demandred impersonating the real Taim. All the things you claim point to Demandred being Taim were the entire basis for the Taimendred Theory in the first place. RJ says (in your own post) that Demandred has not posed as Mazrim Taim. The Taimendred Theory was not that Mazrim Taim the False Dragon was actually Demandred - it was that Demandred kidnapped/killed and is impersonating the real Taim.

 

The Taimendred Theory has been specifically ruled out by RJ.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Aye, I hear what you're saying, but the point of my post was to say that he never claims to be Taim. That he's not impersonating him, because he never says he's Taim, he's just letting people think what they will.  That would make it so RJ could say what he did withot lying.  All of what was said rejecting it could have been said without lying.  Taim is dead, therefore he isn't Demandred.  Demandred isn't trying to impersonate Taim, therefore Taim isn't his proxy.

 

I don't think anything will be inarguably agreed upon until we find out for sure.  This is just the most likely in my eyes.

[BladeDancer]

Aye, I hear what you're saying, but the point of my post was to say that he never claims to be Taim. That he's not impersonating him, because he never says he's Taim, he's just letting people think what they will.  That would make it so RJ could say what he did withot lying.  All of what was said rejecting it could have been said without lying.  Taim is dead, therefore he isn't Demandred.  Demandred isn't trying to impersonate Taim, therefore Taim isn't his proxy.

 

I don't think anything will be inarguably agreed upon until we find out for sure.  This is just the most likely in my eyes.

 

It seems a stretch to me. Taim would have had to identify himself to the Palace Guards in Caemlyn. I doubt he would have played 20 questions with them about his identity and they only thought he was Mazrim Taim because they ran out of questions!  ;D

 

So although Taim does not specifically state who he is so that he can be quoted, he must have done off-scene in order to gain access to Rand. I doubt Demandred just popped over to Caemlyn on the off-chance that the guards thought he looked like someone important enough to allow in the Palace. In earlier books, Demandred impersonating Taim seems very likely hence the popularity of the Taimendred Theory. But subsequent developments such as the battle at the Cleansing and the renegade Darkfriend Asha'man POV in Far Madding (plus the denials by RJ) would seem to indicate that this was nothing but a Red Herring. It is entirely possible that Demandred is impersonating an Asha'man who is part of Taim's inner circle at the Black Tower, so that he can monitor and influence Taim and the Black Tower. I speculate on this because the Black Tower is such a powerful organisation that it seems doubtful to me that the Forsaken would not try and infiltrate and corrupt it.

[WolfTwins]

  I apologize, this is off topic.

 

  About Taim it's said that he's not displaying signs of male channelers crazyness. I have the sensation that the crazyness isn't described enough and Taim have some sort of 'Napoleon complex'.

 

  What are the symptoms of channeler crazyness if Taim is perceveid as sane?

 

[SimpleJo]

  I apologize, this is off topic.

 

  About Taim it's said that he's not displaying signs of male channelers crazyness. I have the sensation that the crazyness isn't described enough and Taim have some sort of 'Napoleon complex'.

 

  What are the symptoms of channeler crazyness if Taim is perceveid as sane?

 

There are no cut and dried symptoms.  Insanity is different in each person.  It would be the same for taint induced insanity.  Either way Taim could quite easily be insane (the way he carries himself as being tightly wound, the half grin, the air of being sardonic, his eyes being augers (basically ready to explode).

 

My opinion is that he is darkfriend through and through possibly a step below the Forsaken, though that is doubtful.  On the otherhand there is a way to fight the insanity the taint causes through sheer willpower and it could be that Taim is especially good at it.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Taim appears to be in his 30's, doesn't he?  That means that he's had a long time with the taint if he's not protected by the Dark One.  I doubt he'd fail to show sings of insanity this late into the game.  In fact, via Egwene's test for Accepted, would he not be at the age or beyond where he starts to rot?  Moreover...slowing. How old would he be if he was a wilder, considering he uses the power all the time and is nearly as strong as Rand?

[Sharaman]

  I apologize, this is off topic.

 

  About Taim it's said that he's not displaying signs of male channelers crazyness. I have the sensation that the crazyness isn't described enough and Taim have some sort of 'Napoleon complex'.

 

  What are the symptoms of channeler crazyness if Taim is perceveid as sane?

 

 

Perrin can smell insanity - emotions flicker and change amazingly rapidly.

He sees that with Rand (CoS) and also with Massema (CoT/ KoD).

Doesn't see it with Taim (CoS).

RJ retconned that description - said Rand thought he was older than he was when they met in LoC because of the hard living that Taim had been subjected to while being chased by Bashere's boys. Taim is actually late 20s - early 30 max.

But he has been channeling for quite a while - so had Logain incidentally. About 7-8 years at least. 

Neither shows overt signs of lunacy.

 

[BladeDancer]

We don't really know how long the taint takes to render Male channellers insane. It depends on how much Channelling you do.

 

Taim does seem old though for a Channeller - the best way to hold off the taint is to become a Darkfriend. Taim may have chosen this route merely for self preservation.

[Sharaman]

Aye, I hear what you're saying, but the point of my post was to say that he never claims to be Taim. That he's not impersonating him, because he never says he's Taim, he's just letting people think what they will.  That would make it so RJ could say what he did withot lying.  All of what was said rejecting it could have been said without lying.  Taim is dead, therefore he isn't Demandred.  Demandred isn't trying to impersonate Taim, therefore Taim isn't his proxy.

 

I don't think anything will be inarguably agreed upon until we find out for sure.  This is just the most likely in my eyes.

 

It seems a stretch to me. Taim would have had to identify himself to the Palace Guards in Caemlyn. I doubt he would have played 20 questions with them about his identity and they only thought he was Mazrim Taim because they ran out of questions!  ;D

 

So although Taim does not specifically state who he is so that he can be quoted, he must have done off-scene in order to gain access to Rand. I doubt Demandred just popped over to Caemlyn on the off-chance that the guards thought he looked like someone important enough to allow in the Palace. In earlier books, Demandred impersonating Taim seems very likely hence the popularity of the Taimendred Theory. But subsequent developments such as the battle at the Cleansing and the renegade Darkfriend Asha'man POV in Far Madding (plus the denials by RJ) would seem to indicate that this was nothing but a Red Herring. It is entirely possible that Demandred is impersonating an Asha'man who is part of Taim's inner circle at the Black Tower, so that he can monitor and influence Taim and the Black Tower. I speculate on this because the Black Tower is such a powerful organisation that it seems doubtful to me that the Forsaken would not try and infiltrate and corrupt it.

 

I think the Chosen did indeed infiltrate the BT - there was this guy who called himself Dashiva. Which leads one to another question - would two Chosen get involved with the same power centre? That doesn't seem their modus operandi; everywhere else they've split up power centres one-to-one. Perhaps this is to avoid duplication of effort or more likely, they are too suspicious of each other to risk coming into direct conflict.

Anyhow, if you've got a Taim= Demandred theory and you've discounted RJ's statements, who are we to dissuade you?

 

[BladeDancer]

Aye, I hear what you're saying, but the point of my post was to say that he never claims to be Taim. That he's not impersonating him, because he never says he's Taim, he's just letting people think what they will.  That would make it so RJ could say what he did withot lying.  All of what was said rejecting it could have been said without lying.  Taim is dead, therefore he isn't Demandred.  Demandred isn't trying to impersonate Taim, therefore Taim isn't his proxy.

 

I don't think anything will be inarguably agreed upon until we find out for sure.  This is just the most likely in my eyes.

 

It seems a stretch to me. Taim would have had to identify himself to the Palace Guards in Caemlyn. I doubt he would have played 20 questions with them about his identity and they only thought he was Mazrim Taim because they ran out of questions!  ;D

 

So although Taim does not specifically state who he is so that he can be quoted, he must have done off-scene in order to gain access to Rand. I doubt Demandred just popped over to Caemlyn on the off-chance that the guards thought he looked like someone important enough to allow in the Palace. In earlier books, Demandred impersonating Taim seems very likely hence the popularity of the Taimendred Theory. But subsequent developments such as the battle at the Cleansing and the renegade Darkfriend Asha'man POV in Far Madding (plus the denials by RJ) would seem to indicate that this was nothing but a Red Herring. It is entirely possible that Demandred is impersonating an Asha'man who is part of Taim's inner circle at the Black Tower, so that he can monitor and influence Taim and the Black Tower. I speculate on this because the Black Tower is such a powerful organisation that it seems doubtful to me that the Forsaken would not try and infiltrate and corrupt it.

 

I think the Chosen did indeed infiltrate the BT - there was this guy who called himself Dashiva. Which leads one to another question - would two Chosen get involved with the same power centre? That doesn't seem their modus operandi; everywhere else they've split up power centres one-to-one. Perhaps this is to avoid duplication of effort or more likely, they are too suspicious of each other to risk coming into direct conflict.

Anyhow, if you've got a Taim= Demandred theory and you've discounted RJ's statements, who are we to dissuade you?

 

 

I thought Dashiva was there to actually keep close tabs on Rand himself. It would make sense to have a Forsaken near Rand and another keeping an eye on the Black Tower. Without looking it up, I cannot recall if Dashiva spent a lot of time at the Black Tower or if he was with Rand a lot.

[Sharaman]

He was with Rand after Dumai's Well (CoS) because Rand picked him at random. Until the attack in Carhein (PoD) of course.

Taim was surprised and angry when that happened.

Earlier Dashiva was with the BT and there's no way that he could have known Rand would pick him, since Rand didn't know himself.

Nevertheless, the Chosen generally haven't ended up two to a power center.

 

[BladeDancer]

He was with Rand after Dumai's Well (CoS) because Rand picked him at random. Until the attack in Carhein (PoD) of course.

Taim was surprised and angry when that happened.

Earlier Dashiva was with the BT and there's no way that he could have known Rand would pick him, since Rand didn't know himself.

Nevertheless, the Chosen generally haven't ended up two to a power center.

 

 

It seems a bit unlikely that Dashiva was randomly picked up by Rand. Of all the Asha'man, he just happened to pick the one Forsaken? Surely Dashiva positioned himself in order to gain Rand's trust (at least as much does trust strangers). The coincidence of Dashiva, one of Rand picked Asha'man, being a Forsaken seems too great, so I suspect this was engineered by the Forsaken as part of their plan to watch Rand.

 

It is possible that Dashiva was the only Forsaken Asha'man but I suspect the involvement of Demandred at the Black Tower or Taim being another new Forsaken. I'll have to re-read the Dashiva sections to see if there are any clues.

[Sharaman]

Nope Rand thrust his finger out at random at a bunch of Ashaman after Dumai's Wells and said I'll take this bloke. Dashiva was looking in another direction, muttering to himself. Taim said something "Dashiva is gaining strength quickly but why don't you take Kisman or Rochaid instead?" When Rand insisted, Taim was ticked off.  Completely random - Rand's ta'veren sense presumably but not the slightest indication that Dashiva had anything to do with it. They'd never spoken to each other even IIRC.