Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Sentinel78]

hes not in shara. the rule is not even SLIGHTLY secured, and they are in a massive civil war last time we saw them. and he would have no army.

 

Personally I'm leaning away from Shara, although I used to like that idea.  However, the Ayyad were the real power in Shara, so losing their figureheads isn't that big of a deal.  They ARE in a massive civil war, but we have no idea whether it's still going on.  The biggest point in favor of Shara is they were asking back in Book 6 when the Dragon Reborn will break the world, implying a misunderstanding of the Prophecies that could result in them willing to go to war with Rand, not to mention they think male channelers are animals and abuse them worse than pretty much any other culture.

 

That being said, it's really late in the series.

[dholm]

Ehh, logistics are not that sticky. Verin manages to transport Mat's army -- which is around 8,000 soldiers at that point -- to Caemlyn on her own. Granted, she's not looking for tactical advantage at that point, but it's still good to keep in mind.

 

The problems Grady mentions are affected greatly by his own strength in the Power, as well as his tiredness.

 

The reason Rand offers 100 Asha'man to Ituralde is to give him weapons; not just for transportation.

[Sharaman]

Randland's average sized armies are 50K plus. Do the math. 

Assume one channeller can open a gate that can transport say, 30 guys on horses/ minute if each rider takes 2 secs through the gate. Then one such gate handles 1800 / hour. Hence, to move 50,000 cavalry /hr you need 27-30 channelers who can each hold a gate for an hr. So, 100 channelers may be able to deploy 50K troops in roughly 30 minutes, working at full capacity.

Verin (with angreal) would need to hold a gate open for over 4 hrs for 8,000 odd people to pass, if she did it alone.

She did say "Caemlyn in a matter of hours", which fits.

It may be reasonable to assume that Verin's Travel weave would have been noted with interest by Joline, Eddy, Teslyn, Beth and Seta.

They may just have helped her along as well. In that case, you have four experienced channelers, discounting the Sul'dam- so they may able to do it in just about an hour.

The logistics in a war situation does require a fair no of channelers if each holds the capacity to move 1500-2000 troops an hour.

 

[Muad Cheade]

Shara is an ideal place to raise troops. It gives the Shadow access to both channelers and human armies, both of which can Travel through gateways. Something Shadowspawn can't do.

 

I have a pet theory that Demandred has established himself as the Dragon Reborn in Shara. After all, he did covet all of Lews Therin's titles.

 

And it seems that the Sharans are in fact scouting out the Westlands. Rand hears and sees one in the inn in Tear (in KoD) Although, he does not know he is Sharan. 

[Sab]

Shara is an ideal place to raise troops. It gives the Shadow access to both channelers and human armies, both of which can Travel through gateways. Something Shadowspawn can't do.

 

I have a pet theory that Demandred has established himself as the Dragon Reborn in Shara. After all, he did covet all of Lews Therin's titles.

 

And it seems that the Sharans are in fact scouting out the Westlands. Rand hears and sees one in the inn in Tear (in KoD) Although, he does not know he is Sharan. 

 

Ummm how do you know it was a Sharan?  I thought it was a Seanchan stirring up trouble?  Shara is like the Seanchan homeland, enough chaos has been caused there to ensure that they won't cause trouble when the last battle happens.

[coteaz]

Demandred would not be in shara for the simple fact that the last battle is going to be in randland, he would be spending all his time possible moving his proxies around the field for maximum impact come the last battle.

[Muad Cheade]

Ummm how do you know it was a Sharan?  I thought it was a Seanchan stirring up trouble?  Shara is like the Seanchan homeland, enough chaos has been caused there to ensure that they won't cause trouble when the last battle happens.

In KoD, Chapter 21 "Within the Stone," the Sharan was the man (who Rand notes is oddly dressed) who was trying to sell silkworms (the primary thing Shara is known for) to some Tairens. The man who agreed with the Sharan that silk came from worms (the Tairen merchant believed it came from trees) was Seanchan.

 

Demandred would not be in shara for the simple fact that the last battle is going to be in randland, he would be spending all his time possible moving his proxies around the field for maximum impact come the last battle.

We have not had even a sniff of his whereabouts. Taim seems more likely to be Ishamael's proxy. In the prologue, he says "my rule is secure. We gather for war." That fits best with Shara. He has seized control of that nation (as the Dragon Reborn) and is gathering its vast armies and channelers.

[Shannow]

Randland's average sized armies are 50K plus. Do the math.  

Assume one channeller can open a gate that can transport say, 30 guys on horses/ minute if each rider takes 2 secs through the gate. Then one such gate handles 1800 / hour. Hence, to move 50,000 cavalry /hr you need 27-30 channelers who can each hold a gate for an hr. So, 100 channelers may be able to deploy 50K troops in roughly 30 minutes, working at full capacity.

Verin (with angreal) would need to hold a gate open for over 4 hrs for 8,000 odd people to pass, if she did it alone.

She did say "Caemlyn in a matter of hours", which fits.

It may be reasonable to assume that Verin's Travel weave would have been noted with interest by Joline, Eddy, Teslyn, Beth and Seta.

They may just have helped her along as well. In that case, you have four experienced channelers, discounting the Sul'dam- so they may able to do it in just about an hour.

The logistics in a war situation does require a fair no of channelers if each holds the capacity to move 1500-2000 troops an hour.

 

 

Channelers do not have to hold gateways open. They can tie the weave off. Sammael did it when moving the Shaido into Rand's path in CoS, and Rand tied off the Deathgates in KoD, but only loosely, so that they would evaporate after a while.

 

So a Forsaken strength channeler can open 10 or 20 gateways in a few mintues, allowing many more troops to move through simultaneously.

[Sharaman]

Good idea tying off weaves but you'll still have to watch carefully to prevent death by friendly gateway whenever the weaves dissipate. If RaT who knows a fair amount about the power and the logistics of armies Travelling during the AoL decides 100 channelers are necessary for 50K troops, I'd take that as a reasonable thumb rule.

That's a lot of channelers.

 

 

 

[Shannow]

Good idea tying off weaves but you'll still have to watch carefully to prevent death by friendly gateway whenever the weaves dissipate. If RaT who knows a fair amount about the power and the logistics of armies Travelling during the AoL decides 100 channelers are necessary for 50K troops, I'd take that as a reasonable thumb rule.

That's a lot of channelers.

 

 

 

 

A tied off weave lasts forever. They only dissipate if you deliberately tie the knot loosely, like Sammael did with the Shaido, and like Rand did with his Deathgates.

[Sharaman]

There's been debate about whether Gate weaves can be permanently tied off.

TPoD IIRC.

Also we don't see this method of opening several gates and tying them off employed on a regular basis when RaT is moving troops so I'm wondering about this.

 

 

 

[Thexile]

I have to go with the pie on Dem, and for people saying you can't get the border landers to fight along side shadow spawn. Well look at it this way, You have the shadow spawn on one side, the light side in the middle facing the shadow. Then you have the border landers behind the light. So if dem can spark a feud between rand and the borderlands they would have reason to fight rand. Now consider the massive size of each army do you think the border landers can see past rands army and spot the darkspawn? It would be an ideal time to strike at rand and really mess up the fight for the light, without the border landers knowing what they even did. Very tactical fitting demandreds style

 

Also Rand has recently dropped an army into the borderlands, whats to stop the border landers  from thinking it's some kind of attempt at taking them over and has them already on the defense?

[Ramzrie]

I have a hard time believing that Demandred is in Shara.  Why would he let Gren come in there and steal the 2 leaders of Shara away right under his nose.  Personally I think RJ wrote Taim to be Dem and then changed his mind 3 books into it.  I thinks its pretty stupid to have Dem's alter ego being off screen for 13 books.  But I am kinda curious if the 13 Aes Sedai with the borderlanders are actually the black ajah that freed Taim after he was captured.  As for who Dem is, hell at this point I say bela or olver. =)

[wingedearth]

I have a hard time believing that Demandred is in Shara.  Why would he let Gren come in there and steal the 2 leaders of Shara away right under his nose.  Personally I think RJ wrote Taim to be Dem and then changed his mind 3 books into it.

 

If Taim is Demandred, then is he a fake Taim? Wasn't Taim already a False Dragon before Demandred was released from the Seals on Shayol Ghul?

[Ramzrie]

RJ pretty much put a nail in the coffin of the Taim is Demandred theory.

[Acumen]

K, I read through the first 5 pages to see if they had, but noone seems to be mentioning it..

 

What about Logain?

 

The one kicker seems to be he would have been severely reprimanded for getting gentled, but beyond that...

 

-He was a False Dragon (showing his envy of Lews Therin)

-He has a movement behind him (running counter to Taim) in the Black Tower

-He can obviously channel, and near to as powerful as Rand

-His devilishly good looks match up with Demandreds

-He's helped to keep him alive in that battle with the Trollocs and the deathgates

 

I dunno, beyond that Shara seems like the best bet because you've been waiting for them to come out of left field. I always figured Perrin was going to step up there but with only 2 books left I doubt it.

 

It makes just perfect sense that Taim would be Demandred though, I don't buy it RJ! Their physical descriptions in Lord of Chaos even match up... Anyone know what the EXACT wording Jordan used to negate that was?

 

And where does it say we haven't met Demandred alter ego yet?

[Sentinel78]

Ignoring other evidence, Demandred traveled to Shayol Ghul at the beginning of Book 6.  At this point, Logain was gentled and in Salidar under the control of Aes Sedai.  Also, from what we know of Logain's emotions through Toveine and Gabrelle, they are not consistent with the kind of cold bastard Demandred is.

[Acumen]

Ignoring other evidence, Demandred traveled to Shayol Ghul at the beginning of Book 6.  At this point, Logain was gentled and in Salidar under the control of Aes Sedai.  Also, from what we know of Logain's emotions through Toveine and Gabrelle, they are not consistent with the kind of cold bastard Demandred is.

 

And that rules that out... thank ya.

 

K, put my vote in for Shara or leading the armies in the Blight

 

Taim still makes way too much sense though.

[WolfDragonFox]

I really wish people would stop throwing out the Taim is Demandred theory.  RJ said its not him so let it go.  Its someone else so please no more Taimandred posts. 

 

I also don't know of anything saying we haven't met his alter ego, but I don't know if we have either.  Thats a toss up but it should be fair to say that even if his alter ego hasn't had face time he is sure to have been mentioned, otherwise RJ wouldn't have said we should be able to figure it out.

[jadelollipop]

I know Demandred is obviously not Mat but love the similarities (both gamblers) but for some that would be enough  LOL

Rand,Perrin,Mat and friends in some ways mirror the originals in battle against DO  rather as Harry P and company mirrored Mauraders  :)

[Sharaman]

RJ said Dem's alter ego hadn't been seen till CoT, I think.

Also RJ never said that we should be able to figure out Demandred because of course, he hadn't been seen.

Otherwise the obvious answer is Berelain

"Events to the South" = Mayene is South of everywhere on Randland

"My forces are ready" - her army is right out there scrapping alongside Perrin

The sudden change from having the hots for Perrin to coolth that he smells in CoT while chasing after Faile - that would be when Dem took over from Berelain.

The awesome hotness also helps - Berelain can recruit proxies easily.

 

[Morsmordre]

I am almost 100% sure that we've seen a character that never smiles. This is the pattern that we should look for. Now that I'm home again (finally), I'll be able to look at all the books and I'll find him :)

 

I've never thought of Mayen. It's a nice suggestion. I remember that one of the main characters (I think it was Thom) was pretty admired by her because she managed to handle the nobility of Mayen and still live. Now that she is so far away from home for such a long period of time, I think that it is highly likely to exist a rebellion of some sort in Mayen against her (plotted by Demandred himself). I consider this a good guess ;)

[Crael123]

I am almost 100% sure that we've seen a character that never smiles. This is the pattern that we should look for. Now that I'm home again (finally), I'll be able to look at all the books and I'll find him :)

 

I've never thought of Mayen. It's a nice suggestion. I remember that one of the main characters (I think it was Thom) was pretty admired by her because she managed to handle the nobility of Mayen and still live. Now that she is so far away from home for such a long period of time, I think that it is highly likely to exist a rebellion of some sort in Mayen against her (plotted by Demandred himself). I consider this a good guess ;)

 

talamenes never smiles

[Crael123]

RJ said Dem's alter ego hadn't been seen till CoT, I think.

Also RJ never said that we should be able to figure out Demandred because of course, he hadn't been seen.

Otherwise the obvious answer is Berelain

"Events to the South" = Mayene is South of everywhere on Randland

"My forces are ready" - her army is right out there scrapping alongside Perrin

The sudden change from having the hots for Perrin to coolth that he smells in CoT while chasing after Faile - that would be when Dem took over from Berelain.

The awesome hotness also helps - Berelain can recruit proxies easily.

 

 

that would be sick. please never say that ever again thnk you

[Morsmordre]

I am almost 100% sure that we've seen a character that never smiles. This is the pattern that we should look for. Now that I'm home again (finally), I'll be able to look at all the books and I'll find him :)

 

I've never thought of Mayen. It's a nice suggestion. I remember that one of the main characters (I think it was Thom) was pretty admired by her because she managed to handle the nobility of Mayen and still live. Now that she is so far away from home for such a long period of time, I think that it is highly likely to exist a rebellion of some sort in Mayen against her (plotted by Demandred himself). I consider this a good guess ;)

 

talamenes never smiles

 

Talmanes looks like a calm person and Demandred is always in perpetual anger. Also, Matt catches some hints of Talmanes smyling. I doubt Matt is the only one who can make Demandred laugh.

Though, on second thought, in TGS Demandred is compared to Moridin as 'the shorter man'. Talmanes is Caihrienin and they are well known for their shortness. But I doubt Talmanes is Demandred.