The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[somathus]

Here is a new one.  We have read that Fades are Trolloc offspring.  Maybe SH is the son of Narg!!!    Narg smart, after all.

[entropic]

This might be a bit random...but...I was thinking that maybe our understanding of Callandor's nature is a bit off. This is gonna sound crazy, (bear with me) but what if Callandor can enable Rand to draw more than the Choedan Kal? What if the lack of a buffer and the need to link with two females alters its nature? IIRC, Cadsuane says the lack of a buffer makes it easily possible for a man to draw way more saidin than is safe. It is possible that since there is no buffer that once Rand is in a linked circle with two females he can draw on more of the power than before because it is going into the collective power of all three (the women are the buffer). Does this make any sense? I need to develop this theory a bit more, but I thought it could be quite possible.

(This could also be the important thing we missed in books 4-6)

[Mrs. B]

~sigh~ Ok folks, I do want to say straight off, I have NOT read all 69 pages of this post.  Sorry, I dont have that kind of time!  ;D  But here goes.

I THINK the men that can channel do NOT go crazy due to the taint.  I think the bubbles of evil that happen around the men are what everyone thinks as the men going crazy.  Point one: we first see bubbles of evil in book 4; Rand and the mirrors, Perin & his ax, and Mat and the cards.  First thought of everyone is Rand has gone mad.  Rand starts to wonder himself. The taint allows the DO to touch the world.  It is his touch.  So in the beginning, its the bubbles of evil that break the world.  There were a LOT more men channeling all over the place.  Bubbles of evil making the world boil.  The rest of the world see that these bubbles are happening around the Men. So they think they have gone crazy.  Since the male half is tainted, the DO can much more easily attach a bubble to a male line.  Since Rand and the boys are in the same area, the bubbles of evil are able to attach to Rand as well as Perin & Mat as there havent been three Ta'veren at once.  Since Ta'veren are key pieces in the age lace, they would attract the bubbles more readily than any other life. I believe in book 4, there is another episode where just Rand & Mat are attacked by bubbles of evil (sand) but not another episode for Perin who is at that time, away from Rand.  

Rand has thought about Taim and his sanity. He's old, how did he keep from going crazy?  Dark friends arent effected by the bubbles because the DO keeps them "safe" from those bubbles.    

I know what you're thinking.  HEY! in EotW the very beginning, LT was CRAZY!  Demandred Healed LT and gave him his sanity.  Yes, I do say LT did go nuts.  He saw his love and family, friends die.  That in itself make anyone go into shock and temporary insanity.  He saw all around him die a clowdy memory like a dream of a dream.(page iix)  It doesnt say flat out that He killed him with his own hands or power.  LT thinks he did.  Demandred thinks he did too.  

Now to present time.   Bubbles arent happening as much because the men who are born to channel end up killing themselves, murdered or is stilled.    

Now that the DO touch is more previlant, the bubbles are happening to the women that can channel as well as the Men.  When the DO does break free, the bubbles will attach to regular lives in the pattern.

[mossman87]

Well, in a way you can compare the two, it's definitely the taint that made them mad, but it's the same power as the bubbles of evil, the True Power. (Yes yes, I'm assuming here, but Brandon implied it pretty much).  It's all just the DO's essence, with the power used in different ways, like Mordeth has all kinds of weird powers that lets him cause time to keep repeating, the fog, etc but it's still the same power in the end.

 

And they already have attached to normal people, for example the town sinking into the ground, and Hinderstap or however it's spelled.  Brandon said the Pattern's failing and this is why we're seeing more and more bubbles, the protection from the DO just isn't there as strongly anymore because it's unraveling.

[Lambada]

.....like Mordeth has all kinds of weird powers that lets him cause time to keep repeating.....

 

Wait, when did we see Mordeth cause time to repeat? If we have seen this then the implications are HUGE.

[mossman87]

.....like Mordeth has all kinds of weird powers that lets him cause time to keep repeating.....

 

Wait, when did we see Mordeth cause time to repeat? If we have seen this then the implications are HUGE.

 

Fain set the trap for Rand in.. TGH I think?  When he went into the house, and it kept repeating.  Brandon said Rand could have been trapped in their forever.

 

I'll look up the quote and get back to you.

 

Edit: My bad it was RJ, not Brandon:

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/201210/t/frenzy-.html#reply-201210

Someone asked about the house and the flies.  [The Great Hunt Ch. 10 - most people thought this was Lanfear. - Terez] He said it was a time loop trap set by Fain and if Rand had not left the house it would have repeated indefinitely till Rand died.

[Sentinel78]

That's right - Fain set the time trap.  Which is why Rand was incredibly vulnerable in Far Madding where he couldn't even channel but Fain could still use his Mordeth-powers.  I'm guessing Fain can't do that in steddings though.

[mossman87]

That's right - Fain set the time trap.  Which is why Rand was incredibly vulnerable in Far Madding where he couldn't even channel but Fain could still use his Mordeth-powers.  I'm guessing Fain can't do that in steddings though.

 

I'm not so sure.. Fain IS his power, he isn't trying to channel it from anywhere.  I kind of look at Fain as a well of Mordeth, like the wells of the True Source.

 

I think the reason you can't touch the Source in Steddings is because they aren't native to that universe, so you can't sense it because you aren't really where you think you are, if that makes any sense, but with a well you would be able to, because that bit of the Source is right there.

 

Example: I don't think the dagger would be any less deadly if you cut someone in a Stedding.

[Toss3]

Been a long time lurker and fan of the series and had to register after reading this thread( all 70 pages of it). :)

 

This might be a bit random...but...I was thinking that maybe our understanding of Callandor's nature is a bit off. This is gonna sound crazy, (bear with me) but what if Callandor can enable Rand to draw more than the Choedan Kal? What if the lack of a buffer and the need to link with two females alters its nature? IIRC, Cadsuane says the lack of a buffer makes it easily possible for a man to draw way more saidin than is safe. It is possible that since there is no buffer that once Rand is in a linked circle with two females he can draw on more of the power than before because it is going into the collective power of all three (the women are the buffer). Does this make any sense? I need to develop this theory a bit more, but I thought it could be quite possible.

(This could also be the important thing we missed in books 4-6)

 

Really interesting theory and one I could agree with you on. The forsaken cannot know for sure which of the sa'angreal are the most powerful, as most of them were made after the bore was sealed(during the breaking). So Callandor might yet turn out to be the most powerful of them all.

 

Another thing that really caught my eye was the port Rand noticed upon exiting the Aiel waste. Someone brought it up in the very beginning of this thread, but it was never acknowledged as a possible theory. Everyone who has read the World of the Wheel of Time knows that machines were pretty important during the AoL and that the power only counted for so much(the reason why the forsaken don't know everything, as it wasn't used as a weapon for a long time). So it could be possible that BS was referring to the rediscovering of flying machines(Rand asked Asmo about it, but never really got any answers). Now that Rand has founded the academy it's even more likely that machines are going to play a part in the story yet.

 

As for the question as to why the DO didn't destroy the wheel of time when "he" had the chance, I've only got one theory: the DO has never made "his" intentions known to anyone but himself so every mention of him wanting to destroy the world might have come from Ishmael who thought himself to be the DO after being only half-bound by LTT(and as a known philosopher during the AoL came to the conclusion that the wheel is a never ending story only repeating the same threads over and over again and thus needs to be destroyed). It's in fact only mentioned that the DO wants to remake the world in his own image, but "he" doesn't really need to destroy the wheel in order for that to happen; he only needs to destroy all of the Light's champions with balefire or preferably turn them to the shadow.

 

Btw. is it possible to create a 72-peep circle even while using both male and female sa'angreal?

 

Man it bothers me that there are only two books left with so many questions left unanswered and I'm afraid we're never going to get them due to RJ being held in T'A'R 'til the wheel spins him out again. ;)

[Lambada]

Really interesting theory and one I could agree with you on. The forsaken cannot know for sure which of the sa'angreal are the most powerful, as most of them were made after the bore was sealed(during the breaking). So Callandor might yet turn out to be the most powerful of them all.

 

Just isolating this part, I feel I should point out that Lanfear stated that there were only two sa'angreal for men more powerful than Calandoor, only one of which she knew still existed.

While your point stands for saidar *angrel it doesn't for male *angreal for the simple reason that after the sealing and hence tainting of saidin no female Aes Sedai would have been making male angreal / sa'angrel, and most men would have been too affected by the taint to be able to make one unaided. Thus the most powerful male angreal / sa'angreal are known to the Forsaken, but the same does not necessarily apply to female angreal / sa'angrel.

[Toss3]

Really interesting theory and one I could agree with you on. The forsaken cannot know for sure which of the sa'angreal are the most powerful, as most of them were made after the bore was sealed(during the breaking). So Callandor might yet turn out to be the most powerful of them all.

 

Just isolating this part, I feel I should point out that Lanfear stated that there were only two sa'angreal for men more powerful than Calandoor, only one of which she knew still existed.

While your point stands for saidar *angrel it doesn't for male *angreal for the simple reason that after the sealing and hence tainting of saidin no female Aes Sedai would have been making male angreal / sa'angrel, and most men would have been too affected by the taint to be able to make one unaided. Thus the most powerful male angreal / sa'angreal are known to the Forsaken, but the same does not necessarily apply to female angreal / sa'angrel.

 

Well we know that Callandor was made after LTT's death and that was after the bore was sealed which would imply that it was made without her knowledge.

 

The CK were made at the end of the war, but were never used so it goes without saying that she, the most powerful of the female forsaken, would know about it.

 

Notice how they always refer to the access keys being the most powerful sa'angreal male and female channelers can use, but it is never mentioned if callandor could possibly be stronger when used properly(two women and one man). :) Just food for thought.

[Lambada]

Just isolating this part, I feel I should point out that Lanfear stated that there were only two sa'angreal for men more powerful than Calandoor, only one of which she knew still existed.

While your point stands for saidar *angrel it doesn't for male *angreal for the simple reason that after the sealing and hence tainting of saidin no female Aes Sedai would have been making male angreal / sa'angrel, and most men would have been too affected by the taint to be able to make one unaided. Thus the most powerful male angreal / sa'angreal are known to the Forsaken, but the same does not necessarily apply to female angreal / sa'angrel.

 

Well we know that Callandor was made after LTT's death and that was after the bore was sealed which would imply that it was made without her knowledge.

 

The CK were made at the end of the war, but were never used so it goes without saying that she, the most powerful of the female forsaken, would know about it.

 

Notice how they always refer to the access keys being the most powerful sa'angreal male and female channelers can use, but it is never mentioned if callandor could possibly be stronger when used properly(two women and one man). :) Just food for thought.

Hmm... According to wot.wikia.com Callandor was made either shortly before, or during the breaking. Has it ever been definitively said when it was created?

I would not think Callandor can be more powerful than the CK as Lanfear explicitly states that there are only two more powerful than it - one which she knows still exists (the male CK).

[Ashaman Kovan]

She shouldn't have bonded him in the first place; can you imagine a better way to make him distrust her and all Aes Sedai in general?

 

I'm not arguing that. I'm just giving the evidence that compensates for her weird moods.

 

There is a much better explanation for her fluctuating moods ... one of her warders was killed by Whitecloaks when she arrived in the Two Rivers.  We have heard Aes Sedai (Leanne, I think) state that losing a warder could leave her in tears most nights for almost a year.

 

I wouldn't say that's a "much better" explanation. But it is another contributing factor.

[Toss3]

Just isolating this part, I feel I should point out that Lanfear stated that there were only two sa'angreal for men more powerful than Calandoor, only one of which she knew still existed.

While your point stands for saidar *angrel it doesn't for male *angreal for the simple reason that after the sealing and hence tainting of saidin no female Aes Sedai would have been making male angreal / sa'angrel, and most men would have been too affected by the taint to be able to make one unaided. Thus the most powerful male angreal / sa'angreal are known to the Forsaken, but the same does not necessarily apply to female angreal / sa'angrel.

 

Well we know that Callandor was made after LTT's death and that was after the bore was sealed which would imply that it was made without her knowledge.

 

The CK were made at the end of the war, but were never used so it goes without saying that she, the most powerful of the female forsaken, would know about it.

 

Notice how they always refer to the access keys being the most powerful sa'angreal male and female channelers can use, but it is never mentioned if callandor could possibly be stronger when used properly(two women and one man). :) Just food for thought.

Hmm... According to wot.wikia.com Callandor was made either shortly before, or during the breaking. Has it ever been definitively said when it was created?

I would not think Callandor can be more powerful than the CK as Lanfear explicitly states that there are only two more powerful than it - one which she knows still exists (the male CK).

 

Remains to be seen, but there's a reason why Callandor was mentioned in the prophecies instead of the CK. We also need remember that the forsaken don't know everything, even though they act like they do. :)

[entropic]

Wow. I was really expecting my theory to be shot down quickly with some quote I had never heard, but the more I think about it the more I see no reason for this to be impossible.

[Toss3]

Wow. I was really expecting my theory to be shot down quickly with some quote I had never heard, but the more I think about it the more I see no reason for this to be impossible.

Only Brandon knows for sure though, but I would assume that Callandor is going to play a big part in defeating the DO considering he's the only one who can free it. :)

[mossman87]

Wow. I was really expecting my theory to be shot down quickly with some quote I had never heard, but the more I think about it the more I see no reason for this to be impossible.

Only Brandon knows for sure though, but I would assume that Callandor is going to play a big part in defeating the DO considering he's the only one who can free it. :)

 

Awhile ago we reasoned out that Rand destroyed the CK because it was just too much power, and he finally realized that's not how he has to fight the last battle, it won't be a massive power battle.  So having Callandor be even more powerful would be odd.

 

But I can't remember if anyone's points were fact on that or if it was all opinion, gonna have to wait for Ares I think, he's got a pretty good memory. :P

[Toss3]

Wow. I was really expecting my theory to be shot down quickly with some quote I had never heard, but the more I think about it the more I see no reason for this to be impossible.

Only Brandon knows for sure though, but I would assume that Callandor is going to play a big part in defeating the DO considering he's the only one who can free it. :)

 

Awhile ago we reasoned out that Rand destroyed the CK because it was just too much power, and he finally realized that's not how he has to fight the last battle, it won't be a massive power battle.  So having Callandor be even more powerful would be odd.

 

But I can't remember if anyone's points were fact on that or if it was all opinion, gonna have to wait for Ares I think, he's got a pretty good memory. :P

 

I think he destroyed it because it was too much power for one man to handle, but callandor was made with this in mind; the female power working as a buffer could make it wield a combination between Saidar/Saidin that would rival the power of the TP(maybe it would work as interference and destroy the dark one for good and rid the people of the one power as well).

[Carter]

There is a theme of overdrawing allowing you to do huge things with the OP. When manetheren is overrun the queen kills everyone herself by overdrawing, Lews Therin creates a huge mountain by overdrawing. wouldn't surprise me if Callandor allows you to overdraw hugely.

[wumpus]

I don't know how many have access to this because it was a short run RPG, but this is the description of Callandor:

 

Callandor

Power Rating: 8

Attunement: Male

The most powerful saidin-attuned sa'angreal ever made (except for the items described below), and certainly the most powerful known to have survived the Breaking (again, except for the next items), is Callandor, the Sword That Is Not A Sword, the Sword That Cannot Be Touched. Made of crystal in the shape of a single-edged, two-handed sword with a slightly curved blade, Callandor was kept in the Stone of Tear for centuries, specially shielded to prevent male channelers from taking it, since with it they could easily level entire cities.

 

According to the Prophacies of the Dragon, only the Dragon Reborn could touch Callandor. Rand al'Thor proved these prophecies correct, and himself the Dragon Reborn, when he seized Callandor and took it for his own. Fearing its power, he later drove it into the very heart of the Stone, there to remain until he had it brought to him (which he later did, feeling he needed its power).

 

Unfortunately, Callandor poseses several dangers for Rand. First, it lacks the buffers other sa'angreal have. This allows him to channel so much power that using it sometimes threatens to overwhelm his sanity - he tries to raise the dead, or lashes out at his enemies in ways that cause as much harm to his own forces as to them. Second, according to Cadsuane Sedai, he can only use Callandor safely by linking with two women when he does so. Whether her words hold the truth, or she is simply trying to manipulate the Dragon Reborn for her own ends, remains to be seen.

 

I also wonder if the whole concept of 2 gals + a guy for Callandor has anything to do with the dominion bands, e.g. it is only safe for a male to use it with two women holding the bands - two are needed to slow / stop the madness from creeping back into the gal running the show.

[shinerfan]

Several people have mentioned the Choeden Kal being destroyed, wasn't it just the access keys that were destroyed? Anyone have any quotes or references concerning this? Thanks.

[ed2funy]

it said they were destroyed....

 

the female one's hand melted...

the male's one got destroyed...i believe it said it clearly in tGS

[Blackhoof]

the words were something like "He (Rand) turned its (CK) power onto itself, and the Choedan Kal exploded"

[ed2funy]

the words were something like "He (Rand) turned its (CK) power onto itself, and the Choedan Kal exploded"

 

Sure what Blackhoof said...

 

lol..i don't remember exactly...and that is close....i think...

let's just say he is right, ok?

[Blackhoof]

let's just say he is right, ok?

 

As always, ed2funny, as always....  ;D