The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[dholm]

True, but Rand didn't really react with joy after using the TP in TGS...   but thank you for the clarification from BS. 

 

We also know that with Rand 'curing' himself of Lews Therin's voice at the end of TGS, that the voice was never caused by the madness associated with channeling Saidin (because that can't be healed.)  So, what caused it? 

It most certainly can be healed. That's proven in the prologue of the very first book when Ishamael heals Lews Therin of his taint-induced madness.

 

He also comments that it's a shame none of his "sisters" are there, as what he's about to do is gonna hurt, implying directly that it's possible to heal it even without the True Power.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

Has this been discussed elsewhere???

 

"In book 4 (I think) the wise ones claims that entering the world of dreams in flesh is evil when they try to teach Egwene. This is not explained further and we have seen Rand entering in flesh at least 3 times and Egwene at least ones (going to Salidar). I have not seen any theories about why this is evil. My own theory is that since only the creator, the dark one and the world of dreams are the constants, then the world of dreams is somehow essential in keeping the dark one away from reality, and making a "hole" in it is therefore beneficial for the dark one.

 

I believe that this could be the big thing first mentioned in book 4-6 and has been repeated now and then without much attention."

 

I was thinking about this myself. Another aspect of this is: why can't shadowspawn pass through a gateway? I think the two questions are related since entering T'A'R in the flesh happens by gateway (that's how Egwene rediscovered traveling).

 

In short, we have:

gateway to T'A'R + entering 'in the flesh' = evil (why??, and is this true anyway?)

evil shadowspawn + gateway = dead (why??, at least this is a confirmed fact)

There's bound to be a connection here somewhere, but more importantly, we don't have a good explanation for either.

[emyali]

Has anyone speculated on what the repercussions of Birgitte Trahelion violating the precepts of Tel'aran'rhiod might be? Have other heros of legend been removed from the world of dreams in a similar fashion? If so, who are they and what are they doing?

 

I don't know how much discussion this has warranted from the community here, and it just struck me as something that might have some significance to this thread.

 

Any thoughts?

 

this is unlikely to happen

we all remember how being ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod almost caused Birgitte her life, and the only thing saved her is the presence of Elayne and her fast reacting in bonding Birgitte to save her life

 

the conditions of Birgitte cant be applied on the rest of the Heros, as there was pre-recognition between her and Elayne & Nynaeve(and their powerful abilities), and her ribbing occured while she was with Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod, thus she appeared in our world in a place near to her.

[NetSlider]

In LofC Egwene goes to see WO and before that happens she talks about how before you enter TA, the blackness with all the stars-like things is between the realty fabric (where the DO is imprisoned). Also, in the same segment (I think it is ch 10 or 11) she says how it is impossible to enter steding in TAR just as it was impossible to enter Rhuidian. Maybe that's it

[nnokwoodeye]

o.k., I haven't read the last 65 pages so I hope that hasn't been mentioned yet. About the portal stones, in TSR it was said that there are 4 in tear which is very unusual considering there rarity. So I wonder, considering that portal stones can't be moved, if there is something important in that location and if those 4 sets of portal stones were designed to somehow exploit whatever that might be.

[NetSlider]

BTW, i'm not sure but does anyone know if there was a mention about portal stones and stadings?

[Dolphineus]

o.k., I haven't read the last 65 pages so I hope that hasn't been mentioned yet. About the portal stones, in TSR it was said that there are 4 in tear which is very unusual considering there rarity. So I wonder, considering that portal stones can't be moved, if there is something important in that location and if those 4 sets of portal stones were designed to somehow exploit whatever that might be.

 

Portal Stones were introduced and used as plot devices in the 2nd book, The Great Hunt.

[somathus]

Don't have time to be on these forums a lot or read all the posts.  I am pretty sure that what Brandon is refering to is The Watcher.   

At least that's what I think.

 

 

That was Shaidar Haran (sp?)

[Sentinel78]

The watcher was Moridin, not SH.

[metria31183]

I don't post here much, but I occasionally lurk and I have thought on what this thing could be.  I've never seen this discussed anywhere before.  

 

In tFoH, in the last chapter when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR, they are both there in the flesh.  Rahvin tries to make Rand fade away and stops it be forming the image of himself as whole again.  At first the image he forms of himself is Lew Therin, but he is able to stop that and reform it as he sees himself.  I don't have book in front of me so I can't give an exact quote, but when he is reforming the image of Rand al'Thor, he describes himself as "hard."  Afterwards, people that haven't seen him since before that, comment on how he looks harder.  

 

I believe that he subtley changed his physical appearance when this happened.  What happens in TAR does not affect the waking world, but injuries sustained are real.  (Remember Carlinya getting her hair burned off when she was in Tower in TAR with Elayne and Nynaeve?  Egwene was surprised to see her with short hair when she arrives in Salidar.)  And Rand was in TAR physically.  Is it possible that this is a set-up for Rand getting his hand back by entering TAR in the flesh, imagining his hand not being gone, and then stepping back out with his hand intact?  This seems out there even for me and I'm the one writing it. I'll concede that getting his hand back might not be where this is going, but I think the other characaters commenting that he looks harder after the encounter with Rahvin is tied to Rand's reforming the his own image as hard when Rahvin tried to hmake him fade away.

 

 

[lrbenson]

I don't post here much, but I occasionally lurk and I have thought on what this thing could be.  I've never seen this discussed anywhere before.  

 

In tFoH, in the last chapter when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR, they are both there in the flesh.  Rahvin tries to make Rand fade away and stops it be forming the image of himself as whole again.  At first the image he forms of himself is Lew Therin, but he is able to stop that and reform it as he sees himself.  I don't have book in front of me so I can't give an exact quote, but when he is reforming the image of Rand al'Thor, he describes himself as "hard."  Afterwards, people that haven't seen him since before that, comment on how he looks harder.  

 

I believe that he subtley changed his physical appearance when this happened.  What happens in TAR does not affect the waking world, but injuries sustained are real.  (Remember Carlinya getting her hair burned off when she was in Tower in TAR with Elayne and Nynaeve?  Egwene was surprised to see her with short hair when she arrives in Salidar.)  And Rand was in TAR physically.  Is it possible that this is a set-up for Rand getting his hand back by entering TAR in the flesh, imagining his hand not being gone, and then stepping back out with his hand intact?  This seems out there even for me and I'm the one writing it. I'll concede that getting his hand back might not be where this is going, but I think the other characaters commenting that he looks harder after the encounter with Rahvin is tied to Rand's reforming the his own image as hard when Rahvin tried to hmake him fade away.

 

 

 

Wow.  I don't see how that couldn't work.  Excellent pickup.  M

[mossman87]

I don't post here much, but I occasionally lurk and I have thought on what this thing could be.  I've never seen this discussed anywhere before.  

 

In tFoH, in the last chapter when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR, they are both there in the flesh.  Rahvin tries to make Rand fade away and stops it be forming the image of himself as whole again.  At first the image he forms of himself is Lew Therin, but he is able to stop that and reform it as he sees himself.  I don't have book in front of me so I can't give an exact quote, but when he is reforming the image of Rand al'Thor, he describes himself as "hard."  Afterwards, people that haven't seen him since before that, comment on how he looks harder.  

 

I believe that he subtley changed his physical appearance when this happened.  What happens in TAR does not affect the waking world, but injuries sustained are real.  (Remember Carlinya getting her hair burned off when she was in Tower in TAR with Elayne and Nynaeve?  Egwene was surprised to see her with short hair when she arrives in Salidar.)  And Rand was in TAR physically.  Is it possible that this is a set-up for Rand getting his hand back by entering TAR in the flesh, imagining his hand not being gone, and then stepping back out with his hand intact?  This seems out there even for me and I'm the one writing it. I'll concede that getting his hand back might not be where this is going, but I think the other characaters commenting that he looks harder after the encounter with Rahvin is tied to Rand's reforming the his own image as hard when Rahvin tried to hmake him fade away.

 

 

 

What if Nynaeve's way of healing death is going into TAR and pulling a now dead Rand out the same way she saw Moggy do to Birgitte?  :P

 

I don't think we talk enough about what Moggy did to Birgitte, I don't think this is the detail, just wanted to mention it as we've essentially seen a way to 'heal death' for books now.

[metria31183]

What if Nynaeve's way of healing death is going into TAR and pulling a now dead Rand out the same way she saw Moggy do to Birgitte?

 

Would Rand be Rand if she did this though?  Birgitte remembers all of her lives in TAR and she has had hundreds of them.  Would Rand be like this and not be Rand al'Thor, but instead be someone else who remembers being Rand al'Thor?

[NetSlider]

I don't post here much, but I occasionally lurk and I have thought on what this thing could be.  I've never seen this discussed anywhere before.  

 

In tFoH, in the last chapter when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR, they are both there in the flesh.  Rahvin tries to make Rand fade away and stops it be forming the image of himself as whole again.  At first the image he forms of himself is Lew Therin, but he is able to stop that and reform it as he sees himself.  I don't have book in front of me so I can't give an exact quote, but when he is reforming the image of Rand al'Thor, he describes himself as "hard."  Afterwards, people that haven't seen him since before that, comment on how he looks harder.  

 

I believe that he subtley changed his physical appearance when this happened.  What happens in TAR does not affect the waking world, but injuries sustained are real.  (Remember Carlinya getting her hair burned off when she was in Tower in TAR with Elayne and Nynaeve?  Egwene was surprised to see her with short hair when she arrives in Salidar.)  And Rand was in TAR physically.  Is it possible that this is a set-up for Rand getting his hand back by entering TAR in the flesh, imagining his hand not being gone, and then stepping back out with his hand intact?  This seems out there even for me and I'm the one writing it. I'll concede that getting his hand back might not be where this is going, but I think the other characaters commenting that he looks harder after the encounter with Rahvin is tied to Rand's reforming the his own image as hard when Rahvin tried to hmake him fade away.

 

 

 

WOW indeed! Never thought of it

[NetSlider]

What if Nynaeve's way of healing death is going into TAR and pulling a now dead Rand out the same way she saw Moggy do to Birgitte?

 

Would Rand be Rand if she did this though?  Birgitte remembers all of her lives in TAR and she has had hundreds of them.  Would Rand be like this and not be Rand al'Thor, but instead be someone else who remembers being Rand al'Thor?

 

Her memory actually fades. I think the "essence" of the soul is the same in every life.

[metria31183]

Her memory actually fades. I think the "essence" of the soul is the same in every life.

 

Her memories faded after Moghedian pulled her out of TAR.  While she was still in TAR, she could remember them.

[NetSlider]

I don't post here much, but I occasionally lurk and I have thought on what this thing could be.  I've never seen this discussed anywhere before.  

 

In tFoH, in the last chapter when Rand is fighting Rahvin in TAR, they are both there in the flesh.  Rahvin tries to make Rand fade away and stops it be forming the image of himself as whole again.  At first the image he forms of himself is Lew Therin, but he is able to stop that and reform it as he sees himself.  I don't have book in front of me so I can't give an exact quote, but when he is reforming the image of Rand al'Thor, he describes himself as "hard."  Afterwards, people that haven't seen him since before that, comment on how he looks harder.  

 

I believe that he subtley changed his physical appearance when this happened.  What happens in TAR does not affect the waking world, but injuries sustained are real.  (Remember Carlinya getting her hair burned off when she was in Tower in TAR with Elayne and Nynaeve?  Egwene was surprised to see her with short hair when she arrives in Salidar.)  And Rand was in TAR physically.  Is it possible that this is a set-up for Rand getting his hand back by entering TAR in the flesh, imagining his hand not being gone, and then stepping back out with his hand intact?  This seems out there even for me and I'm the one writing it. I'll concede that getting his hand back might not be where this is going, but I think the other characaters commenting that he looks harder after the encounter with Rahvin is tied to Rand's reforming the his own image as hard when Rahvin tried to hmake him fade away.

 

 

 

Another thought - does that mean and Rand can actually finally get rid of those two wounds? Or maybe even break the link with Moridin? How far can this idea be taking as far as making a "new" reality in the waking world when it comes to the body?  very interesting...

Off subject, but related - in the EotW Rand gets a splinter in his finger from TAR but then it vanishes into ash when he pulls out of his flesh. And yet in tSR the Slayer, for some reason, does not take an arrow to the real world when Perrin shoots him (arrow drops to the ground and Slayer with Raven vanishes)is that a hint of some sort?

[mossman87]

What if Nynaeve's way of healing death is going into TAR and pulling a now dead Rand out the same way she saw Moggy do to Birgitte?

 

Would Rand be Rand if she did this though?  Birgitte remembers all of her lives in TAR and she has had hundreds of them.  Would Rand be like this and not be Rand al'Thor, but instead be someone else who remembers being Rand al'Thor?

 

They go by the last person they were, like Hawkwing seeing Rand's soul was LTT in TGH.  There was a Q&A about this I'll try to find sometime today when I get the time.

[metria31183]

Another thought - does that mean and Rand can actually finally get rid of those two wounds? Or maybe even break the link with Moridin? How far can this idea be taking as far as making a "new" reality in the waking world when it comes to the body?  very interesting...

Off subject, but related - in the EotW Rand gets a splinter in his finger from TAR but then it vanishes into ash when he pulls out of his flesh. And yet in tSR the Slayer, for some reason, does not take an arrow to the real world when Perrin shoots him (arrow drops to the ground and Slayer with Raven vanishes)is that a hint of some sort?

 

Hmmmm.  The splinter was part of TAR that was brought into the physical world, as was the arrow that Perrin shot Slayer with.  What we are talking about with Rand is a physical body (not the reflection of the body, but the actual physical body) brought into the dream world.  I think that makes the difference.

[NetSlider]

Her memory actually fades. I think the "essence" of the soul is the same in every life.

 

Her memories faded after Moghedian pulled her out of TAR.  While she was still in TAR, she could remember them.

 

Yes, her specific memories of specific actions and lives fade. But as far as she goes, well...the is still Bhergita(sp). I always thought that the soul is one. In the last book Rand knows that there was no LTT in his head as a separate entity. Instead it was memories of his soul of his previous self. So there is no multiple Rand's but instead a perception of the current self in the current time with the memories of the past that may (or may not) fade.

[NetSlider]

Another thought - does that mean and Rand can actually finally get rid of those two wounds? Or maybe even break the link with Moridin? How far can this idea be taking as far as making a "new" reality in the waking world when it comes to the body?  very interesting...

Off subject, but related - in the EotW Rand gets a splinter in his finger from TAR but then it vanishes into ash when he pulls out of his flesh. And yet in tSR the Slayer, for some reason, does not take an arrow to the real world when Perrin shoots him (arrow drops to the ground and Slayer with Raven vanishes)is that a hint of some sort?

 

Hmmmm.  The splinter was part of TAR that was brought into the physical world, as was the arrow that Perrin shot Slayer with.  What we are talking about with Rand is a physical body (not the reflection of the body, but the actual physical body) brought into the dream world.  I think that makes the difference.

 

I agree, but splinter and arrow were part of a physical bodies (actually, slayer was in physical body, rand was in sleeping).

[metria31183]

I agree, but splinter and arrow were part of a physical bodies (actually, slayer was in physical body, rand was in sleeping).

 

This may be splitting hairs, but they were not part of the physical bodies.  They foreign objects that ended up lodged inside one reflection of a physical body (Rand) and one physical body (Slayer).

[Tathel]

I don't recall if this has already been mentioned or if it wasn't brought up during book 4-6 but what about the fact that cats really like Aes Sedai and i believe dogs react to aes sedai like they do to cats.

 

I was just looking over book 11 and they mention cats gather where ever there is a large amount of aes sedai and i'm sure it had been mentioned much earlier in the series about the dog cat thing. Do we know if dogs favour asha'man?

 

I don't really see how this could play out being important unless it matters somehow with wolves but it is something very minor that i don't think has any crazy theories around it

[mossman87]

Her memory actually fades. I think the "essence" of the soul is the same in every life.

 

Her memories faded after Moghedian pulled her out of TAR.  While she was still in TAR, she could remember them.

 

Yes, her specific memories of specific actions and lives fade. But as far as she goes, well...the is still Bhergita(sp). I always thought that the soul is one. In the last book Rand knows that there was no LTT in his head as a separate entity. Instead it was memories of his soul of his previous self. So there is no multiple Rand's but instead a perception of the current self in the current time with the memories of the past that may (or may not) fade.

 

The soul's are one, though they can have different lives in each age their soul is the same, the gender stays the same as well.

For example in the next age, Rand's thread will be out there, though he may just be a farmer named Bob, unless the pattern needed it again to correct itself.

 

A good collection of heroes of the horn / some soul stuff Q&A with RJ: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_73dz7wfhgt

 

Edit:

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

[Dolphineus]

Rand will not be able to heal his hand by entering the world of dreams in the flesh.

 

Egwene traveled to Salidar by entering the world of dreams in the flesh.  She rode her phantom Bela, and made the pain from her beatings (meeting her toh with the Wise Ones) fade.  As soon as she stepped out of the world of dreams into the real world, the pain returned.