The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Dida]

I know I may have mentioned this before but I'll throw it out there on more time.  I really thing it has to do with the 3 oaths and the ageless look.  When sisters are stilled the ageless look vanishes and they appear quite younger.  They also sweat...  We know that ishy had something to do with the oaths...  it something that is constantly mentioned but no one really ever thinks about.  Very similar to Vin's earring.  Something put into effect by the badguys that everyone overlooks somehow now.  bat that around for a bit.

 

I dont really agree but there is something to be said for the Vin's Earing aspect of this idea--when stilled a woman looks different--not just herself without the Agelessness, but a different face.

 

Sounds more a kin to a woman's "slowed face" appears after being stilled. An "Agelessness" face is lost, while the underneath 'slowed face' appears in its place.

 

I know the gate Avi threw open to Seanchan lands (in tFoH) has been mentioned, but what about the people Rand and Avi encountered?  The Seeker (I forget her name) told Rand that those like him were honored and if he went with them so would he be as well.

 

Tuon's point of view in 'The Gathering Storm' book expressly mentions killing male channelers as quickly as possible, when they're found in Seanchan.  There is a prior Egeanin point of view elsewhere mentioning the same thing, as what Tuon said, that the Seanchan kill all male channelers.  They are not honored one bit in Seanchan, far from it. 

 

Source: The Gathering Storm book - Chapter 'A Halo of Darkness' - Tuon's pov with Rand, Nynaeve, Damer Flinn, Jahar, Corele and three Wise Ones at Falme

 

Of course, if the marath'damane was unsettling, then the two men who walked to the right of the Dragon were more so.  One, little more than a youth, wore his hair in braids tied with bells.  The other was an older man with white hair and a tanned face.  Despite the difference in their ages, both walked with the casual swagger of men well acquainted with battle.  And both wore black coats, sparkling pins on the high collars.  Asha'man, they were called.  Men who could channel.  Abominations best killed quickly.  In Seanchan, there had been a very few who--in their lust for an unanticipated edge--had tried to train these tsorov'ande Doon, these Black-Souled Tempests.  The fools had fallen quickly, often destroyed by the very tools that they sought to control.

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on March 07, 2010, 11:27:05 PM

Quote from: foillion on March 07, 2010, 10:42:47 PM

I know I may have mentioned this before but I'll throw it out there on more time.  I really thing it has to do with the 3 oaths and the ageless look.  When sisters are stilled the ageless look vanishes and they appear quite younger.  They also sweat...  We know that ishy had something to do with the oaths...  it something that is constantly mentioned but no one really ever thinks about.  Very similar to Vin's earring.  Something put into effect by the badguys that everyone overlooks somehow now.  bat that around for a bit.

 

 

I dont really agree but there is something to be said for the Vin's Earing aspect of this idea--when stilled a woman looks different--not just herself without the Agelessness, but a different face.

 

 

Sounds more a kin to a woman's "slowed face" appears after being stilled. An "Agelessness" face is lost, while the underneath 'slowed face' appears in its place.

 

Nope. A 'slowed face' is simply the same face of the woman not ageing as fast--we know this--the vast majority of Aes Sedai slow long before taking the Oaths without their facial features being altered.

 

Siuan and Leane are stated to appear different then they did prior to attaining the agelessness--they are not simple themselves appearing as young as they would due to slowing, and lacking the agelessness--they are altered.

 

 

[Dida]

 

Sounds more a kin to a woman's "slowed face" appears after being stilled. An "Agelessness" face is lost, while the underneath 'slowed face' appears in its place.

 

Nope. A 'slowed face' is simply the same face of the woman not ageing as fast--we know this--the vast majority of Aes Sedai slow long before taking the Oaths without their facial features being altered.

 

Siuan and Leane are stated to appear different then they did prior to attaining the agelessness--they are not simple themselves appearing as young as they would due to slowing, and lacking the agelessness--they are altered.

 

Is there proof for your position? Altered, not 'slowed'?

 

If I understood your view correctly, your pushing for a new category altogether?

 

 

 

Seems as if a Stilled woman is pushed back to the first time she slowed in appearance, really if anything.

 

 

Siuan, Leane are older than when they first took the Three Oaths on a Binder to become Aes Sedai, but there not that aged in chronological years all told. Siuan was born in 958 NE, which puts her around 42 years old. Leane Sharif is around the same age as Siuan is, up to a year or two older at most.   Throw in a "slowed" appearance and they could easily look to be in their early 20s.

 

Amys would be about the same age as Siuan actually, and she has a 'slowed' appearance.  Likewise, Windfinder Jorin din Jubai White Wing should be around the age as Siuan & Leane, 40's, after considering Jorin has grown daughters older than Elayne. (tSR book)

 

 

 

 

A thought experiment on "slowed appearance":

 

If a slowed female channel lives to upwards of 600+ years in a life span, it would seem to make sense that they would age physically roughly at one sixth the rate of a non-channeling female on average. So to die around 600 years old on average, assuming good health & luck.  

 

Siuan is 42 years old, so if one assumes that 22 years lived of that 42 years is taken at an one sixth rate; Siuan would look like 23.67 years old. (20 + 3.667 = 23.67).  I based this starting point, on when "slowing" appearance occurs; in Siuan's case if guesses at age 20. If one assumes an earlier date for Siuan's first touching Saidar as a sparker, say at age 15 to begin the slowing process, Siuan should look around 19.5 years old (Age 15 + (27 * .1666667 = 4.5); 15 + 4.5 = 19.5 years old) after being Stilled. In any case, Siuan looks a lot younger, just as Gareth Bryne mentions:

 

Source: The Fires of Heaven book - Chapter 28 'Trapped' - Gareth Bryne pov with Siuan in Salidar, Altara  

 

The bait in his trap stared at him levelly, strode across the floor until she stood so close that she had to crane her neck to stare up at him, and spoke in a low, furious voice. “Why did you do this? Why did you follow us? For a barn?”

 

“For an oath.” For a pair of blue eyes. Siuan Sanche could not be more than ten years younger than he, but it was hard to remember that she was Siuan Sanche while looking at a face nearer thirty years younger. The eyes were the same, though, deep blue and strong.

 

Gareth puts Siuan's appearance around her late teens to early twenties, which is in rough agreement of an one-sixth and/or one-seventh rate of physical aging, relative to non-channeling people.

 

An one-seventh rate assumption would assume a max life span of 700 years on average, not 600 years for a channeler. I'm thinking roughly of the eldest Kin's age known...which, I'd looking for exact age now.

 

 

Tuon, Talaan din Gelyn on the other hand each had begun to "slow" at an earlier Age than Siuan likely did though. Under 20 in both cases, for Tuon & Talaan din Gelyn.  When a young woman begins to channel the Power, that would set the lower bound Age for a slowing appearance to begin to occur. In Alivia's case at Age 13 or 14, when she was leashed with an a'dam the process would have begun, because Alivia would have begun channeling as a damane (Winter's Heart, Chapter 8 'Sea Folk and Kin').  

 

 

 

One might agree or disagree about the start point when this process begins for a given channeling woman whether 1st channeling and when slowing is obvious, or what the relative slowing rate is approximately for a given woman. Yes, numbers should vary within a set of ranges. However its seems that an one-sixth rate of Aging is the rough constant for an average channeler with good health, luck & 600 year life span, without Oaths on a Binder rod.        

[viscious]

Going along the lines of the slowed faces idea,

 

One thing that I seem to remember not ever being fully explained was the forsaken faces.  If I recall correctly they don't have the ageless look or the look of someone who has "slowed".  They just look completely normal, (or maybe i am wrong and that is what a slowed face looks like).

 

If I recall correctly, I believe one of the characters had an internal monologue pondering this. I don't remember what book even, so this might be completely off.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

 

[Netizen]

I'm re-reading book 5 TFoH at the moment and Nynaeve & Elayne are on the Riverserpent on the way to Salidar along with the refugees from Samara.

 

Nynaeve mentions that "Marigan" thinks that death can be healed. Nynaeve immediately dismisses it. It's only a very brief mention. But Nynaeve doesn't know that Marigan is really Moghedien.

 

Maybe this is a hint that death can be healed? It's certainly mentioned again - something along the lines of Nynaeve not being happy until she's healed someone 3 days dead.

 

The relevant passage is:

 

Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. [...] All she had ever wanted to do was to cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, [...] Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumour had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not.

[Sharaman]

Going along the lines of the slowed faces idea,

 

One thing that I seem to remember not ever being fully explained was the forsaken faces.   If I recall correctly they don't have the ageless look or the look of someone who has "slowed".  They just look completely normal, (or maybe i am wrong and that is what a slowed face looks like).

 

If I recall correctly, I believe one of the characters had an internal monologue pondering this. I don't remember what book even, so this might be completely off.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

No mystery about it.

The Chosen have slowed naturally - as have Aiel. Damane and the Kin.

There are several 300+ Kinswomen, Damane and Chosen who look middle-aged because they're roughly half-way through their natural lifespans.

The As Sedai use the Oath Rod, which cuts lifespan and stretches skin, preventing wrinkles.

So they look Ageless like they've had botox operations. 

 

[Caveman_Nick]

The As Sedai use the Oath Rod, which cuts lifespan and stretches skin, preventing wrinkles.

So they look Ageless like they've had botox operations. 

 

 

I think that henceforth this should be known as "Oathtox"

[mossman87]

I'm re-reading book 5 TFoH at the moment and Nynaeve & Elayne are on the Riverserpent on the way to Salidar along with the refugees from Samara.

 

Nynaeve mentions that "Marigan" thinks that death can be healed. Nynaeve immediately dismisses it. It's only a very brief mention. But Nynaeve doesn't know that Marigan is really Moghedien.

 

Maybe this is a hint that death can be healed? It's certainly mentioned again - something along the lines of Nynaeve not being happy until she's healed someone 3 days dead.

 

The relevant passage is:

 

Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. [...] All she had ever wanted to do was to cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, [...] Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumour had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not.

 

Yeah I've talked about this here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,54773.0.html

 

Who knows.

[saidarisnowtainted]

Perhaps it is the Dark One's seals. Not sure if this thought has been put forward. It was first touhed upon in the scope of books 4-6. Moiraine gives one to Rand and scrapes of a sliver. Taim gives Rand one when they first meet. Dobraine Taborwin and Davram Bashere (well, his wife) were both attacked by Darkfriends looking for it.

 

One thing of note is that when Taim first presents it to Rand in LoC, Rand notes that three seals are broken and three are broken, with the seventh still out there. He thinks, "Only four seals stood between humankind and the Dark One. Four, if the last was still whole." However, those three are now the only intact ones.

 

If Tarmon Gai'din is to basically be the War of Power 2.0, the Dark One's power would need to be the same as it was in the Age of Legends which would imply the Great Seals would be broken and the bore opened.

 

i'm just throwing this thouht out there based on this post:

 

what if the BUT is that the seals are all FAKES

 

OR

 

what if given the fact that they are all crumbling cuendillar, they are technically ALREADY BROKEN?

[porus]

Why hide a fake seal in the Eye of the World with the real dragon banner and the real Horn of Valere? I do not think the seals are fake. The DO's influence has increased progressively throughout the series as more seals are broken. Supergirls also note how their seal radiates a feeling of evil while it is crumbling, but once broken has no such aura. All evidence suggests the seals are genuine, and that they are functional until actually fractured end to end.

[saidarisnowtainted]

Why hide a fake seal in the Eye of the World with the real dragon banner and the real Horn of Valere? I do not think the seals are fake. The DO's influence has increased progressively throughout the series as more seals are broken. Supergirls also note how their seal radiates a feeling of evil while it is crumbling, but once broken has no such aura. All evidence suggests the seals are genuine, and that they are functional until actually fractured end to end.

 

 

1. The purpose for the Eye remains unknown, but regardless of that--

2. The seal could have been fully intact when it was hidden there.

3. One can argue that the DO influenced since the turning of the age via Ishy’s actions, the effecting world culture, events and history, which, like a snowball rolling down a hill, has progressed exponentially to date.  Perhaps as the seals decayed.  maybe the eye was the only thing keeping this one seal functioning???

4. Good point on the supergirls, but there is no objective explanation for what they experienced.  This could be the RJ theme of making incorrect assumptions. 

a. While the supergirl point supports your argument, I would greatly appreciate you providing further evidence that 1) the seals are genuine; and 2) they are functional until actually fractured end to end.  If you are correct, and my idea is as weak as you suggest, there should be more evidence to support your argument.

I hope I’m not coming off as adversarial!  I’m not!  I like debate and I want to be disproven so I don’t waste time on an incorrect theorty

 

[Charlz Guybon]

After reading the thread on this over at the 13 depository forums I like the idea that the dream where ravens sink into Mat's shoulders is more literal than we've thought and that Mat is gonna be tattooed with Ravens somehow, probably by the Finns.

[Calderis]

Going along the lines of the slowed faces idea,

 

One thing that I seem to remember not ever being fully explained was the forsaken faces.   If I recall correctly they don't have the ageless look or the look of someone who has "slowed".  They just look completely normal, (or maybe i am wrong and that is what a slowed face looks like).

 

If I recall correctly, I believe one of the characters had an internal monologue pondering this. I don't remember what book even, so this might be completely off.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

 

 

At the time that point of view was (don't remember who it was) the only real channelers we'd seen had been Aes Sedai, and they were just wondering why they hadn't achieved the ageless look. Slowing just looks normal because they age more slowly.

 

And on that note, how can anyone have read this series and not realize that the "stilled" face is different? Everytime someone who knew Siuan meets here for the first time they don't recognize her, same with Leane. If it just reverted to slowing it would be a "young" face. which would mean the same face, but your able to guess at an age. Hell the "ageless" look is something that's extremely subtle in itself, only people who have been around Aes Sedai regularly even pick up on it. It seems apparent because we're exposed to it so much, but back in the first few books it was remarked repeatedly how many people weren't able to pick out an Aes Sedai face.

 

The drastic change in Siuan's face, enough that Egwene did not recognize her for the first time she saw her (in TAR with the wise ones) until she spoke, shows that it isn't just a reversion in age. Gareth Bryne didn't recognize her, and he had a VERY memorable experience with her. The sisters in Saladar didn't recognize her at first, and some of them knew her as a novice and would have at least remarked how she "looked like a young Siuan." That's not how it happened tho.

[Packar]

Not that I want to spoil anyones fun here, but when Brandon said that this BUT was more important than who killed Asmodean, do we know if he meant more important than Robert Jordan intended Asmodeans killer to be, or more important than we consider who killed Asmo to be? I only ask as I seem to remember a quote from RJ or Brandon stating that the identity of who killed Asmodean was never expected to be anywhere near as big a thing as it has become...

[shadowkiller_001]

Not that I want to spoil anyones fun here, but when Brandon said that this BUT was more important than who killed Asmodean, do we know if he meant more important than Robert Jordan intended Asmodeans killer to be, or more important than we consider who killed Asmo to be? I only ask as I seem to remember a quote from RJ or Brandon stating that the identity of who killed Asmodean was never expected to be anywhere near as big a thing as it has become...

 

I think he meant more important than Asmo in terms of overall plot significance.

[lillcheese]

Going along the lines of the slowed faces idea,

 

One thing that I seem to remember not ever being fully explained was the forsaken faces.   If I recall correctly they don't have the ageless look or the look of someone who has "slowed".  They just look completely normal, (or maybe i am wrong and that is what a slowed face looks like).

 

If I recall correctly, I believe one of the characters had an internal monologue pondering this. I don't remember what book even, so this might be completely off.

 

Just throwing it out there.

 

 

 

At the time that point of view was (don't remember who it was) the only real channelers we'd seen had been Aes Sedai, and they were just wondering why they hadn't achieved the ageless look. Slowing just looks normal because they age more slowly.

 

And on that note, how can anyone have read this series and not realize that the "stilled" face is different? Everytime someone who knew Siuan meets here for the first time they don't recognize her, same with Leane. If it just reverted to slowing it would be a "young" face. which would mean the same face, but your able to guess at an age. Hell the "ageless" look is something that's extremely subtle in itself, only people who have been around Aes Sedai regularly even pick up on it. It seems apparent because we're exposed to it so much, but back in the first few books it was remarked repeatedly how many people weren't able to pick out an Aes Sedai face.

 

The drastic change in Siuan's face, enough that Egwene did not recognize her for the first time she saw her (in TAR with the wise ones) until she spoke, shows that it isn't just a reversion in age. Gareth Bryne didn't recognize her, and he had a VERY memorable experience with her. The sisters in Saladar didn't recognize her at first, and some of them knew her as a novice and would have at least remarked how she "looked like a young Siuan." That's not how it happened tho.

 

I would like to second this, except for the part about Gareth and Egwene recognizing Siuan.  They only knew her as Amyrlin. 

 

If Siuan and Leane had simply reverted to their own youthful faces, they would have been recognized by any sisters who knew them as Novices or Accepted. Sheriam and Siuan were Accepted together, so when they showed up in Salidar Siuan at least should have been recognized.  She wasn't.  Both she and Leane had to answer lots of questions to prove their identities. 

[Blackhoof]

People wouldn't be able to recognise a 20 years younger version of their childhood friends, unless they have flawless memory. especially if they knew the person recently when they had their old face.

[iferna1]

I wonder if it is anything to do with Aviendha's trouble forming gateways. If i remember correctly the first gateway running away from Rand was in book 4 and it has been mentioned on and off ever since.

 

Apologies if this has been discussed, the thread is just too long now

 

That is an interesting idea - as I've been doing my reread and saw how Avi is so frustrated with her gateways since she did it a different way the first time I keep hoping that at some point she'll remember her first weave. Maybe something bad will be about to happen to her (or more likely to get a response from her if it is Rand or Elayne that's in danger), and that will trigger her to do the same thing again without thinking, and then she'll know it.

 

But I don't think it's the BUT because I don't really see how there is any sort of a puzzle in it. She did the weave one way the first time, and we already know that if you learn a weave one way it is much more difficult to then try and learn to do it a different way.

 

I just wonder if her first gateway isn't doing exactly what we thought it was. i.e. not the same as a normal gateway

 

I have seen some brief discussions somewhere that it may have gone back/forward in time briefly but nothing convincing. Basically i just have a hunch that we have been hit over the head about Aviendha's trouble forming gateways for it to lead to nothing. I either see it leading to;

 

a)Avi reforms the original gateway and it does something cool (go back in time to save Rand, etc.)

b)Avi has to form a gateway in a hurry and herinability to form it easily gets her in trouble.

 

I feel like i'm clutching at strws but i do think its significant somehow. But with RJ just about any detail could either be of great significance or just minor worldbuilding or both

 

how about her ability to form a gateway without being taught in the first place . couple that with her angreal recognition ability  . i was under the impression that a gateway was a rather complex weave , not something that would be randomly produced .

[porus]

I think Avi's dire need to escape allowed her to reinvent traveling. Egwene also rediscovered traveling pretty much all on her own as well. While it would be cool if Avi had some secret AoL knowledge, I think in this case she simply made the gateway intuitively as a result of her extreme need and terror.

 

IMO the more intriguing question in regards 3rd-agers knowing AoL weaves is Moraine. This can't be the BUT because it's from TEoTW but we still don't know how she learned balefire. That is a question I would like answered even more than who killed Asmo.

[Dreamwalker]

IMO the more intriguing question in regards 3rd-agers knowing AoL weaves is Moraine. This can't be the BUT because it's from TEoTW but we still don't know how she learned balefire. That is a question I would like answered even more than who killed Asmo.

 

I suspect she learned it from Adeleas and Vandene, or at least from some of the manuscripts she studies when she visits them. She doesn't use balefire until after her visit with them, but that's not very definitive proof at all, so mostly it's just a hunch.  ;)

[Sharaman]

In any case, Moiraine uses Balefire in Book III, so it's out of range.

 

[bronnt]

IMO the more intriguing question in regards 3rd-agers knowing AoL weaves is Moraine. This can't be the BUT because it's from TEoTW but we still don't know how she learned balefire. That is a question I would like answered even more than who killed Asmo.

 

I suspect she learned it from Adeleas and Vandene, or at least from some of the manuscripts she studies when she visits them. She doesn't use balefire until after her visit with them, but that's not very definitive proof at all, so mostly it's just a hunch.  ;)

 

I suspect Vandene taught her after the incident with the Draghkar.  It's confirmed that balefire is a secret weave of the Green Ajah-all Ajahs have them.  That's how Cadsuane knows what balefire is when she sees Rand use it in ACoS.

 

I feel confident that's how it happened, though Moiraine might have needed to do some art twisting.

[iferna1]

I think Avi's dire need to escape allowed her to reinvent traveling. Egwene also rediscovered traveling pretty much all on her own as well. While it would be cool if Avi had some secret AoL knowledge, I think in this case she simply made the gateway intuitively as a result of her extreme need and terror.

 

IMO the more intriguing question in regards 3rd-agers knowing AoL weaves is Moraine. This can't be the BUT because it's from TEoTW but we still don't know how she learned balefire. That is a question I would like answered even more than who killed Asmo.

 

I dont believe Avi has any actual knowledge from the AoL , her ability with ter'angreal seems to come from contact with the items and then intuitively knowing what it does . to me it sounds like a talent . Could she then also have a similar ability with weaves ? i am unsure about this but i thought Egwene was taught traveling by the other supergirls in TAR after they learned it from Moggy ....

[Karasien]

IIRC Egwene actually asks Rand about traveling, and Egewene kind of figures out how to do it on her own, first into TAR then full traveling.  I Remember because it was the one weave Nyn and Elayne didnt think of and that Eg was actually proud of, since it was her own.  I could be mistaken though.

[Sharaman]

Yes, Egwene asks Rand about Travel, realises the Saidin method won't work for her and figures out from her experiments with TAR (the method she used to get to Salidar), how she can Travel with the Saidar method.

She demonstrates this mode of Travel to Moggy, who is trying to avoid giving the weave to Elayne-Nyn.