The State of the Light and Dark Post tGS. (Full Spoilers)

[Owners.Inc]

Well...ok...I give...its prob 100 million if not more. Shouldn't there be more women/men who can channel though? remember though that large stretches of land are unoccupied. Almoth Plain, the Blight etc. so comparing in terms of size itself is a little impractical. That's possibly balanced for the unaccounted Sea Folk isles though.

[Charlz Guybon]

Turn a corner? More like they went from strong position, to an almost unbeatable one.

Has soon as I saw this thread I know that TGS would have done nothing to reconcile the different viewpoints here. If anything it's exacerbated them. I certainly think things are worse off now than they were before.

 

I believe the Forsaken aside from Moridin don't really matter, and even he isn't that important. So Semirhage and Graendal dieing doesn't sway me in the least.

 

The famine has vastly accelerated and there is now open war between the Seanchan the followers of the Dragon. In Arad Doman alone 100,000 Seanchan and 50,000 Domani were killed in one battle. These are soldiers who will be desperately needed when the Trollocs pour south by the millions.

 

The Trollocs are not important in and of themselves of course, however it will distract Rand from what is truly important and that is his one on one battle with the Dark One. A battle he has no idea how to wage, and one he may be at a disadvantage at now because he has channeled the True Power.

 

Given the disappearance of the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower it would seem that Taim is ready to make his move. And while many Black sisters were killed, the majority have escaped and will spread across the land sowing chaos and acting as Dreadlords.

[randfandom]

i don't what to turn this into another Do underdog thread, but it is something i feel strongly about.

 

No problems, it is a debate and, I hope, civilized... :-)

 

Points 1. and 2. go together I believe. BS has recently indicated that, in reference to the prophecy of the Dragon being linked to the land, that the food spoilage may let up a little after Rand's sanity returns to him.

 

I have not heard a direct quote from BS, but I am basing my assessment on Rand's orders to feed a million people in Bandar Eban alone. Min had a viewing of mass death rates in Tear back in KoD and from her discomfort at looking at the people in Bandar Eban, I expect the same to happen there.  If a million people are in Bandar Eban, then Tear's population is probably on that order as well.

Since there is no reason to assume starvation or plague will be limited to just these two countries, and we know from the prologue that nothing is growing anywhere, it's a safe bet that there will be mass starvation, on the order of millions of people - even if some crops will start appearing - it's simply too little too late.

 

You also seem to neglect that the last battle might not be so far away. It might happen in a month's time. Yes, if ALL the food in the WORLD goes spoilt at once right now, Rand is in deep trouble. But ask yourself, could that really happen?  What kind of story would that make from an author's and reader's POV? A build up to a battle but the hero starves before fighting his evil enemy?

 

As for all food spoiling at once - well, we've seen it happen already in Bandar Eban.

Obviously there will be millions who won't die of starvation, but they probably won't exactly get enough food and the chaos due to starvation will affect the living. People will literally sell their soul to the Dark One to feed their families, and who can blame them? You don't need to starve an entire population to death before it completely disintegrates.

 

And I don't know how long till the Last Battle. My hunch is that Eleyne's babies (and Aviendha's future ones?) will be reborn around that time, which puts it off by many months, even accounting for twins usually coming early. Of course, time will probably also start going through the same shifts as the physical world is going through as the Pattern is breaking apart.

 

I'm a little skeptical about the millions starving bit. I'm not sure about the population of Randland, but its not more than 10 million I believe. This is not my guess btw, but something I'm taking from another TGS thread based on the number of channelers available to each culture.

 

I doubt you can extrapolate based on the number of channellers, since most women did not choose to go and be tested and only a handful are born with the spark. The great majority of potential channellers not from Seanchan or Aiel probably never get identified.

We know from tGS (Rand's POV I think) that there are around a million people in Bandar Eban - and this is just one city. I believe there are tens of millions total, maybe as many as the 100M that others are quoting.

 

With the largely irrelevant exception of arad doman, food spoilage has been widely documented and the world is arguably on the brink of starvation, but it is not starving yet. The people in the seanchan lands seem content enough as Rand notes, and as mentioned above, the Aiel, Borderlanders and other seem well enough. I mention these since they are likely to be the main fighting infantry forces at TG.

 

A million dying of starvation is hardly "irrelevant", and things will get worse as the Pattern breaks more and more, even if Rand's improvement can help slow the process. We don't know enough of the state of long term supplies in Ebou Dar but near Far Madding crops are not growing, as Nynaeve notes when they ride there.

 

The bubbles of evil are increasing in frequency yes, but even at their most vicious, they've only engulfed a town of harmless farmers.

 

When they started they only attacked Taveren. Now they attack random towns everywhere. What will happen next?

 

I don't see the constant darkness as a such a major advantage to the trollocs. its not pitch black - there's enough light for both sides to see in. and the depression is more likely due to many other things than the weather. Maybe you feel this is a major point, but I don't really agree.

 

It's getting darker all the time, so my guess that it will get far worse - remember the original book title was "A memory of Light". Crops need sunshine to grow. If it's dark all the time, nothing can grow.

 

Skipping ahead a little, I don't think most of the Ba escaped. In fact, I think egwene got most of them and some escaped.

 

There were over 200 in total on Verin's list, and probably 10-20 she did not catch. Egwene got 50 in the rebel camp, but hardly any in the White Tower, and none of the ones who were not in the area. Add the 8 or 9 Elayne captured and the one Rand kills - we are still well short of anywhere near 100 captured, so the majority are still at large.

 

I don't want to underestimate the importance of a united cleansed Tower - it is a major blow to the Dark One, but enough bad things are happening to more than balance that.

 

When you talk of Rand's allies, who did you have in mind? The only one Rand really takes a dump on in this book is Tam, Rhuarc, Bael and Cadsuane.

 

It's not who he insults personally but he is definitely not a leader people want to follow or love, like Mat, Perrin or Egwene. He breaks his bargains with each of his allies constantly (Ituralde, Aiel maidens, Sea Folk, etc.). I can see the Aiel clans that sat on the fense in FoH (Mandelein, etc.) losing hope and breaking off. Ituralde has been betrayed, and Bashere (much as I like him) is suspicious anyway, even without Min's viewings. If the Dark One's victory seems more and more certain, more people will move to the perceived winning side. Mind you, Rand is my favorite character, so it's sad to see this happening, but that's the way it's going.

 

Those who seem unsure of Rand's mind are likely to be appeased by his new outlook on life. Similarly, the Seanchan are more likely to come together with a Dragon who does not appear so scary and cruel. The grouping of the Seanchan and Rand would effectively be the DO's forces' death sentence.

 

I just don't see him coming back to a big sirupy apology scene, satisfying as that may be to read. I think the Dragonmount scene is a setup for a crisis that will erupt in that area. Too many "Three women" viewings and foretellings in this book, not to mention Perrin again feeling Taveren pull strongly (last time that happened he showed up in time to save Rand from his AS kidnappers). Something will happen to delay his return to his allies - perhaps Alana will die, or he'll run into Gawyn who'll try to kill him, or Fain again. Maybe he will end up in the White Tower for massive Healing. That's my guess anyway - obviously I could be wrong...

 

Yes, Rand does not know how to seal the bore - that is very much in the DO's favour. After all we can't win a fight if contact with the enemy isn't allowed right? Bear in mind though, that Rand presumably now has access to most/all of LTT's memories and knows more about sealing the bore than anyone.

 

Well he knows what did not work... He still has no clue what will.

 

Lastly, the Trollocs. We are told there are thousands upon thousands of Trollocs in the Blight. But plenty of food? The Blight has been quiet for months - not even raids - so where is this food coming from?

 

They are growing food in the blight, based on the prologue and there are all these strange animals in the Blight.

 

[Muad Cheade]

I have not heard a direct quote from BS, but I am basing my assessment on Rand's orders to feed a million people in Bandar Eban alone. Min had a viewing of mass death rates in Tear back in KoD and from her discomfort at looking at the people in Bandar Eban, I expect the same to happen there.  If a million people are in Bandar Eban, then Tear's population is probably on that order as well.

Since there is no reason to assume starvation or plague will be limited to just these two countries, and we know from the prologue that nothing is growing anywhere, it's a safe bet that there will be mass starvation, on the order of millions of people - even if some crops will start appearing - it's simply too little too late.

 

As for all food spoiling at once - well, we've seen it happen already in Bandar Eban.

Obviously there will be millions who won't die of starvation, but they probably won't exactly get enough food and the chaos due to starvation will affect the living. People will literally sell their soul to the Dark One to feed their families, and who can blame them? You don't need to starve an entire population to death before it completely disintegrates.

 

You have a very good point. In KoD, when Rand goes  to Tear, Min sees viewings of famine everywhere, and Tear is now one of the most stable and major cities on the continent. That implies that the famine will be widespread and continue to grow.

 

Also in KoD, when Logain meets with the Sea Folk, he tells them to prepare to bring enough food to feed one million people in Bandar Eban. That says two things.

-1). Now that all the food in that city that was brought on the ships are spoilt, well over a million people (more people came once they heard of the food) are now starving.

-2). Bandar Eban was experiencing famine, civil unrest and warfare long before Rand arrived. If there were one million people there despite those problems, there must be well over that in stable cities like Illian, Caemlyn, Tar Valon, Tear and possibly Cairhien.

 

The famine also affects the armies of the Light. How do you expect your soldiers to face and fight the living nightmares that are Shadowspawn with scant supplies and food? Even a Great Captain like Ituralde, knew his fight against the Seanchan would end in defeat because of that.

[saidarisnowtainted]

I've suspected that the last battle wasnt actually a singular event--more like the end of the world starts slowly and progresses exponentially and culminates. 

 

The DO's need to sow Chaos throughout the world seems to support this.  Thinking further, perhaps this is based on Rand's connection and physical affect on the world. 

 

Makes sense that the DO wants Rand to live.  Without Rand being aware of his direct effect on the world, he plays into the DO's hands based on world events.  All the fighting, hardening, loss, despair, etc that weighs on Rand helps decompose the world as we know it.

[Owners.Inc]

i don't what to turn this into another Do underdog thread, but it is something i feel strongly about.

 

No problems, it is a debate and, I hope, civilized... :-)

 

Points 1. and 2. go together I believe. BS has recently indicated that, in reference to the prophecy of the Dragon being linked to the land, that the food spoilage may let up a little after Rand's sanity returns to him.

 

I have not heard a direct quote from BS, but I am basing my assessment on Rand's orders to feed a million people in Bandar Eban alone. Min had a viewing of mass death rates in Tear back in KoD and from her discomfort at looking at the people in Bandar Eban, I expect the same to happen there.  If a million people are in Bandar Eban, then Tear's population is probably on that order as well.

Since there is no reason to assume starvation or plague will be limited to just these two countries, and we know from the prologue that nothing is growing anywhere, it's a safe bet that there will be mass starvation, on the order of millions of people - even if some crops will start appearing - it's simply too little too late.

 

You also seem to neglect that the last battle might not be so far away. It might happen in a month's time. Yes, if ALL the food in the WORLD goes spoilt at once right now, Rand is in deep trouble. But ask yourself, could that really happen?  What kind of story would that make from an author's and reader's POV? A build up to a battle but the hero starves before fighting his evil enemy?

 

As for all food spoiling at once - well, we've seen it happen already in Bandar Eban.

Obviously there will be millions who won't die of starvation, but they probably won't exactly get enough food and the chaos due to starvation will affect the living. People will literally sell their soul to the Dark One to feed their families, and who can blame them? You don't need to starve an entire population to death before it completely disintegrates.

 

And I don't know how long till the Last Battle. My hunch is that Eleyne's babies (and Aviendha's future ones?) will be reborn around that time, which puts it off by many months, even accounting for twins usually coming early. Of course, time will probably also start going through the same shifts as the physical world is going through as the Pattern is breaking apart.

 

I'm a little skeptical about the millions starving bit. I'm not sure about the population of Randland, but its not more than 10 million I believe. This is not my guess btw, but something I'm taking from another TGS thread based on the number of channelers available to each culture.

 

I doubt you can extrapolate based on the number of channellers, since most women did not choose to go and be tested and only a handful are born with the spark. The great majority of potential channellers not from Seanchan or Aiel probably never get identified.

We know from tGS (Rand's POV I think) that there are around a million people in Bandar Eban - and this is just one city. I believe there are tens of millions total, maybe as many as the 100M that others are quoting.

 

With the largely irrelevant exception of arad doman, food spoilage has been widely documented and the world is arguably on the brink of starvation, but it is not starving yet. The people in the seanchan lands seem content enough as Rand notes, and as mentioned above, the Aiel, Borderlanders and other seem well enough. I mention these since they are likely to be the main fighting infantry forces at TG.

 

A million dying of starvation is hardly "irrelevant", and things will get worse as the Pattern breaks more and more, even if Rand's improvement can help slow the process. We don't know enough of the state of long term supplies in Ebou Dar but near Far Madding crops are not growing, as Nynaeve notes when they ride there.

 

The bubbles of evil are increasing in frequency yes, but even at their most vicious, they've only engulfed a town of harmless farmers.

 

When they started they only attacked Taveren. Now they attack random towns everywhere. What will happen next?

 

I don't see the constant darkness as a such a major advantage to the trollocs. its not pitch black - there's enough light for both sides to see in. and the depression is more likely due to many other things than the weather. Maybe you feel this is a major point, but I don't really agree.

 

It's getting darker all the time, so my guess that it will get far worse - remember the original book title was "A memory of Light". Crops need sunshine to grow. If it's dark all the time, nothing can grow.

 

Skipping ahead a little, I don't think most of the Ba escaped. In fact, I think egwene got most of them and some escaped.

 

There were over 200 in total on Verin's list, and probably 10-20 she did not catch. Egwene got 50 in the rebel camp, but hardly any in the White Tower, and none of the ones who were not in the area. Add the 8 or 9 Elayne captured and the one Rand kills - we are still well short of anywhere near 100 captured, so the majority are still at large.

 

I don't want to underestimate the importance of a united cleansed Tower - it is a major blow to the Dark One, but enough bad things are happening to more than balance that.

 

When you talk of Rand's allies, who did you have in mind? The only one Rand really takes a dump on in this book is Tam, Rhuarc, Bael and Cadsuane.

 

It's not who he insults personally but he is definitely not a leader people want to follow or love, like Mat, Perrin or Egwene. He breaks his bargains with each of his allies constantly (Ituralde, Aiel maidens, Sea Folk, etc.). I can see the Aiel clans that sat on the fense in FoH (Mandelein, etc.) losing hope and breaking off. Ituralde has been betrayed, and Bashere (much as I like him) is suspicious anyway, even without Min's viewings. If the Dark One's victory seems more and more certain, more people will move to the perceived winning side. Mind you, Rand is my favorite character, so it's sad to see this happening, but that's the way it's going.

 

Those who seem unsure of Rand's mind are likely to be appeased by his new outlook on life. Similarly, the Seanchan are more likely to come together with a Dragon who does not appear so scary and cruel. The grouping of the Seanchan and Rand would effectively be the DO's forces' death sentence.

 

I just don't see him coming back to a big sirupy apology scene, satisfying as that may be to read. I think the Dragonmount scene is a setup for a crisis that will erupt in that area. Too many "Three women" viewings and foretellings in this book, not to mention Perrin again feeling Taveren pull strongly (last time that happened he showed up in time to save Rand from his AS kidnappers). Something will happen to delay his return to his allies - perhaps Alana will die, or he'll run into Gawyn who'll try to kill him, or Fain again. Maybe he will end up in the White Tower for massive Healing. That's my guess anyway - obviously I could be wrong...

 

Yes, Rand does not know how to seal the bore - that is very much in the DO's favour. After all we can't win a fight if contact with the enemy isn't allowed right? Bear in mind though, that Rand presumably now has access to most/all of LTT's memories and knows more about sealing the bore than anyone.

 

Well he knows what did not work... He still has no clue what will.

 

Lastly, the Trollocs. We are told there are thousands upon thousands of Trollocs in the Blight. But plenty of food? The Blight has been quiet for months - not even raids - so where is this food coming from?

 

They are growing food in the blight, based on the prologue and there are all these strange animals in the Blight.

 

 

You've posted a lot of sound points here, and to be truthful I don't have a retort for all of them, especially since some of them are matters of opinions in any case. But I'll give it shot - but before I do, I think the main reason I feel that the DO isn't winning might be because a lot of what you've mentioned is happening quietly in the background. I wouldn't blame people for equating the rise and fall of the Forsaken with the likelihood of the DO's victory. Its much easier to figure out who's winning when you see one side blast the other into timelessness. I'm also of the opinion that a lot of what you've mentioned - famine etc - will be the more literal part of the breaking Rand was to bring with him.

 

On the matter of the famine (cos Muad mentioned it too), I agree that the famine in Bandan Eban was bad. But I feel a lot of that was due to vry poor administration and potent Forsaken actively messing things up. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but I got the impression that before the whole food stock turned to crap in Bandar Eban, there enough to go around. Not a lot by any measure, and maybe not entirely enough even, but with rationing, they seemed to be making do. Another thing about this famine was that it would be easier to see its overall impact on the war if it had more of an effect on the main cast. Yes, it figures in their POVs often enough, but it seems like the main cast is impervious to it, and this basically colours readers impression of the importance of the famine (or at least it did mine). As for Logain's request for food, I think Rand was pre-empting the arrival of refugees to BE after he started distributing food. I agree that pre-stabilization BE had much fewer people than the other cities, but after Rand's food distribution plan, there was specific mention of there not being enough space for people in the city (I'll try to look for a quote, but don't take my word on it. Also there is also the massive numbers of Aiel to account for). What I'm saying is that there may have been more people in Be after Rand offered food, than in the other cities.

 

Your point about the Trollocs and Blight - I agree. No argument there - I had assumed (incorrectly) that Trollocs needed human meat. A pretty illogical assumption in retrospect, but there it is.

 

Back to Tear, I'm not sure of this (some details of TGS are already fuzzy), but I don't remember them mentioning the starvation in Tear so much in this book. It was certainly there in KOD, but that was explained by the rebels stealing grain.You're right that other cities are probably facing the same porblems, but I think that Cairhien and Caemlyn are relatively stable in that respect - Elayne's last POV didn't mention much about famine and there's no reason to assume that Cairhien is any worse or better with Rand's prolonged absence.

 

You're right that Rand won't come back and apologize - he wouldn't have done that even in EoTW. But I do feel that others around him will sense the change in him - sort of like how Tuon could sense the darkness in him - and change their attitudes towards him slowly. Yes, it may not happen that way - but it seems more likely. its been mentioned that each of the groups he's betrayed has their own rigid sense of honor. The Aiel honor of course is legendary, but the Sea Folk and Itrulade's honor is not far behind. I believe they will be unhappy with Rand, but they will not betray him. I don't personally think that Bashere is suspcious, but that's just one of those personal opinion things.

 

About the darkness - sorry, but I'm still not convinced. The need for light for crops will only manifest in the long run, and I think Rand will induce TG to start before that. Its likely that Avi and Elayne will be pregnant during the TG - though I can't say I like that if it'll keep them out of TG entirely. Similar argument against the bubbles of evil. What could happen next is anyone's guess - they are likely to get worse, but not matter how bad it gets, it seems unlikely that a bubble will be able to absorb armies or large cities totally. Their effect might become serious, but I don't see it right now and what I see right now affects my opinion of who's winning to a larger degree than speculations of the future.

 

I noted the millions in BE as being largely irrelevant because they were not the Arad Doman army - which has already been effectively splintered and nullified. So I feel Rand lost nothing militarily by abandoning Arad Doman.

[saidarisnowtainted]

maybe with perpetual darkness Fades can teleport anywhere they want.  what about SH?  does this also invovle the DO's ability to reach places?

[Lord of the Morning]

I have a strong feeling that the famine will be lessened in ToM, The spoiling of Bandar Eban's food was a result of Rand abandoning the people there.  Remember the quote "the Dragon is one with the land, and the land one with the dragon", I'm pretty sure this literally means as the Dragon's soul becomes darker, the land also becomes darker.  Rand took a huge step at the end of tGS to get back on track and repair his soul, so i doubt we see another Bandar Eban. 

They still need to repair the damage done to the land, and that's where the tinkers will come in.  Egwene used need in tGS and was taken to a tinker camp, couple this with Avi going through the ter'angreal that will show her the past aiel, and maybe she'll realize how sweet it would be to have that song to repair the land.

 

I doubt however that this famine is the DO's ultimate plan, shai'tan is a crafty SOB, and prolly has some nasty tricks up his sleeves for the light.

 

All in all, the light took some very positive steps in tGS, but their victory is certainly very far from assured, I think they will eventually pull it out, but for all intents and purposes the DO is winning right now.

[Owners.Inc]

Turn a corner? More like they went from strong position, to an almost unbeatable one.

Has soon as I saw this thread I know that TGS would have done nothing to reconcile the different viewpoints here. If anything it's exacerbated them. I certainly think things are worse off now than they were before.

 

I believe the Forsaken aside from Moridin don't really matter, and even he isn't that important. So Semirhage and Graendal dieing doesn't sway me in the least.

 

The famine has vastly accelerated and there is now open war between the Seanchan the followers of the Dragon. In Arad Doman alone 100,000 Seanchan and 50,000 Domani were killed in one battle. These are soldiers who will be desperately needed when the Trollocs pour south by the millions.

 

The Trollocs are not important in and of themselves of course, however it will distract Rand from what is truly important and that is his one on one battle with the Dark One. A battle he has no idea how to wage, and one he may be at a disadvantage at now because he has channeled the True Power.

 

Given the disappearance of the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower it would seem that Taim is ready to make his move. And while many Black sisters were killed, the majority have escaped and will spread across the land sowing chaos and acting as Dreadlords.

 

BA AS are renowned for acting like headless chicken w/o strong guidance. Who are they going to go running to with this big failure on their heads? The forsaken will not happy. They've lost contact with Mesaana, so even they run back to the DO and become dreadlords, they're going to be wildly outnumbered.

 

I also have the feeling that the whole BT betrayal thing may have become a little overhyped. I doubt it will be as dramatic in terms of numbers turning as everyone seems to think.

 

I've mentioned before that its likely the famine will back down a little.

[Crael123]

i honestly think the light is winning now that rand is actually human again. the light has slowly been recovering since CoT, but took a HUGE blow when semi did her thing with rand. and then Tam had a chance to fix it all if he hadnt mentioned that 300 year old... meddling old hag. man i hope she dies a gruesome death or gets raped by a trolloc or something.

 

but the shadow took some heavy blows in tGS. Semi, one of the darks most....interesting.... commanders got nuked. graendal got nuked. black ajah got uncovered and desroyed for the most part. white tower got reforged. Rand became sane again.  Moridin sat around and sipped wine like a good forsaken he is.

 

but the light also took some heavy blows also. Rand destroyed the Cheodan kal{ loss of uber powerful mega source is a loss in my book] rand went psychotic for a time... arad doman is totally screwed... distrust betweeen the world and rand... tuon ripped the WT a new one... seanchan still a threat. faile got saved  :'(

 

[OsaroLJ]

I don't think so. From the Shadow's perspective, this is game over. The Shadow actually got the Dragon to tap into the Dark One's own suicidal power. Then they got him to become so paranoid that his friends became useless. And finally, the Shadow almost WON THE WHOLE GAME when Rand almost became Rand Al'Thor Worldslayer. Shaitan was SECONDS away from freedom.

 

From their perspective, things couldn't be going better. And the Shadow now have a string attached to Rand because of his use of the TP. Who knows, maybe Rand continues to use the True Power.

[Eleint]

I actually have a theory on how the Dark needs to win, permanently.  We see a lot of mirror worlds where the Dark 'won' but the DO is obviously still bound, and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

Basically, I think for the DO to 'win', the Dragon has to destroy the world -- without serving the Shadow.  If he turns to the Shadow, it's a stalemate.  It becomes a mirror world of sorts to the 'real world' as per the quantum worlds theory that Jordan liked so much.  He has to be the center of the pattern, on the side of Light, and destroy the Pattern /then/.  Perhaps he loses his ta'veren nature, and that's what does it, but nevertheless.

 

Thus, the moment on Dragonmount?  More important even than it seems.

[OsaroLJ]

I actually have a theory on how the Dark needs to win, permanently.  We see a lot of mirror worlds where the Dark 'won' but the DO is obviously still bound, and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

Basically, I think for the DO to 'win', the Dragon has to destroy the world -- without serving the Shadow.  If he turns to the Shadow, it's a stalemate.  It becomes a mirror world of sorts to the 'real world' as per the quantum worlds theory that Jordan liked so much.  He has to be the center of the pattern, on the side of Light, and destroy the Pattern /then/.  Perhaps he loses his ta'veren nature, and that's what does it, but nevertheless.

 

Thus, the moment on Dragonmount?  More important even than it seems.

 

I think you have a point especially when one considers what Moridin thoughts were regarding the King Fisher.

[Sentinel78]

and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

RJ said the Light's champion had gone over to the Shadow before, not that one of Rand's past lives went over to the Shadow.  Presumably, this would have occurred before the Rand/LTT soul was 'anointed' to the Dragon. 

[OsaroLJ]

and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

RJ said the Light's champion had gone over to the Shadow before, not that one of Rand's past lives went over to the Shadow.  Presumably, this would have occurred before the Rand/LTT soul was 'anointed' to the Dragon. 

 

Huh? The title "Dragon" wasn't what made LTT the Lights Champion. He was the Champion with or without the title. 

[analyticalkeys]

and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

RJ said the Light's champion had gone over to the Shadow before, not that one of Rand's past lives went over to the Shadow.  Presumably, this would have occurred before the Rand/LTT soul was 'anointed' to the Dragon. 

 

Huh? The title "Dragon" wasn't what made LTT the Lights Champion. He was the Champion with or without the title. 

 

He meant the Dragon never went over to the Shadow, but the Champion of Light has.

[OsaroLJ]

and while Rand says he never served the DO, RJ said in an interview that he has before.

 

RJ said the Light's champion had gone over to the Shadow before, not that one of Rand's past lives went over to the Shadow.  Presumably, this would have occurred before the Rand/LTT soul was 'anointed' to the Dragon. 

 

Huh? The title "Dragon" wasn't what made LTT the Lights Champion. He was the Champion with or without the title. 

 

He meant the Dragon never went over to the Shadow, but the Champion of Light has.

 

Well the original post that was replied to never mentioned the dragon. I read that as him implying that Rand or the Dragon wasn't always the Lights Champion. Thus his claim that though the Light's Champion has turned to the Shadow, Rand's soul hasn't. Again, that thought line is incorrect.

[analyticalkeys]

Well the original post that was replied to never mentioned the dragon. I read that as him implying that Rand or the Dragon wasn't always the Lights Champion. Thus his claim that though the Light's Champion has turned to the Shadow, Rand's soul hasn't. Again, that thought line is incorrect.

 

The problem that most people have with this is that RJ made two somewhat conflicting statements. He's said that Champion of Light has gone over to the Shadow before, but also when asked about Ishy telling this same thing to Rand, he was like "And you believed him?"

[OsaroLJ]

Well the original post that was replied to never mentioned the dragon. I read that as him implying that Rand or the Dragon wasn't always the Lights Champion. Thus his claim that though the Light's Champion has turned to the Shadow, Rand's soul hasn't. Again, that thought line is incorrect.

 

The problem that most people have with this is that RJ made two somewhat conflicting statements. He's said that Champion of Light has gone over to the Shadow before, but also when asked about Ishy telling this same thing to Rand, he was like "And you believed him?"

 

Yea, RJ straight played us. Ishy was correct!

[Owners.Inc]

I don't think so. From the Shadow's perspective, this is game over. The Shadow actually got the Dragon to tap into the Dark One's own suicidal power. Then they got him to become so paranoid that his friends became useless. And finally, the Shadow almost WON THE WHOLE GAME when Rand almost became Rand Al'Thor Worldslayer. Shaitan was SECONDS away from freedom.

 

From their perspective, things couldn't be going better. And the Shadow now have a string attached to Rand because of his use of the TP. Who knows, maybe Rand continues to use the True Power.

 

There's no real evidence that a single time use of the TP is going keep a link between the DO and Rand \. and besides links are well known for working both ways. It just might be how Rand beats the DO - though I convinced that Rand drew it through Ishy, not himself. I don't see how you can say the game is over. Rand's still alive, most of his forces are gathering and with his return to sanity, the whole paranoia thing becomes less of an issue. I think the odds are stacked with the Light.

[The Dirty Landry]

Logically, there is absolutely no argument against the fact that the Light is still losing. Going by RJ's statement about Rand and the Light being on the ropes after KoD, you haven't really seen a significant change in circumstances. RJ mentions that all of the glimmers of hope need to pay off for the light to win. Egwene's reunification of the Tower is one of these. Perrin's possible unification with Galad that we didn't see onscreen is another. Same goes for Mat meeting with Elayne and possibly starting production of the dragons.

 

However, the Seanchan are hellbent on ruining the Light's chances and there is no alliance in sight at the moment.

 

Since RJ used the boxing metaphor, I will go there.

 

At the start of the novel we are entering the final round. At some point during the beginning of the round, Rand is basically given an uppercut to the jaw that lays him out for a full 8 seconds. Just because Rand got rid of 1 and maybe 2 Forsaken isn't necessarily a great thing. One he used the True Power on one of them, and two he was using balefire. Moridin WANTS Rand to use Balefire against his enemies. Do you honestly believe that Moridin just let that tidbit about using balefire against Forsaken slip? I have a hard time believing that anything Moridin suggests about fighting is going to be to the benefit of Rand and the Light.

 

Rand has basically used all nine seconds and was one nanosecond away from being knocked out before he gets back on his feet. However, just because he's on his feet now doesn't mean that he is talking trash again and about to finish the fight. He is still probably a little wobbly.

 

You guys are confusing the fact that you believe that no matter what the Light is going to win with the fact that it is in no way, shape, or form winning RIGHT NOW. Despite what we believe the end result will be, that doesn't change the reality of what state the Light is in at the moment.

 

[Shard]

the whitecloaks under a competent general this time

Yes, from one of the Great Captains to merely competent - what a step up!

Eamon Valda was not a great captain. That was Pedron Niall. Galad figures to be at least as good a general as Valda.  At worst it's a step laterally.

That's funny, I could have sworn that Pedron Niall used to head the Children of the Light. So they went from a great captain in Niall, to merely competent...

Pedron Niall has been dead for most of the series.  So, how does Galad killing Valda take them from a "great captain" to someone merely competent?

Who said anything about killing Valda? I was talking about Niall.

 

I think Competent isn't what were looking for, I think Moral and Ethical are the qualities that the WC's need now. It's kinda funny that I think Ghalad is that leader now.

[Dunderdan]

I agree with those that consider the army/power situation to be of lesser importance than the moral battle within Rand. To me, it seems like the whole dark force attack thing is meant to invoke dispair and disillusion into Rand. Should an army or some other power house manage to seize territorial control for the dark side, its a nice bonus, but I very much doubt an all out DO physical victory. The DO top priority is to achieve whatever situation needed to open up the prison and kill the wheel. Its hardly won by army domination.

 

The keys must be 1) the DO prison gate and 2) the Dragon Reborn. Its increasingly likely that the DO knock out win is only won by demoralising Rand. If the DO win is achieved by making the Dragon turn to the dark side, or, as someone suggested above, that its done by a non-dark Dragon killing the world, I dont know. Im leaning towards the latter. Be it that he destroys it LTT/Dragonmount style or by going at resealing the prison the wrong way. But I see no other major event being a candidate.

 

Nevertheless, I assume a major land battle will mirror this moral struggle, giving Rand no breathing space to figure things out calmly, rationally. I bet he'll be juggernauted into an epic battle which will give him the ultimate moral test unprepared, at which point we can only hope he's saved enough humanity to make the good choices. And Im hoping that RJ has planned for a scenario where the option to win a decisive "kill all of the dark side" victory, isnt the morally correct one. Like it wouldnt have been to attempt winning an all out nucluar war back in the 80s.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I think Competent isn't what were looking for, I think Moral and Ethical are the qualities that the WC's need now. It's kinda funny that I think Ghalad is that leader now.

Indeed,  Galad might not be as good as Niall on the battlefield, but I think he's the best thing for the Whitecloak organisation as a whole.

[The Dirty Landry]

Currently, among the young guys in the series only a few can be called good generals.

 

Perrin, certainly has proved he has the ability to see at the strategic and not just tactical level when he rescued Faile.

 

Mat, obviously has that ability.

 

I seriously doubt Gawyn's and Galad's abilities at that level for the moment. Yes Gawyn and Galad have both been training to be Generals, but they haven't proven anything. Yes, Gawyn has some experience, but not at leading anything above the Platoon-Company level (speaking as if its equivalent to the U.S. Army). I never had the impression that he had very many men, he was more like a raiding/harrying/scout force.

 

I hope for the Light's sake that Gawyn stays with Egwene's army with Gareth Bryne in charge..because with Gawyn currently the way he is..I wouldn't want him in charge of anything. I hope that Mat will end up commanding Elayne's army. She really needs a competent general to command her forces and Birgitte and Charlz Guybon are either inexperienced in commanding an army or are not cut out to be a general.

 

With Mat in command, he would be able to put the Dragons to good use, the new crossbow, and get the most out of the army. This would give the Light a significant advantage. Mat is much more worthwhile commanding a large army than just a small force. Combine that large army with Mat's ability to call the Heroes of the Horn and he has quite a nice force. Heck maybe The Band will become a kind of special forces within that army.