The One Power (Full Book Spoilers)--No Balefire!

[coteaz]

is it just me, or have we not seen even a fraction of what can actually be done using the OP?

[ShiftedInsights]

It's not just you.  We have seen next to nothing of the things that can be done with Earth, barely anything about the manufacture and construction of *angreal's, very few of the wonders that can be done when sadair and sadin are wielded by a male/female circle, the list goes on and on, which leaves me hopeful. 

[coteaz]

I hope in the encyclopedia, they have a huge list of what can be done, and a list of possible weaves and what is used to create them.

[sdelu]

Oh, there is still much, much more for us to discover.

 

Rand alone should bring TONS of new weaves to the books. At least, I hope so. If he has truly acknowledged his memories and remembers being Lews Therin, then he has access to a lot of knowledge that we have yet to see. Here's to hugely ridiculous weaves that blow things up! yay!

 

We also have Aviendha and Elyane and their knowledge of the ter'angreal, and hopefully we'll see some more angreal and sa'angreal. The light needs to be well equipped for the coming battle!

 

And maybe we'll see some neat stuff from the Forsaken and the Black Tower. They have to have some cool stuff too...

 

I'm pretty excited about all the neat stuff we'll (hopefully) see.

[coteaz]

Hmm it would seem very advantages for the Dark to have some knowledge of how to make Ter'angreal and angreal disseminated through the ranks of the dread lords and ladies. Else they will be massively outgunned in the last battle and it will be kind of a caked walk for the forces of light, despite all the dark friends riddling their ranks.

[JehanSedai]

Hmm it would seem very advantages for the Dark to have some knowledge of how to make Ter'angreal and angreal disseminated through the ranks of the dread lords and ladies. Else they will be massively outgunned in the last battle and it will be kind of a caked walk for the forces of light, despite all the dark friends riddling their ranks.

 

I hesitate to respond to this because I risk getting far afield of the topic, but I don't think it matters what the Light has versus what the Shadow has.  It only matters what Rand has.  The rest is fluff.  How quickly the world recovers from Tarmon Gai'don will be a result of the forces of Light versus the forces of Shadow, but the actual outcome, whether there is a world left to recover, is solely on Rand and what he brings to the Battle.

 

{Granted, "what he brings to the Battle" might include people, if he's linked with them, but again that's far afield of the topic}

 

My point though is that the Light could have all the edges in the world, a mass sa'angreal factory set up in the Palace in Caemlyn, the Light-aligned Aes Sedai and Asha'man could curbstomp the Dreadlords... and it wouldn't matter squat to the actual outcome of the Last Battle.

[coteaz]

True, but if rand wins and the whole world is covered in trollocs and dread lords because they have 100000 times more angreal and what not that the light forces have, rand would turn around and be like "... crap"

[Bob T Dwarf]

It has been established since the very early books that the Forsaken have no *angreal, and were pretty desperate to find some.  Seems logical to me that if any of them had the ability to make some, that wouldn't have been an issue.  They would have just made what they needed.

 

Since they didn't do that, it seems apparent none of them have the ability to do so. 

[Sentinel78]

It has been established since the very early books that the Forsaken have no *angreal, and were pretty desperate to find some.  Seems logical to me that if any of them had the ability to make some, that wouldn't have been an issue.  They would have just made what they needed.

 

Since they didn't do that, it seems apparent none of them have the ability to do so.

 

True, none of them seem to be able to make angreal or sa'angreal.  However, Lanfear and Graendel at least had angreal. 

 

Moiraine's POV from Fires o Heaven, Chpt 52:

 

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter’angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him.

 

Graendal's POV from Path of Daggers, Chpt 12:

 

Abruptly a vertical slash of silver appeared at the far end of the room, bright against the tapestries hanging between the heavy gilded mirrors, and a crystalline chime rang loud. Her eyebrows rose in surprise. Someone remembered the courtesies of a more civilized Age, it seemed. Standing, she forced the plain band of gold down against the ruby ring on her smallest finger and embraced saidar through it before channeling the web that would sound an answering chime for whoever wanted to open a gateway. The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I kinda doubt that the 'Finns let Lanfear keep any of her toys.  Graendal and anything she had just got vaporized.

 

Team Dark should still have zilch.

[Jemlin]

Lanfear had that Angreal because Moraine placed it in the Wagon.  Greandal had her angreal because she looted through Sammuel's palace after he was destroyed. 

 

Otherwise, its clear the forsaken had no clue how to make ter'angreal and angreal.  Why would they?  During the AoL and the War of Power, people were specialized and the Forsaken would have left the construction of angreal up to the other Aes Sedai who knew what they were doing.

 

I do think its interesting that we see that, prior to the collaring of Damane roughly 1,000 years ago, the Seanchan land had a fair bit of survived knowledge to creating angreal and even using the Portal stones among its contending Aes Sedai.  Its too bad that knowledge was obviously lost.  Maybe there will be some books discovered some where.  Though I wouldn't think they would detail the construction of ter'angreal....but any info or basics would help someone like Elayne a LOT.

 

 

[coteaz]

I wonder if aviendha will figure out what exactly portal stones are with her Ter'angreal reading ability.

[Blademaster Tayos]

Portal stones are already well defined as to what they do, they transport people to other portal stones in any other universe, I think Verin (whose smartness will be missed) explains the theory in TGH.

 

As per the Angreal and the forsaken argument, I do find it surprising that the DO and co. do not have anyone who knows how to make them.  Especially considering that they would have been extremely valuable in the AoL and that the forsaken include(d) some of the most accomplished channelers of the age.

[coteaz]

yes we know what they do, but is that all they can do? dont forget that she knows exactly how to make them work aswell, so she perhaps could find new uses for them?

[Blademaster Tayos]

Maybe, but there has not been any hint of any extra abilities for the portal stones.

[DemandredFO]

We don't exactly know how 'greal are made properly, for all we know it takes a cooperative effort and as seen the Foresaken don't cooperate.  That would be especially true if perchance they could give an edge to their rival.

[coteaz]

From LTT's memories, there was an Angreal artist that resided in the Sharom, the giant white floating egg from rands walk through the glass columns in the shadow rising. So, you can make them by yourself, unfortunately he did in the explosion that destroyed the facility.

[Eleint]

Remember that Semi copied the male a'dam, so they do have the ability to make *angreal, up to a point.

 

I think the reason they haven't made angreal and sa'angreal, just Semi copying the a'dam, is obvious after Winter's Heart: angreal 'focus' the OP in a similar method to Rand using Saidar to filter Saidin.  Thus, angreal need both male and female channelers to be made.  I don't see the Forsaken trusting each other enough to do that.

[Nightstrike]

I've read TGS, but maybe I read it too fast? Does it say that Semi made the dominion band?

[Eleint]

I /think/ it did.  I could be wrong.  I still think that's how angreal are made though either way.  It really makes sense that to boost males you'd need a woman using saidar and to boost women, you'd need a male using saidin.  Kind of like a lens system.  Saidar is a 'lens' that focuses saidin and vise versa.

[jemron]

No, Semi did not make the Domination Band.  She got it from Cadsuane's warded box.  Cadsuane got it along with other copies of it, I believe, from the Seanchan at the end of KoD when they captured Semi.  The Seanchan made it and other copies of it from the original which was in the museum at Tanchico.  That one was supposed to be thrown in the bottom of the sea by Bayle Domon, but he kept it on his ship and Egeanin/Leilwin gives it to Suroth (the darkfriend Seanchan) as a gift when she is made "low blood".

 

In TGS, US Hardback, pg. 350, Semi says to Rand as she is using the Domination Band on him, "When I tested the Domination Band before, I found it to be a far more elegant tool than those Seanchan a'dam."

 

This implies that she acquired the Domination Band from the copies that the Seanchan made, and that she didn't personally make it/them.

 

You can read the history of it up to TGS, but not during TGS here:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/sad_bracelets.html

[jemron]

On a slightly different One Power related topic:

 

Is the One Power "stored" or "held" in some sort of reservoir, and will it therefore eventually theoretically run out?  Or is it completely endless and "replenishing" (as in, it will never run out)?  I can't remember if this is described by RJ or in the books.  

 

The reason I ask is because there are a couple places in the series where it appears to have a measurable amount.  The Eye of the World was a small pool of purified saidin that actually ran out (though this is understandable, since it took a bunch of Aes Sedai (male and female) just to create it).  But also, when Rand and co. cleansed the taint, didn't he channel all of saidin through Shadar Logoth using the CK somehow?

 

The reason I ask is that I have been thinking about the scene in TGS when Rand first taps into the TP and Lews Therin says something to the effect of "The TP is the Dark One."

 

This made me think... Could it be possible that by channeling the TP you are actually depleting the DO himself?  Similar to when Rand channeled and depleted to pool of pure saidin at/in the Eye of the World.

 

Crazy theory, I know... But could it be possible that this is the key to somehow "undoing" the DO?  That would be why it has such horrible effects on the user.

 

Also, some have speculated that it is actually the DOs prison that is made out of TP, since the OP doesn't seem to work properly (eg. it will get tainted if you even try).  So, could it be that the more someone channels the TP, the weaker the DO's prison becomes?  As in, the DOs prison is the "reservoir" for the TP?

 

Even crazier theory: The DO (and the TP) are the prison itself, and the "entity" in the prison is actually the Creator, "bound at the moment of creation."  Possibly there is a negative "power" (ie. the TP or the DO him/itself) holding the Creator (the good power) in.  That's weird, I know...  But I've been thinking that this could be a very strange twist to the whole story that could be really interesting.

 

Maybe the pattern was created by a good and a bad entity to make it "neutral" (ie. the DO and the Creator built the pattern together) and the only way for the Pattern to stay neutral was to actually create a mechanism that traps both the DO and the Creator from every being free from each other.  Therefore, neither the Creator (the good) nor the DO (the bad) can ever have full power or control over the Pattern (which is supposed to be neutral).  Assuming that the DO is the prison and the Creator is inside the prison, they could both be like the wounds on Rand's side.  Always fighting against each other, never healing or "breaking free" of each other.

 

Discuss, criticize, expound, tear apart... Whatever.  I've been thinking about this since I read someone's post somewhere where they theorized that the DOs prison was made out of TP.

 

 

I'm bumping this, because few people have discussed it, and I want to know what ya'll think.  It fell on the end of a page in the middle of the "how many channelers are there" argument that ended up lasting like 8 pages... I would make this its own topic, but I can't yet, so...

 

I also have one thing to add to this.  I was reading the chapter where Rand touches the TP for the first time, and I read this, which somewhat solidifies some of my theory that the TP is more like the Eye of the World and it can run out:

 

Rand wailed.  THIS CAN'T BE HAPPENING!  I WILL NOT DO THIS AGAIN!

Something snapped inside of him.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed.  That's impossible!  We can't use it!  Cast it away!  That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

It is HIM.

 

Emphasis added.  "It was like a reservoir of water."

 

Now, some people replied and told me that RJ said that the OP is finite but infinitely reusable.  Is the TP like that too, or is it just finite, and once it's gone, it's gone for good?

 

This could be the way to get rid of the DO.  Especially if the TP actually is HIM.

 

[Nightstrike]

A few RJ quotes (copied from Theoryland):

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

 

 

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q:  New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ:  Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

 

 

America On-Line chat #1 1996 ("The Two AOL chats after ACOS")

 

Shosh001 asks: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?  

RJ: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

 

 

Compuserve chat June 1996 ("the latest CIS chat")

 

Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?  

RJ: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Nevermind this.  :-[

[Sentinel78]

Now, some people replied and told me that RJ said that the OP is finite but infinitely reusable.  Is the TP like that too, or is it just finite, and once it's gone, it's gone for good?

 

This could be the way to get rid of the DO.  Especially if the TP actually is HIM

 

The TP is drawn from the DO, so it makes sense that the amount of TP available scales with the DO's connection to the world.  Thus, when Ishy drew on the TP at the end of Book 3, he had access to less TP than is available now.  Thus, the "reservoir" is probably going to scale as the DO gets closer to breaking free I'd imagine.  I'd imagine it's reuseable.