Dragonsworn.

[Roxinos]

One thing that always pissed me off and always irked me was in the Lord of Chaos when Mat confronts Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve in the Little Tower, Egwene accuses Mat and his Band of being Dragonsworn. That never made any sense to me. Especially after Mat vehemently denies it (rightly so) and with Egwene's follow-up logic behind her accusation.

 

She accuses Mat of being Dragonsworn because he goes where Rand tells him to. Which doesn't make any sense. The Dragonsworn do not follow Rand, they follow the Prophet--Masema. Rand has never once issued a command to any of the Dragonsworn, much less Masema. So how could anyone think that the title of Dragonsworn falls under anyone who obeys the Dragon Reborn.

 

If that were the case, then all the High Lords of Tear, all the High Lady's and Lords of Cairhien, Bashere, and the Aiel are all Dragonsworn. By Egwene's logic, of course.

 

It just doesn't make any bloody sense! I mean Mat's Band does not obey the Dragon Reborn either. They obey Mat. And Mat does what Rand wants him to because Rand is the Dragon Reborn and Mat knows that his fate and Rand's may yet ride on commands that the Dragon Reborn gives.

[Kadere]

It makes plenty of sense, you just explained it. Mat follows the Dragon Reborn, thus he's dragonsworn. His band follows Mat under Rand's guiding, thus they're dragonsworn. The High Lords of Tear, Cariehin, Caemlyn, and everywhere else that have sworn to Rand are dragonsworn. Those that follow the Prophet are dragonsworn because the Prophet has sworn allegince to Rand. Anyone who says or thinks that they are following Rand, is dragonsworn. It just happens that the one's following the Prophet are insane, which is why Perrin is sent reign him in.

 

Egwene is afraid of the Band because they follow Rand, and thus maybe dangerous to her. If Rand ordered them to suddenly attack the Aes Sedai, the Band would do it. This all steams from the fact that no one has any idea what Rand's going to do. Everyone is afraid of those who have sworn alleigence because because those dragonsworn are now under the direct guiding of someone who has complete, unattested power. If Rand goes mad, everyone under him will do his bidding because they're dragonsworn. That's why when the Aes Sedai kneel to Rand it's such an earth shattering thing. He's got Aes Sedai to do his bidding now. If Rand becomes dangerous, everyone is screwed.

[Roxinos]

But my point is then Egwene and the rest of the Aes Sedai are getting into a battle of semantics. They're putting the Dragonsworn label on everything and anything that follows the Dragon Reborn. That's just wrong and frankly annoying.

 

And my argument to such logic, the word Dragonsworn means anyone sworn to the Dragon Reborn so thereby anyone who follows the Dragon Reborn is Dragonsworn, is that Egwene and the rest of the Aes Sedai do NOT consider the High Lords of Tear and the rest Dragonsworn. They don't. But they consider Mat Dragonsworn because he goes where Rand tells them to.

 

It's flawed logic, and it annoys me.

 

The ones following the Prophet are not necessarily insane. The Prophet himself is insane, but Rand doesn't know that. He just thinks that the Prophet can be used and he must use him. So he sends Perrin to rein him in for that reason.

 

Egwene is not afraid the Band will attack Salidar. The rest of the Aes Sedai are. Egwene was afraid before she knew who commanded them, but to think that after finding out that Mat commanded them, with all her talk of his stubborn attitude and his inability to follow anyone, that he's Dragonsworn and so are they, is just foolish.

 

And here's something else, why would they think that the Band are Dragonsworn before they knew who commanded them or what their purpose was? They had those two men who were captured, but those two men would be boasting about how many men they had (which is proven because Egwene said that they did) and I highly doubt they'd be saying "We can take you down and we're hear to do just that! And we follow the Dragon Reborn!" to Warders and Aes Sedai who questioned them. They would boast about their numbers and say they follow "Lord Mat Cauthon" or something like that.

 

Ah yes, and back to the argument of semantics. The term Dragonsworn was coined in reference to the people that Masema, the Prophet, began gathering in support and praise of the Lord Dragon Reborn. It was not coined to reference anyone who followed the Dragon Reborn. It's like calling any sort of adhesive strip that you apply to a cut a "Band-Aid" when it's not. A Band-Aid is a brand name for an adhesive strip, the adhesive strip is not necessarily a band-aid.

 

My point is that Egwene and the rest of the Aes Sedai's logic in calling the Band, and Mat, Dragonsworn is flawed. And it just never squared well with me. Especially after Egwene found out that Mat was their commander. It makes no bloody logical sense.

[Luckers]

Actually you are wrong. The High Lords and the like are Dragonsworn and concidered such...

 

They knew the Band was Dragonsworn because they knew they followed Mat, and that Mat followed Rand. Mat may not think of himself as such, and because technically he has never sworn alliegence to Rand he is not Dragonsworn... however as far as the Aes Sedai are concerned its perfectly reasonable and correct to refer to them as such.

[Colmana]

by their logic, in the end they will become dragonswarn themselves because in the end they will have to follow the dragon reborn into the last battle won't they?

[Luckers]

If they are in alliance with him, no. The direct nature of 'sworn' means that if they are just ally's working towards a common goal then they are not in fact Dragonsworn. Under that Cadsuane and Nynaeve are not Dragonsworn, whilst Verin and Elza and the like are.

[Colmana]

ah, well that makes more sense

 

if they just align with him then that would be the case, i can't really see them becoming dragonswarn, apart from those that already are

[Guest cwestervelt]

Kadere is right, yet he is also wrong. There are people that that have sworn oaths of fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and then there are the rabble that have not sworn fealty to Rand but claim to follow him as an excuse to commit any attrocity the desire. The term Dragonsworn should only be applied to the first group but it generally isn't. It should not be applied to the second group at all, but it always is.

 

Mat and the Band are not classifiable as Dragonsworn either by proper definition of the term, or by the general usage. They are not part of the first group because they haven't sworn any oaths to follow Rand. They are not part of the second group as they are not an out of control mob. Gareth Bryne even differentiates between them and the Dragonsworn when he is talking to Egwene in the chapter "A Morning of Victory". (Might not be the exact title, but it is close. I can't remember the book off hand) In the scene originally mentioned, Egwene was deliberately trying to do 2 things. The first was to make Mat think he needed her protection. The second was trying to get his into a position where she could present him as a threat and so bind the Aes Sedai behind her. She was trying the exact same tactic as Elayne used with the Borderlanders when she secured Andor.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If they are in alliance with him' date=' no. The direct nature of 'sworn' means that if they are just ally's working towards a common goal then they are not in fact Dragonsworn. Under that Cadsuane and Nynaeve are not Dragonsworn, whilst Verin and Elza and the like are.[/quote']

 

That's the thing. Perrin and Mat are allied with him, not sworn to him. So it Mat is "Dragonsworn", then Cadsuane and Nynaeve are also "Dragonsworn".

[Roxinos]

Exactly what I was going to say wester.

 

Luckers, Mat is not sworn to the Dragon Reborn. He just goes where Rand tells him to. And he does it because he knows that he has to. Ta'veren and such, ya know?

 

And once again.

 

Dragonsworn is a title given to those that follow the Prophet. It is like a brand-name. And as such, cannot be applied to everyone who is sworn to the Dragon Reborn, but only those are are sworn to the Dragon Reborn through Masema.

[Luckers]

Yes, i do know, and said as much in my post. Nevertheless what i was saying is that it is reasonable to use the term Dragonsworn when describing Mat and Perrin because they do Rand's bidding... they are not, at that stage, a political force as such. More like trusted henchmen or Rand leiutenants--at least they would appear such to the Aes Sedai.

[Kaznen]

Dobraine(?) called himself a dragonsworn.

[Pevin]

Dragonsworn is a title given to those that follow the Prophet. It is like a brand-name. And as such' date=' cannot be applied to everyone who is sworn to the Dragon Reborn, but only those are are sworn to the Dragon Reborn through Masema.[/quote']

 

I have to disagree with your premise here that "dragonsworn" originally was used as a reference to Masema's people.

 

There were dragonsworn in The Great Hunt before Rand left the Shienarins (spelling??) to go to Tear. Rand was angry because there were people who had declared for him and were fighting and dying while he was hiding in the mountains to wait out winter. He was yelling at Moirane about the whole situation. They were called dragonsworn.

 

Additionally, many Children of Light were masquarading as dragonsworn to sow chaos in Niall's grand scheme to unite the world to face TG. They were an entirely separate group from Masema's, but were also considered dragonsworn because they presented themselves as such.

 

I believe "dragonsworn" can be used to refer to any person who has personally devoted him/herself to following the Dragon.

[Roxinos]

People always proclaimed to follow the Dragon Reborn. But I didn't think that they were called "Dragonsworn" until Masema was thrown into the mix. After Rand ran away from his hiding place in the mountains.

 

Prove it. Show me where any person's PoV in the books called them Dragonsworn.

[Pevin]

Unfortunately I just began a 5000+ mile relocation today, so my books are packed away (and will be for the next few days). But I looked at some of the online resources. Check out this website and see if their references about dragonsworn are correct.

 

I was wrong on one thing--it's The Dragon Reborn NOT The Great Hunt where Rand is camped in the mountains.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/organizations/dragonsworn.html

 

I would first check TDR chap 3. Then the prologue of COT.

[Roxinos]

If you actually click the link, it says nothing about Moiraine telling anyone that they're Dragonsworn. Merely that they're proclaiming their support for the Dragon Reborn on the Almoth Plain.

[Luckers]

He was giving you the point in the text so that you could go look it up for yourself. We already know that Moiraine calls the people on Almoth Plain Dragonsworn--if your interested the exact quote is in chapter 3. Also plenty of others have too... take a squint at any of the chapters with Inturalde. Masema just heads a group of Dragonsworn in Ghealdin... hell... you started this thread with an example of a non-prophet follower of Rand being named Dragonsworn.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

While it's true at the end of TGH (epilogue or small closing passage) the book says that thousands swear in the name of the dragon and kill, and get killed, and Moiraine calls them dragonsworn later, they are pretty much the same as Masema's later crew: Fanatical people killing in the name of the Dragon.

 

In fact, some of those people at the end of TGH probably sought out Masema when he became prophet. While Dragonsworn didn't start with Masema, the implication I see from the books is "Fanatical people that kill in the name of the Dragon."

 

 

Now since Egwene is Amyrlin when Mat comes, she's obviously scheming when she calls him and his band dragonsworn. Although it is doubtful Siuan taught her enough of politics at this point for such a manuever, but then again she could have discussed Mat with Siuan to reach a decision.

[Luckers]

Actually they arn't. We see in Inturalde chapters some of the more... high-end dragonsworn of Tarabon, Arad Domon and the Almoth Plain... Lords and their vassels sworn to Rand just the same. Dragonsworn has a bad name because of the fanatic peasent types that seem to flock, not only to rand, but all the False Dragons, but since we have evidence that the term is indeed used for anyone that follows Rand we can't say that only those that fit the bad rep are dragonsworn...

[Roxinos]

That's my point though. It isn't used to describe anyone who is Dragonsworn. I've stated examples of people who haven't been titled Dragonsworn, and yet all you've said is that they are because they are sworn to the Dragon Reborn.

 

And yes. I'm the type of person who actually wants quotes stating a specific fact in the books. I don't go on word-of-mouth alone.

[Pevin]

That's fine that you want quotes, I would too. As I said though, my books are packed up for the next few days.

 

SO LOOK FOR YOURSELF IN TDR CHAPTER 3 AND THE PROLOGUE OF COT!

 

Let us know if those groups were called dragonsworn or not after you look it up.

 

I agree that the particular term of "dragonsworn" seems to be reserved for the less organized, less law-abiding fanatics, but there are more of those groups than just Masema's. Even though that term seems to be a bit derogatory, I would argue that it could be applied to anyone who has sworn allegiance to Rand, for example The Legion of the Dragon, the Ashaman, etc. Unfortunately, I don't have any quotes for that ever having been done in the books.

[Roxinos]

Alright. I'll give you that much. That it could be used to describe anyone who is sworn to the Dragon. But I've only seen it ever directed towards the people who, as mentioned before, are the lower sort of rabble.

 

And then suddenly Mat.

 

But ya.

 

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 3, News from the Plain, Page 61, Paperback:

"'Oh, the Children have snapped up some of the Dragonswon, where there were only a handful gathered. But though they proclaim they will bring down this false Dragon, though they have a thousand men supposedly doing nothing but hunting them, they avoid contact with any party of as many as fifty Dragonsworn.'"

 

Moiraine calls them Dragonsworn. But just before then, she had referred to them "those who have declared for the Dragon."

 

Anyway.

 

That may disprove what I said about it being a title limited to those who follow Masema, but it doesn't lengthen the description of Dragonsworn nearly far enough to warrant Egwene and the Salidar Aes Sedai calling Mat and his Band Dragonsworn.

 

And I can't look through CoT. I have no bloody clue where it is. And that bothers me.

[Luckers]

Sure it does... Mat is acting under the Dragons orders, ergo the thought that he is Dragonsworn is not the rediculous... what else would he be if he is obeying the Dragon? Of course we know he's Rand's friend, and obeying only becuase he chooses too, not because of an oath... but that doesn't mean it isn't perfectly reasonable for the Aes Sedai to call him that.

[Roxinos]

As I said, "That it could be used to describe anyone who is sworn to the Dragon."

 

But even that wouldn't include Mat and his Band because Mat isn't sworn to Rand and the Band is only sworn to Mat.

 

Egwene and Nynaeve know that Mat is only obeying Rand because he chooses to, they know that Mat is too stubborn to take orders. Hell, a few paragraphs away from when they call Mat Dragonsworn, they said that they'd have to guide Mat because Mat is too stubborn to follow orders. If they told him to do something he'd shove his heel into the ground and fight you all the way.

 

Let's consider this.

 

It is understandable, conceivably, that the Band would be considered Dragonsworn while they're traversing the woods to Salidar. They're just an army waving about the Dragon Reborn's banners (at least I'm pretty sure they were; although I did get the impression that Mat was hiding those banners) heading towards Salidar. The waving of the Dragon Reborn's banners would be enough to call them Dragonsworn before you know anything about them.

 

But there is just one point that makes me think that any normal person would realize that they are much too organized to be Dragonsworn.

 

When any person in the series thinks the name "Dragonsworn" it's normally attributed to the mostly bandits and rabble that run rampant around countries looting and burning and killing anyone who doesn't immediately proclaim to the Dragon Reborn. Dirty people who have almost no organization.

 

Yet here the Band come. A group of people that are organized beyond belief. They have sentries, which 2 were caught. Every night before they sleep they put up barricades and blockades to prevent intruders into the camp at night. They camp like professional soldiers. They camp like they're led by a commander.

 

That in itself goes against all previous ideas of what the main idea of a Dragonsworn person is. But I still see how they could ignore that and focus on the banners alone. As I said, the name could be given to someone who merely follows the Dragon Reborn's orders.

 

But then, after Mat appears (which all of Salidar has heard of Mat and know who he is, and if not all, then most) and says that he is the commander of the Band, they still believe them to be Dragonsworn? I mean, I might understand the Salidar Aes Sedai believing such, but not Egwene and Nynaeve. And perhaps Egwene because she fits so well into the glove of an Aes Sedai (condescending, know-it-all, better than thou), but Nynaeve I figured had some amount of sense.

 

And that's my problem.

[chuckievi]

The thing is I think your thought process is falling into the same debate of semantics that you dislike. Just because many of the people in the books think of "Dragonsworn" with a negative connontation, and a bit like rabble, doesn't make that the defining factor. Plain and simple, Dragonsworn are anyone who follows the Dragon, whether its a false dragon or Rand.

 

Matt and his band fly the banner of the Dragon Reborn, roaming around the world with that flying above their heads makes them Dragonsworn in the truest sense of what the word means. In fact if you will recall the Band of the Red Hand (this time around) is actually made up of soldiers from Rand's army that Matt just happened to lead into battle against the Shaido. The Band is really just a division or unit in Rand's army under one of his top generals, if you will.

 

Also, just cus I am evil in my own little way, for someone who

 

"And yes. I'm the type of person who actually wants quotes stating a specific fact in the books. I don't go on word-of-mouth alone."

 

it took ya 7 posts to quote something! :twisted: