Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[John Galt]

Yes.  Especially after Egwene's comment "your soul is a brilliant white."  I thought that might be some foreshadowing for your suggestion.

[Red Hand Man]

Old habits die hard.  :D  Or maybe she just dreaded meeting him in death.  :o

 

 

 

I wonder at that.  I wouldn't put it past the DO to bring her back, at the very least to punish her some.  He's got a lot of free time, and I don't think SH puts in a full 40 a week either.

 

Any bets on Verin being bound to the Horn?  That kind of an exit practically begs for it...

 

 

I doubt it, no channelers that we know of are bound to the horn.

[Nightstrike]

I doubt it, no channelers that we know of are bound to the horn.

LTT/Rand is bound to the Horn.

[Elizabeth]

While I was not surprised at how things went down, it just did not feel right to me. I know that Verin just got sucked into being on the wrong side but how do you keep your good intent going after you've crossed the line? You know that she must have had to do terrible things. How do you cross the DO? How do you cross the Chosen, or the dark in general? Someone could have used her to wreck havoc on the Light.

[Dorkfiend]

While I was not surprised at how things went down, it just did not feel right to me. I know that Verin just got sucked into being on the wrong side but how do you keep your good intent going after you've crossed the line? You know that she must have had to do terrible things. How do you cross the DO? How do you cross the Chosen, or the dark in general? Someone could have used her to wreck havoc on the Light.

 

How?  Very, very carefully.  But that was really the essence of Verin.  From her POVs, she was so careful about every last word out of her mouth it's amazing she could talk at all.  Plus, she was so secretive she wouldn't even *think* in straight lines.  I used to read her parts and at the end, I'd be more confused coming out than going in.

[Red Hand Man]

I doubt it, no channelers that we know of are bound to the horn.

LTT/Rand is bound to the Horn.

 

We don't know that he is bound to the horn.  We know that characters that are bound to the horn recognize LTT.

 

Anyways, I would doubt very much that Verin is bound to the horn.

[Nightstrike]

Copied from Theoryland:

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

[Razor]

No, we know LTT is bound to the horn.  Hawkwing was surprized to realize LTT was there in the flesh and said if the dragon banner is here we must follow you.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

To play devil's advocate, RJ said bound to the wheel, not the horn, so maybe not all heroes who are bound to the wheel answer the horn's call. LTT could very well be living it up with Hawkwing and Gaidal watching Birgitte's feather dancer routine, but he might hold down the fort when they answer the call of the Horn.

 

Again, just to stir up the pot. I don't really think so, but hey, it's a discussion forum, right?

[lillcheese]

To play devil's advocate, RJ said bound to the wheel, not the horn, so maybe not all heroes who are bound to the wheel answer the horn's call. LTT could very well be living it up with Hawkwing and Gaidal watching Birgitte's feather dancer routine, but he might hold down the fort when they answer the call of the Horn.

 

Again, just to stir up the pot. I don't really think so, but hey, it's a discussion forum, right?

 

I also thought the Horn called the Heroes bound to the Wheel, not that the Heroes were bound to the Horn.

 

We've got a year to burn.  Stir baby stir.

[Nightstrike]

Copied from Theoryland:

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.

 

[Balefire to da face!]

This was one of the most shocking and satisfying scenes in the entire series for me. What an amazing sequence. From the moment Verin said "By the way, that dress you are wearing is green", I was completely riveted.

 

For me personally, I wouldn't care even if there are any logic or plot issues. It was still brilliant.

 

I was riveted just when she showed up in Egwene's room. When she revealed herself to be Black....well, like you said, one of the best moments of the series. I love how innocuous the title for that Chapter is.....so fitting for a character that pretended to be so plain, while being so amazing.

 

I love it when an author can "get one over on me", and whether it was Jordan or Sanderson that phrased it just so, they definitely did in this cause. I actually stopped right after reading the sentence, went back, and reread it like "What the hell is Verin talking about?" thinking I misread it or missed something.....then it dawned on me and I was like HOLY CRAP! Then I remembered "The Lie" from allll the way back in book 2. It just made me laugh. It truely makes me sad that Jordan never got the chance to see his fans react to some of these revelelations that came out in TGS and will come out in the next 2 books.

 

There are a few things that really stick out in my mind in the series, and that line, "...your dress is green" instantly became one of them.

[Alghar Khan]

She lied before this. So we knew that she could do that. Some of us did.

 

Though I'm surprised that she turned out to be Black Ajah. That part was a bit unexpected. Too bad she hadn't figured out that she could use the oath rod in tel'aran'rhiod to free herself from the Black's oaths. She did have the twisted ring Dream ter'angreal.

 

[Luckers]

I suspect you'd have to know how ter'angreal work in order to remake them in TAR. Like, Nynaeve knew the a'dam worked through create a one-sided link, and all that.

 

Of course she could simply have gone and gotten the reflection of the oath rod--she clearly knew where it was. I imagine that would work too.

[mastrtonberry]

She lied before this. So we knew that she could do that. Some of us did.

 

Though I'm surprised that she turned out to be Black Ajah. That part was a bit unexpected. Too bad she hadn't figured out that she could use the oath rod in tel'aran'rhiod to free herself from the Black's oaths. She did have the twisted ring Dream ter'angreal.

 

 

Only possibly.  We're not sure whether the oath rod can remove the dark oaths.  But it certainly would have been worth a shot.  And to think, it was at Verin's fingertips all that time.

[a great fantasy fan]

Personally, I am confused at the way you guys are seperating Bound to the Wheel and Bound to the Horn. I thought that the heroes bound to the wheel are the heoes who answer the horn's call, not the people Bound to the Horn. The Horn is the mechanism that calls the heroes bound to the wheel. No souls are bound to the horn.

 

Sorry that's a little off topic just clarifying

[Alghar Khan]

Only possibly.  We're not sure whether the oath rod can remove the dark oaths.  But it certainly would have been worth a shot.  And to think, it was at Verin's fingertips all that time.

No, we knew with certainty. Because RJ said that it was possible to remove your oaths in tel'aran'rhiod. Using the tower's oath rod.

[Coraxian]

Now I'm even more curious as to what Verin saw when she went through the waygate with Rand and the others in the Great Hunt.  She said "I never thought I....".

 

Any ideas, or did I miss a reference to this in later books?

[coteaz]

That is actually a good catch, perhaps that was when verin decided that she needed to leave her black ajah findings with someone capable.

[Jamesmb]

I just wanted to throw it out because it has hardly been mentioned, but I want go over Verin's note to Mat. While I don't know what the instructions in it are, I did notice she had a satchel full of notes that looked identical to the one she gave him. She also asked him not to open the note while she was there.

 

This leads me to believe that she herself isn't sure which note she has given him, and is most likely a mechanism she is using to betray the Dark One due to her Oaths. During their meeting, she did nothing but talk about his ta'veren-ism and how she was being blatantly pulled to him. Combine all this with Mat's luck, and she could pull a note out at random, and Mat will receive the proper note without directly betraying information to him. Very clever Verin, you sneaky sneaky lady!   :)

[naath]

 

Only possibly.  We're not sure whether the oath rod can remove the dark oaths.  But it certainly would have been worth a shot.  And to think, it was at Verin's fingertips all that time.

 

Aren't we?  I thought that when the BA hunters caught BA members they made them un-swear, and this hurt them in a clearly "oath removing" way and then they made them spill all about the BA (all that the knew that is) which is (I thought) against the BA oaths.

 

Of course the DO may still consider the un-sworn BA to be oath-bound (Verin may be in for a world of pain post-death), but I don't think they are bound by the OR after that.

[Lambada]

I think the Oath Rod can remove the specific Oaths a BA member makes to the DO - presumably they are taken on it. But if I remember right aren't Dark Friends generally marked in some way (Fain can sense them I think?) even if they've only momenterially thought of serving the DO?

[coteaz]

Well, fain has a part of the dark one inside himself, so he would be able to sense when someone was even thinking about swearing to the dark one, kinda like a sixth sense.

[masty]

In the sequence I really really liked the way Brandon listed all the user theories about Verin and smashed them all, I am not sure if that was intentional but it was awesome.

 

1. Verin never held oath rod/Verin is very old theory

 

Egwene asks Verin you have never held the oath rod. She says something like even before your grandmother I have held oath rod.

 

2. Verin has removed her oaths.

 

Verin says something like yeah but it was not like how you think.

 

3. Verin is Black Ajah

 

To me even this was smashed by the author here. Everyone who pointed verin is Black ajah was kind of wrong because though she is black she is not.

 

It really feels great to read something and find out that there was one little thing you have not considered.

 

And also I dont think Verin could have been healed. The oath to Dark One clearly states that she cannot say anything till the hour of her death. If she could have been healed it wouldn't be her hour of her death and so she had to die otherwise she couldn't have revealed anything.

 

Verin was an awesome character. Right from the moment she matter of factly asks Moriaine "So one of three boys with you must be able to channel and he must be the dragon reborn am i right?", to her deciding to not to poison Cadusene, using compulsion and till the last moment she was totally the most mysterious and amazing character in the wheel of time series. She will be missed in the last 2 books.

 

[Aegnor]

This leads me to believe that she herself isn't sure which note she has given him, and is most likely a mechanism she is using to betray the Dark One due to her Oaths. During their meeting, she did nothing but talk about his ta'veren-ism and how she was being blatantly pulled to him. Combine all this with Mat's luck, and she could pull a note out at random, and Mat will receive the proper note without directly betraying information to him. Very clever Verin, you sneaky sneaky lady!   :)

 

Wow, very cool theory.  I like it.