Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[ed2funy]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

It seems to me that he is actually speaking as if he knows they exist and/or he has seen them.

Thats an assumption on Flinn's part. He did not see them.

 

How do you know its an assumption? We cannot know for sure.

 

 

 

Isn't everyone assuming the Seanchan have the male a'dam because Semi had them?

 

I'm pretty sure the Seanchan don't even know about the Male a'dam unless they are darkfriends that Semi took into confidence. Which is unlikely.

 

So....they just don't have them....

 

okay? settled! (because i said so)  ;D

[decrepid dragon]

But Eganin is the one who gave it to them. I am pretty sure in books 7 or 8 or 9, can't remember which, it has her point of view, and she thinks she hopes its the right thing to do that she gave the male adam to her superiors, and thats why she got promoted to low blood and whatever rank she is. Besides which, the darkfriends had to have taken them off the seanchan, as Eganin gave it to them, unless she handed it to a darkfriend leader, in which case she and her crew would have 'dissappeared' to make sure the other seanchan never found out about it.

[Luckers]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

It seems to me that he is actually speaking as if he knows they exist and/or he has seen them.

Thats an assumption on Flinn's part. He did not see them.

 

How do you know its an assumption? We cannot know for sure.

 

Because Flinn never went amongst the Seanchan. Flinn followed Rand to the meeting with Naeff, who was the Asha'men who went to treat with the Seanchan. Naeff conveyed no information about the Seanchan having more Domination Bands, therefore Flinn's comment is based solely on his assumption that there are more amongst the Seanchan.

[ed2funy]

But Eganin is the one who gave it to them. I am pretty sure in books 7 or 8 or 9, can't remember which, it has her point of view, and she thinks she hopes its the right thing to do that she gave the male adam to her superiors, and thats why she got promoted to low blood and whatever rank she is. Besides which, the darkfriends had to have taken them off the seanchan, as Eganin gave it to them, unless she handed it to a darkfriend leader, in which case she and her crew would have 'dissappeared' to make sure the other seanchan never found out about it.

 

Suroth is a Darkfriend....she probably made sure no one knew about it....

[coteaz]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

 

Flynn and naeff were the ones that were organizing the meeting in the first place, so they did go amongst the seanchan.

It seems to me that he is actually speaking as if he knows they exist and/or he has seen them.

Thats an assumption on Flinn's part. He did not see them.

 

How do you know its an assumption? We cannot know for sure.

 

Because Flinn never went amongst the Seanchan. Flinn followed Rand to the meeting with Naeff, who was the Asha'men who went to treat with the Seanchan. Naeff conveyed no information about the Seanchan having more Domination Bands, therefore Flinn's comment is based solely on his assumption that there are more amongst the Seanchan.

 

Where there not multiple sets with Semi, implying that more were made, therefore Naeff talking about the collars is fact seeing as they know there are more out there.

[Sharaman]

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

"the lightning his eye" - Could this be how Mat loses an eye?

 

With the grey skys overhead all the time, will they finally break in the form of lightning and hit Mat?

Will Mat be fighting the gholam as this happens and gholam dies and Mat lives...

 

 

Another possibility - Fortuona is riding a raken (without a parachute since the Seanchan don't seem to have them - odd because chutes were invented in pre-industrial times) and falls off when its struck by a bolt of OP lightning. Mat who's also along for the ride, grabs her by the scruff of the neck and saves her though he loses his eye to the bolt (since he's not immune to physical effects induced by OP).

 

[Sharaman]

Actually they do, reread the chapter where the asha'man comes back from talking to them, he tells rand that they had them. And of course they have had ample opportunity to copy one since they had the original.

 

Where?

 

What chapter?

 

I've been reading again and I can't find a mention anywhere.  Do you mean when they return from the meeting?  If so, nobody mentions it after that.  If before the meeting, I don't recall any Asha'man going to talk to them at all.

 

Besides, even if they did have male a'dam, I don't see them using them... they corrupt whomever is using them to attempt control over the male channeler, as well, unless two are sharing the burden, and I don't see any Seanchan choosing to attempt control over the Asha'man.  If anything, they'd slay them regardless, since they see them as crazy.

 

They do have Male A'dam according to the Ashaman Naeff and Flynn. Semi had several sets with her when captured and the original would have passed through many hands between being taken from Domon by Egeanin, handed over to the HL Suroth, and finally ending up with Anath (who was then on the other side of the Aryth Ocean). So there may be many copies around.

Tuon also thinks about the few times when people in Seanchan have tried to use male channelers and usually got killed by the black-souled tempests. So it's not an impossible scenario at all.

But I don't see Rand setting up a complicated triple cross - not his style.

[stormcrow]

I like the idea that Tuon was able to resist Rand by sheer force of will, not some tinkering by the pattern to prevent the alliance.

 

I think it was not Tuon who was able to resist Rand, but rather the pattern itself making sure things progress as planned.

 

And a question: do we know of anybody beside Elaida being captured by the Seanchan who can travel?

Could she resist giving up the secret?

The Sul'dam would have to know to ask if Elaida knows how to Travel. To me it seems that the Seanchan only know Rand/Asha'man can travel, so they won't bother asking the captured Aes'Sedai. The Seanchan are also trained to war, which the AS are not, I don't see Sul'dam asking the damane for weaves they know.

[Ged]

Capturing channelers who know how to Travel or who might know how to create the Shadar Logoth mass destruction effect, was a large part of the reason for attacking the White Tower in the first place.

 

As for Tuon resisting Rand. That was interesting. On one side she resisted what I think is Rand's Dark Ta'veren affect, which should've been making her do what he and the pattern wanted, but on the other hand, her actions suit the prophecies, so we have a slightly confusing situation there.

[coteaz]

Rand was forcing the pattern, while the pattern intended to do something else entirely. And it wasn't the shadar logoth destruction that made them attack the WT it was the gateway exploding outside Ebou Dar at the farm.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I think Rand will buckle on a few of his stingy policies in this next book.  He's already buried the hatchet with regard to his dislike of killing women, so why not bind one, especially Tuon, if not only momentarily.  Remember that he specifically forbade any use of the a'dam...  well i think he's going back on that, if only to bind the 9 moons.

[Auld Manriva]

I think Rand will buckle on a few of his stingy policies in this next book.  He's already buried the hatchet with regard to his dislike of killing women, so why not bind one, especially Tuon, if not only momentarily.  Remember that he specifically forbade any use of the a'dam...  well i think he's going back on that, if only to bind the 9 moons.

 

Good Thought.. Seems to fit. Maybe he can incorporate the "kneeling" thing to distract em, then do a slight of hand with air, pull a rabbit outta his hat and collar the little wench. BUT.. Seems it'd have to be Nynaeve or someone who has the bracelet.. Or am I remembering incorrectly?  OH this'd be good.. He removes one from a damane and places it on ForTuona.. Then he saya, "Howdya like that Sister?"

 

Course then Mat gets all up in arms (when he finds out) cause Rand's pickin' on his squeeze... Nahhh, ain't happenin' I don't reckon.

[coteaz]

Yeah it wont happen, rand would get stabbed by her ogier gardeners.

[TheAngryDruid]

I agree that Rand has some major issues with the Seanchan to resolve before TG, and other major issues (obviously).

 

First, Rand & Co have not been deft in using there advantages over the Seanchan: namely, their whole empire is based on a lie. Widespread knowledge that sul'dam can channel would be devastating.

 

A skilled player of the game (Elayne, Morgase, Thom, Cadsuane, Moraine) should be able to undermine them from within, but they haven't really tried.

 

Second, Rand will have to confront Tuon again, but with his changed attitude, he'll be much more formidable, and she'll sense it. However, Rand may try to deal with other problems first.

 

Third, the Two Towers: Black and White.

 

Both the White Tower and the Rebels have sent delegations to the Black Tower that haven't returned. Surely, they are going to be ticked, and travel someone to Tear, and demand an explanation. How Rand resolves his Aes Sedai issues will impact the Seanchan resolution, as the female channelers are the sticking points. You know Eggy is going to want to payback, or freedom for her people (even Elaida). Will he allow the Seanchan to keep their slaves, or not? How his various Aes Sedai issues are resolved impacts the Seanchan.

 

For one, I think Rand will be much changed. I see a marriage with Avy, Min, and Elayne. I see a meeting with Egwene, where a combined plan of action to deal with the Black Tower, and possibly the Seanchan as well.

 

 

[Luckers]

Where there not multiple sets with Semi, implying that more were made, therefore Naeff talking about the collars is fact seeing as they know there are more out there.

 

Naeff didn't talk about the collars, Flinn did. And more to the point he was making the same assumption you are--that more were made than what Semirhage brought with her. We do not know that--it's entirely possible Suroth and Semirhage kept the knowledge to themselves, and only had made what Semirhage needed.

 

They may have more. They may not. We do not know. Nor does Flinn given Semirhage answered no questions.

[coteaz]

Yeah, it was flynn who said that my mistake, i still believe that the seanchan have more male adam though, even if they think that men will go insane, with the amount of male channelers they know exist, it would be a good idea to remake them, if not for the sole purpose of capturing them and using them before they go insane.

[Sharaman]

I think Rand will buckle on a few of his stingy policies in this next book.  He's already buried the hatchet with regard to his dislike of killing women, so why not bind one, especially Tuon, if not only momentarily.  Remember that he specifically forbade any use of the a'dam...  well i think he's going back on that, if only to bind the 9 moons.

 

Just occurred to me - "bind" could also mean force her to swear fealty on the oath rod - those were known as binders and they may hold her, just as an A'dam would.

[Randfan08]

It's time for Rand to get clever.  He has a few problems that need to be dealt with.

 

The first is the Seachan

 

The second is the Black Tower

 

The third is, obviously, Tarmon Gaidon

 

The third problem is most important.  He has to decide what he needs to win.  I don't think vast numbers of warriors is going to win this for him.  Were that the case, they wouldn't really need the Dragon.  Lews Therin sealed the DO, albeit imperfectly, with nothing more than 100 Aes Sedai.  Rand already has the whole weight of the White Tower behind him (he'll know this soon).  He probably needs more than 100 channelers and thus he needs a lot more men than he currently has at his disposal.  The Black Tower needs to be divided.  The Black Tower needs to fall before he can fight Tarmon Gaidon.  The Seachan can't be his enemies during Tarmon Gaidon.  He needs his channelers devoted to fighting off the Black Ajah and remaining few Forsaken while he either takes on Moridin or leads a huge Aes Sedai/Ashaman circle to seal the DO's prison for good.  He can't win with the Black Tower the way it is and he can't win with the state of the Seachan the way it is.

 

The solution is easy.  Pit the Seachan against the Black Tower.  Let Logan know what is going on.  Play the darkfriend's own game, but play it better.  Let Logan and those loyal to him pretend to do battle with the Seachan, and when they show up to raid the Black Tower and deal a huge blow to the Dragon, kill Taim in the confusion and then travel out of there.  The Black Tower, without Logain's men, would probably be 100 men and 50 women strong.  They'd wreak havoc on the Seachen, but would ultimately lose.  The Seachan don't have male adams, so they can't even capture the Ashaman.  It'd be a brutal battle where the Black Tower is crushed and the Seachan are severely weakened.

 

Then in steps Rand and a huge force and the Seachen have no choice but to sign a peace treaty: March with the Dragon on Tarmon Gaidon and all sins are forgiven and we start on neutral ground when it's over.  The Seachen accept considering it's such a sweet deal (they get to attack and rule again, or try to, as soon as its all over).  And that's all there is to it.

 

As soon as Rand finds out the Seachen attack Tar Valon just to strike a blow at him, this plan should become immediately obvious.  It wouldn't be that hard to convince Fortuona that the Black Tower is the bigger threat with a few leaked intelligence reports.  When you have two enemies that don't get along, it usually pays off to let them kill each other first.  It occurs to me Brandon Sanderson would probably think of this and even prefer it, after reading Warbreaker, but I'm wondering what RJ's plans are.  I hope it doesn't involve a White Tower v. Black Tower war because that is so wasteful.

 

I don't see this happening; I don't think Rand means to destroy the BT for one thing. He needs men and women both. He isn't going to just patch the seal, he's going to clear everything away and reseal the DO completely. In the AoL, they didn't even know the DO existed until they drilled the hole into his prison. I think Rands efforts are going to restore an age like that - one where people don't even know the name of the DO eventually. In that world, men and women were both Aes Sedai and co-existed. I don't see how destroying nearly every male that can channel will bring that about, especially now that the male half of the source has been cleansed.

 

That all being said, obviously Rand has some house cleaning to do when it comes to the BT. But I think he just needs to destroy the corrosive elements, not the entire tower itself.

[coteaz]

Rand already has hundreds of male channelers out of the BT, all that is left in the BT are most likely dark friends, so a cleaning of house will happen.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I thought the thing about the domination band had been put to rest already. Suroth gave it to Semirhage, who copied it and planned to use it to leash Rand and whoever he brought to the meeting in KoD. She hid the original somewhere. It's a 99% chance they aren't in mass production anywhere.

 

The Seanchan have no desire to collar the men, as is shown in Tuon's pov, because they do not know the taint is gone. They would simply kill them outright. Flinn is mistaken, Naeff doesn't say anything, so assuming they a.)have them and b.)are going to use them is not a good deduction.

[coteaz]

IF you also remember, tuon says that they have made attempts at training male channelers in seanchan pre cleansing, i cant remember the name she used, but dont you think if they had male adam they would use them. while i myself think it likely that they do have them, i would not be surprised if they did not.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Yeah I remember when she was talking about it, and she said half the time the people got killed by their own troops who went insane. I just thought she would have mentioned if they had collars for them, it seemed an appropriate time.

[coteaz]

Yeah, true, okay you have convinced me, i still think that there are some male adam floating around the place, but if fortuona doesn't know then the mainstream seanchan wont know either, so my theory is that either the ones semi had were all that were made including the original OR someone in the seanchan who is a darkfriend has more, and isn't revealing it.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

That is feasible and I think more likely than the Seanchan being outfitted to mass collar the Black Tower like they did the White.

[ShiftedInsights]

 

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

 

 

OK, I'm going to put on my analysis hat for a few minutes. 

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

 

    This looks to have at least two meanings; the first being simply that Mat ha very good luck that brings him wealth and victory in battle. Luck, or Fortune, rides with him. His Taveren Power bends random odds to his favor. It could be said that all taveren action is like that, but the pattern seems to work chance for them all differently; Perrin and Rand do not get the Yahtzee cup in their head, and I bet if they all played dice, Mat would still win.  The Pattern and Rand have a serious push-pull relationship going, but there isn't anyone who would call him 'Lucky'.

    Besides Mat's luck, this passage alludes to his marriage to Tuon.  'Rides on the sun on high' could refer to her being on a raken at some point in the future, as someone else mentioned, or it could just mean that she has a great deal of power, as in the Seanchan saying 'On the Heights, the paths are filled with daggers' (loose quote).  Mat is the Fox, a la the Prophecies and the damane fortune telling to Tuon so that isn't really open to interpretation.  'Makes the ravens fly', can have a double meaning though.  It could mean that now that Mat is the Prince of the Ravens he has command over Seanchan armies. (or he was when Tuon was not Empress, he could have a new title waiting for him when next they meet, which I'm sure he would love), but the military structure seems to be separate from the ruling family, it does not even sound like Mat would have a great deal of civil authority compared to the Empress, I don't see the Seanchan Empire turning over the commander in chief of the military job based on who marries the Empress. 

    The phrase could also allude to the more literal interpretation; a Fox stalking through brush kicking up birds is to Mat whupping the Seanchan so efficiently so far they should change their name to the Usually Victorious Army.  He already bested them on the battlefield, and with Aludra's vengeance inspired Bronze Cannons he will certainly bring some surprises when next they fight, and he pretty much told Tuon that despite their marriage he would still fight her soldiers. 

 

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

  The luck his soul part is just more poetic naming of Mat.  The lighting bit confuses me, we know Mat will lose an eye, but this phrase does not nail it down that he will lose it to lightning, it says his eye IS lightning.  As my personal native theory, I believe this refers to the command he will soon have over the first black powder based artillery, because of the dream he had referring to him grasping lightning in his hand.  From there, and this thought just came to me, I think he will lose an eye during the testing of the new cannons he will have built, but I have no proof of that.

    As for 'He snatches the moons from out the sky', this could refer once again to his marriage to Tuon, but that isn't entirely clear.  As was pointed out in another thread, Tuon was the Daughter of the Nine Moons, but now that she is the Empress, she IS the Nine Moons.  So from that, it could mean that Mat will end up pulling Tuon from 'the heights', bringing an end to her dynasty.  I can't find any other meanings to pull out of this, but if anyone else can I would love to hear them.