Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[Nakor]

Mat was in the book because he met Verin, and since Verin died later when meeting Eg, she can't meet him in the next book.

[Vorkia]

Sanderson is NOT Jordan.  BS even mentioned in his forward how he wasn't going to try to duplicate RJ's writing style, it would do his memory a disservice and I agree.  BS is using his own writing style to finish the books.  Be thankful that someone has taken up that mantel, otherwise we would all be left hanging.

 

Yes the voices of certain characters (esp Mat) are different but some voices are harder to duplicate than others.  The important thing is to keep the essence of the story and I thinks BS did a wonderful job of that.  It's just going to take some time to get use to the new format.  E enjoy the fact there is more dialogue and less internal monologueing, the LB is fast approaching and now is a time for action, not having a discussion with yourself.

 

Just go with it, there are more important things to discuss than BS writing style V RJ's writing style, such as Who the hell killed Asmo (and no I don't expect that debate taken up here) and what is in that damned letter that Verin gave my favorite gambler or when will we finally hear..."Moraine?!?!  But your DEAD!"?

[decrepid dragon]

couldn't agree more Vorkia. I would like to see all the people critisising BS to even do half as good a job at completing the WoT.

[Dorkfiend]

couldn't agree more Vorkia. I would like to see all the people critisising BS to even do half as good a job at completing the WoT.

 

I criticize BS all the time.  It's the best way to counter BS, aside from actually ignoring BS.  But sometimes, you can't ignore BS because so many people are dazzled by BS that you must actively wade in the BS and shovel the stuff.

 

Seriously folks.  Our New Author deserves a better acronym. BRandon Sanderson?  Brandon SAnderson?  Could someone ask him if he has a middle initial?  If not can we give him one?  BKS?  BRRS?  RJJR?

 

[Muad Cheade]

That's really all that needed to happen. He's had tons of good exposure over the last few books. Did we really need the elaborate set up with him gambling yet again, the dice in his head AGAIN?

 

Is that not what Mat is ? The gambler and the son of battles? Even the Finns call him the first. Also, he need to gamble to help feed his men so why would he not do it in a way that he knew he'd succeed in.

 

Robert Jordan had already well established this character as one that often struggled to have people take him seriously, who got himself into trouble by acting rashly or by jumping to conclusions a little too quickly.

I never took him for a character who would just randomly say a bunch of dumb stuff to get a cheap laugh from someone like Talmanes.

 

That's not exactly true. Even Tuon noticed that he fits in whichever element he's in. Also, he's maturing (can't believe I'd say that about Mat), he's accepting his destiny, he's being more responsible for his men, and he's trying a little too hard to prove to his men that he's still the same rogue as before (which he's not).

 

Talmanes, what made him so funny was how dour and serious he was and EVERY SO RARELY, he'd make a dry remark with a straight face that may or may not have been a jab or a joke at Mat's or someone else's expense, but he'd never so much as crack a smile. He used to be very subtle.

 

No...Mat makes comments that Talmanes occasionally smiles but he never laughs. That fits into Sanderson's characterization of him. Also, we haven't exactly gotten that many scenes with him in it. Even when Mat first met him he made a sarcastic remark and smiled with the other Cairhienin lords.

 

Vanin would never hesitate to show his feelings, while Talmanes in contrast, you were never sure he had feelings.

 

Yeah...Guys don't really like to admit when their jealous of another one really. And it's understandable that Vanin's worried about his position.

 

As for Talmanes, we have seen his emotions. Especially since it seems he has a haunted past (see the scene in LoC when he is drunk and Mat saves him from the Shaido assassins).

 

That's what that was, and in this book they were all changed into a bunch of buffoons at some point.

It was very off-putting.

 

That's not the impression I got at all.

 

You either stick to a script or ask one of RJ's staff for some clarification. Ask Harriet...or simply come to your own conclusion about how it should be written, but for goodness sakes take responsibility for how you write it because you should well know that in Sanderson's shoes, his characterizations or deviations from RJ's tone will be highly scrutinized.

 

That's true but also remember he's had Harriet and Team Jordan with him every step of the way.

 

I've come to the opinion that this is an example that shows us that Sanderson probably needed a bit more time to figure out his tone and character in this section.

Better yet, he should have had an editing eye and though about being simpler with the whole thing.

 

Harriet was the editor of this book and the majority of Jordan's.

 

Mat's been a major POV over the last few books, and I really don't think he needed another semi-heroic scene.

 

You can't turn off heroism like a switch. Great men do great things. it's in his nature. It's the same reason he's always drawn to battles.

 

Perrin on the other hand, I think really needed a pick up to re-establish his heroic status. I think Sanderson missed the opportunity.

Instead Mat's character gets a bad treatment and you get Perrin even further alienated from what he was in Shadow Rising.

 

Perrin just annihilated the Shaido and freed his wife, leige lady, and 100,000 prisoners. How much heroism do you want?

 

I mean...antagonizing Hopper as a guide? Another thing that made me want to spit with frustration.

 

In Winter's Heart, Perrin attacked and could have killed Hopper. That was all Jordan's writing.

 

Filler or not, these characters must be treated with better care, not used as an experiment or as inconsequential pawns to the bigger plot.

 

Sanderson is as big a fan of the WoT as us and Robert Jordan was one of his heroes. I doubt he'd take these characters nor the entire series with levity.

 

[Mr Ares]

That says nothing about whether or not it can be Healed, nor does it imply anything. Really, there's no evidence to say it can't be Healed (although there are a lot of analogies). Try checking out some of the discussions about Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle, sometime. They were the three AS Rand "stilled" at Dumai's Wells, but it has been argued that the description is closer to burning out. And as they were Healed, it is possible that not only can burning out be Healed, it has been. Like I say, look it up some time.

Really? I didn't know of that theory. Rand was the catalyst for their removal from the One Power. That would indicate a severing not burning out. They were severed when Rand broke through the shield not by overdrawing on the Power. Although, if you are right, it would be an interesting twist.

The way it is described is different from normal stilling - crushing rather than cutting. Of course, going back to analogies, if you think of the ability to Channel as like your hands, then stilling would be having your hands cut off, burning out would be having your hands burnt off, but what Rand did would be crushing your hands to a pulp, which doesn't quite fit either.

 

I have a feeling that Noal is actually Jain Farstrider - I think his "Jain was my cousin" was a quick lie about his past when Mat asked if he was any relation. This would tie in with his lack of memories and stories about Shara and suchlike.

Admittedly this is mainly a wild stab in the dark as I don't know too much about Jain Charin...

That Noal is actually Jain Farstrider is a popular theory.

[coteaz]

I believe that he may be Jain farstrider as everyone seems to think, so many things point to this, but i wonder what nasty compulsion has been woven on him, and i wonder if he will be a threat to mat in the future because of this.

[Mr Ares]

I believe that he may be Jain farstrider as everyone seems to think, so many things point to this, but i wonder what nasty compulsion has been woven on him, and i wonder if he will be a threat to mat in the future because of this.

Well, it does appear Ishy did something to Farstrider, so that's quite possible.

[coteaz]

I could imagine, mat just rescuing moiraine and then Noal saying "sorry mat, but this has to be done" and then stabbing him in the back.

[Jonn]

 

 

Mm, I was about to edit my post, but you went to the heart of what I wanted to add. What happened to these expert WOT editors that were reading the book? Didn't they pick up that Mat was written differently? I know alot of people are going to hassle me about this, but for the sake of the books, maybe they should be delayed until BS gets it right with key figures. I mean, RJ went through plenty of drafts before each of his books were done. Why does BS have to rush simply because we want to read it asap?

 

EDIT: Oh and jonn, it;s not appropriate to use the book to test things out, but what is appropriate/idealistic and what is reality are not hand in hand. This could very well have been BS's dip of his toes in the water on a very unimportant part of Mat's arc. If mat turns into RJ Mat in the next book, it's easy for us to pretend that the mistake/mat offness didnt occur.

 

If you know me...and maybe you don't, I am pretty idealistic when it comes to this series.

Can't help it.

This series has been my friend and companion for 16 years. Having someone ["dip his toes" in it is very personal to a lot of people, including me.

 

Bottom line is that Sanderson really failed to "get" the character and hence made some pretty serious errors in the writing of Mat. Too serious to overlook or even forgive as something that can be overlooked.

 

I was also pretty surprised at Perrin's treatment seeing as how Sanderson claims that he's his favorite character. Perrin seemed kind of boring...and too similar to Rand in tone.

 

Mat was too chatty and frivolous. He really did read like fanfic and to some extent so did Perrin. Referring to events in the past step by step and what his emotional state was in each moment...tacky really.

 

Rand was alright, but he had similar moments.

[coteaz]

I think mat was well written, different, but still well written. i attribute this to his change of circumstances really.

[decrepid dragon]

wow, why didn't I notice any of this stuff everyone's complaining about. I agree with coteaz, I didn't notice Talmanes change at all, he still did everything the same, it just never mentioned that he had a twinkle in his eye before this book. Some people maybe just obsess over this too much.

 

What really annoys me is when people say that this plot doesn't fit. for all that some say its the 'authors responsablility to give this to the fans' its his franchise to do what he wants with. If RJ has it ending with pink leprechauns saving them from Martians and teenage mutant ninja turtles, it ends like that. Although BrS is a different writer pretty much everything about any WoT plotline was layed down or written beforehand. Including zombie village hinderstap.

 

I may be ranting. Just a hunch.

 

I found not that much wrong in this book, I just always viewed Mat as a flippant character. Words are cheap and all that.

[boreden]

This may sound a bit mean but Matt was off at least the part about the scripts . I think him being a worried husband was a nice twist rather amusing to see him in such a state of disarray. I felt though his entire part in the book was just to remind folks he was there and have him move to Camleyn .  I thought it could have been done a little better .

 

Secondly I always felt Matt is the most clever character and that dident really come through . Matt is the general and Strategist his plan with the script was not that.

[coteaz]

He was in the book to remind people that he existed, in preparation for the next book. i could easily see, mat rescuing moiraine at teh same time that rand is on dragonmount, and then them all meeting up in caemlyn to plan.

[jemron]

Get over it people.  At least we have the books being written/finished.

 

If you didn't like how Mat was written in this book, well, just re-imagine those scenes in your heads with the Mat that you have come to know and love and move on.  BS isn't RJ.  End of discussion.

[boreden]

First off some people have known these characters for longer then half the posters on these forums have been alive , so they have a right to feel attached to a character and their personality.

 

Secondly nobody is bashing BS a review is just a helpful critique that can make the future better however a useless get over it post doesn't add anything to the discussion.  The feeling that Mat's character was off seems to be the general consensus I felt that right after reading his passages before I even came to these forums.  RJ spent the better part of the last 3 books building him up I think people just expected him to continue on that trend. On the up and up I think most of the characters and dialogue interaction improved under BS.

 

I agree with Coteaz the scenes were there to keep Matt in the story and plan his course for the next book.  We also see Mat grow , typically Mat never puts himself on the front lines unless he has , however he went against that in Hindertaps saving his red arm. This was either intentional growth or uncharacteristic behavior.

[Phaedra Sedai]

I honestly have to say that I really didnt find anything wrong with how Mat was portrayed.  Mat is among my favorite characters in the series and I felt he was written quite well.  Hes definitely different but I feel that the changes in him are more in line with the story and his character arc then being written by a new author. I really enjoyed his scenes and liked seeing some growth in him as a character. He could only stay "the immature gambler" for so long before his experiences and responsiblities caught up with him.  The way he was written I felt was exactly right in his reaction to his new feelings of both responsiblity and worry over Tuon, both in his denial of those feelings and trying to prove to everyone that nothing had changed.

Also while it has been said several times, and I think by myself before, TGS is really only 1/3 of AMoL so it maybe things that others have noticed dont ring true or feel like filler may turn out to be anything but once we have all of it.  Personally I am suspending judgement on those until I have all 3 books in my hands.

That's just my opinion!

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

Just a quick note on an idea that occurred to me, regarding Mat's story-arc.

 

This is more speculation on how he's going to beat the Aelfinn/Eelfinn and rescue Moiraine.

 

Now, throughout the books - virtually every time the game "Snakes and Foxes" is mentioned - it is always followed by how you can't win without cheating. This, obviously, led me to the conclusion that Mat is going to find some fiendish way to trick the Snakes and Foxes into getting Moiraine back. But... little Olver is always certain that he can win by sticking to the rules.

 

So.

 

We know that Olver isn't Gaidal Cain, because RJ himself has said so. This means that Olver has some role to play in the coming books, or else so much effort would not have been put into his characterisation.

 

This slim and tenuous line of logic leads me to the idea that Mat's going to find some method of "winning" this particular game, only he'll do it without cheating. Now, as you can see, this is all based entirely on the fact that it seems almost too obvious that it's going to go as we expect it to. I just wanted to know what everyone else thought of this particular idea!

 

I think you may be on to something.  Think about it--you play the game with DICE.  Hmmmmmmmmmm.  Maybe Mat's luck can force a win for him where it would otherwise be impossible?

[saidarisnowtainted]

I think Oliver is going to somehow manage to be the third person, whether he sneaks in or somehow manages to talk Mat and Thom into taking him.  He does have more knowledge about the Snakes and Foxes from playing the game and from talking with Birgitte (other than Mat of course who has actually been there).  I also think his innocence is going to be a key factor (ie thinking he should be able to win the game by following the rules).  Nothing to support this at all, only an inkling.

 

i think you are on to something.  Perhaps Oliver's presence is important to PREVENT Mat from cheating but rather to trust his luck to win the game--if you thought the gamble in Hindersnap was dramatic, wait till you see Matt throw some dice at that moment!

[Declan]

there has been ALOT and i mean ALOT of discussion on how exactly they will get in (bronze knife and make that symbol) and what they will do to get Moiraine back.

 

I personally think they will have to bring in fire, iron, and an instrument. But i don't know. Maybe the Finns would care to take a wager with Mat and roll the dice to see who gets Moiraine for eternity. that would be an epic roll of the dice. haha.

[Jonn]

I guess what's really bothered me about Mat in the book is that he really doesn't seem to be in his own skin.

In interviews with RJ, he describes writing characters as a process of becoming them and then writing from their point of view.

I found a lot of the time Mat's POV would reference points or events that the Mat in the book just before would never spend a thought on.

 

His idea of the Tower of Ghenjei as a structure is very shady due to his status carrying the Shadar Logoth dagger, yet on the way to Hinderstap he's thinking of the building in terms of him being able to visualize it. He references Bayle Domon knowing the way there and he even mentions Four Kings...all of the relations to the way to and from the Tower of Ghenjei would normally be a foggy memory of a dream to Mat, and they were in Knife of Dreams. Mat doesn't trust his memories that much at this point, yet he refers to these dodgy memories with something approaching clarity and I am not comfortable with that jump.

 

He ever references Thom's nephew being killed by Aes Sedai, as he wonders why Thom is so quick to go after Moiraine. This is like one too many things that would cross mat's mind at any given time and it doesn't ring true.

 

I understand a lot of you want to give Sanderson a chance and be nice about it, but let's not do so and be delusional about what a significant change there is from one book to the next.

 

I found Egwene's sequences to be almost perfect in transition from the last book, and I think I know why.

Sanderson seems to write female characters better than male characters. Call it what you want, but I think Sanderson's inner dialogue just seems to work better with a female character.

Could this ultimately be Harriet's contribution to the series? I don't know, but it seems likely to me.

When RJ wrote men, there was always a grittiness, a wryness...each man an individual but similar in the way they approached things as defined by their personal codes.

 

I think Sanderson may have fallen into a trap with some of his characterizations in that instead of starting from the man as an individual, he has boiled them down to their role in the narrative. And in regards to Mat he has decided Mat is to be "witty" and "light" and a reluctant hero/complainer. The reason Rand and Perrin seem the same is because they are playing in similar roles if not in the same scale. Mat sticks out because his role is different and just pushed too far to be different as a counterbalance.

 

Talmanes...what made him interesting is the fact that you didn't have to make reference to any inner smile or twinkle in his eyes. It was implied. It was never made mention of because if you paid attention you could spot it without it being said. You were shown this part of his character years ago when he first accompanied Mat...to be told this fact so obviously, bluntly, obtusely is quite shocking and amateurish really, as if you didn't trust the readers to have figured this out about Talmanes...that he uses his seeming lack of reaction as a means to draw humor out of situations where he is in the presence of a VERY animated individual in Mat, or even the gruff and blunt personage of someone like Vanin.    If you don't notice or care about the change in tone, frankly I doubt you'd care if Mat grew horns and danced with Lucifer in a book.

 

Yeah, give the new author a fair shake, but if he shakes you back too hard, you have to be able to check him and yourself. Cause if you're willing to lie to yourself, then the people who aren't being honest with you have that much an easier time to pass off great frauds with your blessing.

Sanderson may not have written a bad book, but I can honestly say that his further offerings M U S T be better, else he will be viewed in the future as a very disappointing successor indeed.

[Vambram]

Sanderson may not have written a bad book, but I can honestly say that his further offerings M U S T be better, else he will be viewed in the future as a very disappointing successor indeed.

 

 

 

 

Whatever, Jonn.

I am glad that most of the readers and posters here do not have such a scathing opinion regarding Brandon Sanderson's work in TGS. I rank TGS as one of the top five books in the WOT series. I believe that 99% of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of those whom bought and read TGS have the same or similar opinion about TGS.

 

To everyone else, I say.

Lets remember that Mat has undergone many changes in the previous few books. Now that he is a married man, Mat himself openly discussed those changes with Talmanes by insisting that Tuon won't be able to get Mat to stop with his drinking and gambling. In typical Mat fashion, he does say that he will stop sleeping around with other women, though.

I found Mat's "voice" and characterization in TGS to be very believable. Sure, its not exactly the same as the way that RJ would have written for Mat. The same is true for nearly ALL of the characters in my opinion. BUT, the way that I hear some complain about it, I would have thought that somehow Mat got kidnapped and a doppleganger was put in Mat's place for TGS. But to me, I believe that there has just been way too much over reacting concering any changes in Mat's "voice."

 

[coteaz]

I couldn't agree more with you Vambram, well said.

[decrepid dragon]

here here! I think its just that Mat is most people's favourite character, and they just jump on any changes without actually seeing if they are good or not. I get that maybe a couple people actually don't like the new book because it is not in the same style as RJ, not just because its gone from RJ to BrS, but I wonder if they read any other fantasy books and enjoy them, as any style that is not RJ is 'bad'.

[firstfishman]

I really enjoyed Mat's "voice" in TGS.

 

Does anyone actually know if the changes in Mat were written by BrS or by RJ? Which parts were written by whom? If Mats parts were written by BrS, were the changes influenced by RJ? Were other changes influenced by RJ, or are all changes the fault of BrS?

 

Any way you look at it, RJ is gone, and you'll either have to move on, or stop reading. Quit trying to crucify BrS. He is doing a better job than any of his critics could. This is a very eloborate series, with a huge following. Each and every reader has a different idea of where the story should end up. Those who dont like where it goes, will blame BrS. He has one of the hardest writing tasks in history and I, for one, think he is surpassing all expectations.

 

END RANT!