No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[richnewton82]

.

[Nightstrike]

The debate was going on since the 27th because people said BS wrote the scene wrong.

Yeah, I think there were some that also thought that there "must be a difference between TP and OP Balefire". Neither of those views are correct, of course.

[Mr Ares]

shouldn't he be Balefire's number one fan and tell his team to go crazy with it?

They want to rule the world. Not destroy it.

 

What's to stop you from saying travel through space is an illusion?

Nothing. He already did: "Distance, time, and therefore, velocity, are all illusions."

 

See, the thing is that all places are one place, right, but you need to take it a step further: that place is really big.

[WWWwombat]

What's to stop you from saying travel through space is an illusion?

Nothing. He already did: "Distance, time, and therefore, velocity, are all illusions."

 

See, the thing is that all places are one place, right, but you need to take it a step further: that place is really big.

 

Are you agreeing with the crazy solipsist?

[daishar_e_mordero]

Clearly that isn't the case. Balefire has worked in the same way since the first time it was used. My first post in this thread is all the evidence we need to show that balefire forces the pattern to resolve paradoxes the moment it is used. Sometimes things are undone, sometimes they are not. Cause -> Effect isn't relevant. All that matters is that no paradoxes remain. That's why Min still has bruises. That's why Nynaeve's boat scene is the way it is. That's why balefire itself is removed from its own paradoxes. That's why the DO cannot transmigrate a balefired Chosen. Etc etc etc. We've seen it work the same way under Jordan and now under Sanderson. People are so unwilling to conceed the point that they are now saying BS and Harriet are wrong. lol....

 

Although I do agree with your very acceptable explation I must admit you missed the point about WHY the DO cannot transmigrate a balefired soul. Balefire cannot stop them from being reincarnated; it stopped the DO from ressurrecting them because the DO needs to grab your soul the moment you die to do that, and with Balefire, you died five minutes ago.

 

Anyways... Now for my question. I have read through the whole WoT series about 8 or 9 times now and I have had some suspicions for a while now (a VERY long while ;) )about using balefire for more then simply burning threads from the pattern. I have checked the forums here and the theory post/forums on wotmania (back when it was still up) but I couldnt find any sort of information refering to this kind of question. Since balefire automatically removes and/or resolves paradoxes in the pattern, wouldn't it be possible to purposely alter the flow and/or state of time using this very little thought of effect of balefire. I certainly didn't notice this effect until the 2nd or 3rd readthrough of the series and then the questions started poping up. Since balefire undoes events that has already occured, wouldn't the opposite also hold true when used in the right situation? To make an event that wouldn't couldn't happen under normal circumstances and force it to take place. Could someone please answer this question for me. Thanks.

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

Although I do agree with your very acceptable explation I must admit you missed the point about WHY the DO cannot transmigrate a balefired soul. Balefire cannot stop them from being reincarnated; it stopped the DO from ressurrecting them because the DO needs to grab your soul the moment you die to do that, and with Balefire, you died five minutes ago.

 

No I understand your point. It is exactly as it is written in the book. If time rewound and replayed, as people are suggesting, the DO wouldn't be powerless to time at all.

 

You are the only person I have noticed talking about time rewinding and replaying.

[Nightstrike]

Do you want to add your views? Then feel free to do so.

 

Regardless of "terminology" (if that was what you were objecting against?), we do know what the effects of Balefire are. And what they are not.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

"History replaying"="everything replaying" => "butterfly effect"="Nynaeve not staying in sinking boat"

 

"Reality part rewritten"="some things changing"="no butterfly effect"=>"Nynaeve staying in sinking boat"

 

(Just suggesting a few terms.  :D  :)  )

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

What's to stop you from saying travel through space is an illusion?

Nothing. He already did: "Distance, time, and therefore, velocity, are all illusions."

 

See, the thing is that all places are one place, right, but you need to take it a step further: that place is really big.

Are you agreeing with the crazy solipsist?

No, I'm paraphrasing Terry Pratchett.

[richnewton82]

.

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

Balefire - weave of the Power discovered and used liberally by both sides during the War of Power for nearly a year. After that, both sides stopped using it, without a truce or anything.

 

Entire cities were burned out by this. The Pattern continued, and the Wheel kept on spinning. Hmm..

 

Imagine it all as a sort of water driven spinning wheel. The water = the One Power that drives the Wheel, the Wheel has seven spokes, representing each an Age, and both spin out the Pattern, a specific network of lives that are, were and will be lived.

 

Balefire then, if applied to this analogy, is the same as it is described - 'the cutting of threads permanently from the Pattern.' It's like cutting threads with a pair of scissors from the thread being spun into the "Blanket of Ages." There are holes, everywhere, marking where Balefire was used - War of Power, some instances by Moiraine, Rand, etc.

 

The Pattern continues to spin despite this permanant removal of thread(s). What was done prior by the person (thread) burned from the Pattern, depending on the amount of Power used against them to weave Balefire, will revert the actions of the slain person back to a certain point.

 

It is impossible to drive back what a person did entirely (Rahvin) - only from minutes to days - No one could possibly wield that much of the Power, even with the Choedhan Kal.

 

However, if a thread is burned, then the Pattern continues regardless. Those who witness the occurence of Balefire being used WILL REMEMBER the ACTION, and the PEOPLE, PLACE, THINGS, ETC, that were there before they were 'Balfire'd' from the Pattern.

 

But, as Nynaeve's sinking boat, Moghedien balefire'd it in half - it went from floating to sinking and near underwater in a moment. Thus it burned the thread that showed the boat being cut in half, and it's first moments of sinking.

 

Balefire is like a NUCLEAR MISSILE - dangerous to control, dangerous to use, dangerous to study, BUT easy to wipe out entire civilizations if wished.. Insanity, grief, and madness, as well as the permanent removal of past lives that were balefired removes them permanently from the Pattern, erasing any possible future lives they could have lived.

 

 

[John Galt]

The Wheel must maintain causality, otherwise there is no order to the world.  If Aiel are allowed to be cut in half by dead Trollocs, there is no order, no causality.

 

Same thing holds for the Rand/Semi interaction.  If Rand balefires Semi back to before she put the Domination Band on his neck, she can't force him to choke Min.  If she can't force him to choke Min, there can be no bruises on her neck.  Causality requires that it work that way.

 

obviously not or the scene is miswritten, balefire itself is a paradox and should unwrite its own use, nynaeve shouldn't have nearly drowned, and the damage to the palace shouldn't have existed in TFoH.

 

time does not go backwards and rewrite. RJ being a physicist is even greater support for this as reverse time travel is not possible in the real world anymore than it is in WoT... The pattern only corrects paradox, it doesn't rewrite time. That is impossible. Otherwise no amount of balefire could ever destroy the pattern. It would simply backtrack and be much different than it was at the time of balefire use. We know that balefire threatens to unravel the pattern. That wouldn't be the case under your theory.

 

Not true. Review your quantum. At the speed of light, all times are effectively simultaneous. Further, outside the light cones, you can make effects proceed their causes- how you'd get there is another matter.

 

Do you hear that sound?  That is the sound of the world weeping. Do you feel time slowing?  That is because about seven scientists are spinning so fast in their graves that the Earth's rotation is being perceptively affected.

 

Review you SCIENCE.  Special Relativity has nothing to do with Quantum.  Everything about your statement was wrong.  Not only was it wrong but it had less than nothing to contribute to the discussion.  It served only to correct someone so you could feel intellectually superior while simultaneously proving that there are few human beings that are your intellectual inferiors.

 

I'm sorry everyone.  Back to the topic.

 

I don't understand why people assume that just because the BF wave was large it was also super powerful.  Rand knew he had to make it powerful enough to burn Graendal's thread back at least a few minutes, but just because he made it large enough to destroy a whole palace, doesn't mean it was also powerful enough to burn everyone's thread back beyond what was needed (a few minutes).  Or maybe I misunderstand BF and you can't control how large the weave is, you can only control how powerful it is, in which case, please feel free to correct me.

 

Another thing is, am I the only one that thinks Graendal might have seen this coming?  I wouldn't be very surprised if Rand still has a cleverly compulsed Lord in his hands and Graendal was in hiding.

[lillcheese]

Another thing is, am I the only one that thinks Graendal might have seen this coming?  I wouldn't be very surprised if Rand still has a cleverly compulsed Lord in his hands and Graendal was in hiding.

 

No, you're not the only one.  This debate raged first on the 1-50 thread, then on Forsaken Round-Up.  We seem to be at a stalemate on the issue.

[Mr. Dragon]

Review you SCIENCE.  Special Relativity has nothing to do with Quantum.

 

Relativity does has something to do with quantum, we just can't figure out what.

[John Galt]

Review you SCIENCE.  Special Relativity has nothing to do with Quantum.

 

Relativity does has something to do with quantum, we just can't figure out what.

 

Misleading and irrelevant.  Please don't try to talk about science if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

As for the Graendal comment, I retract it.  I didn't mean to hijack this thread into another Graendal alive/dead crazy fest.  I just looked at that "Forsaken Roundup" thread and realized the subject has been talked to death.

[Nightstrike]

But, as Nynaeve's sinking boat, Moghedien balefire'd it in half - it went from floating to sinking and near underwater in a moment. Thus it burned the thread that showed the boat being cut in half, and it's first moments of sinking.

Wasn't it completely underwater? It had been sinking for minutes all of a sudden.

 

[australite]

I believe they talk about removing the thread from the pattern & that thread is burned away.  The more power used in balefire the further back the thread is burnt out.  This works well in a couple of aspects.

1.  When people talk about the Pattern it's mentioned as the warp & woof, the lace etcera.

2.  When 1 thread is removed then the pattern can adjust to that but when a large amount of threads are removed then the entire pattern can actually become undone.

 

When Rand destroy's Grandel's house there is an unweaving of the pattern which is felt at least as far away as Ebon Dar.  I'm not sure if this was poetic license or not ... during the first war where they first started to use BF on entire cities why wasn't it discovered immeditately.  I would expect that if you BF an entire city of say 5000 people(conservatively) the effect would have been magnified immensely. 

[Mr. Dragon]

Review you SCIENCE.  Special Relativity has nothing to do with Quantum.

 

Relativity does has something to do with quantum, we just can't figure out what.

 

Misleading and irrelevant.  Please don't try to talk about science if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

As for the Graendal comment, I retract it.  I didn't mean to hijack this thread into another Graendal alive/dead crazy fest.  I just looked at that "Forsaken Roundup" thread and realized the subject has been talked to death.

 

How is it misleading? Quantum mechanics and relativity must be reconciled for a general theory of everything.

[John Galt]

Review you SCIENCE.  Special Relativity has nothing to do with Quantum.

 

Relativity does has something to do with quantum, we just can't figure out what.

 

Misleading and irrelevant.  Please don't try to talk about science if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

As for the Graendal comment, I retract it.  I didn't mean to hijack this thread into another Graendal alive/dead crazy fest.  I just looked at that "Forsaken Roundup" thread and realized the subject has been talked to death.

 

How is it misleading? Quantum mechanics and relativity must be reconciled for a general theory of everything.

 

 

Because it's completely irrelevant to the point I was making and, like the OP, was just a method for you to post your knowledge and pass it off as significant or thought provoking.  Both general relativity and quantum mechanics are clearly approximations of reality.  A deeper understanding of physics that would allow for the relative accuracy of both approximations on their scale (macro and micro) eludes us.  A "unifying" theory has nothing to do with the original post I was refuting where the author stated:

 

"Review your quantum!  Light..."  And then he preceded to inaccurately describe special relativity, which has nothing to do with quantum physics.  The fact that the theories of relativity and quantum physics have to be "reconciled" is about as relevant to the point as claiming "the proof of micro evolution does not prove the existence of a mechanism for macro evolution."  That statement is basically true, but fairly misleading and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[WWWwombat]

I only have a little quantum but iirc the Hamiltonian is classical yes?

[John Galt]

I don't know.  I've only had a little physics, but a particle is used in newtonian mechanics, right?

 

I can't figure out if you're baiting or you've never heard of wikipedia.  I could only think to respond to such a nonsensical question with an equally nonsensical question.

[Nightstrike]

Because it's completely irrelevant to the point I was making

Yeah, I agree. I thought this this thread was about Balefire. People seem to be confusing fiction with the real world. It easily happens, I know.

 :D

 

 

[Dorkfiend]

It all depends on the quantum denier threadcount.

 

Can we get back to balefire??

[WWWwombat]

I don't know.  I've only had a little physics, but a particle is used in newtonian mechanics, right?

 

I can't figure out if you're baiting or you've never heard of wikipedia.  I could only think to respond to such a nonsensical question with an equally nonsensical question.

 

I like u