No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[SheaththeSword]

Since Balefire doesn't change people's reactions even when it burns back, Asmodean (if no longer killed at that time) would not have been eating.  So even if Asmodean were "un-killed" he would've starved to death.

 

Then how did Mat come to arrive in the middle of the battle with the trollocs on the way from Rhuidean(sp)? I realise he was not balefired himself, but by your reasoning, he would have just stood where he was and starved. If he had just stood where he was, he could not have traveled with the wagons and so suddenly be taking part in the battle. If something is changed by balefire, events and interactions do change, people just have no memory of it.

 

Perhaps i misunderstood your post, but i don't think so.

 

 

I don't think Asmodean was balefired. Why? RaT severed his ties to the DO. I believe the DO can only give rebirth to the threads that are directly connected to him. The Forsaken all have the same tie to him that Asmo had. When any Forsaken get balefired the thread and the ties to the DO are severed. Without that tie, the DO can't revive his Chosen servants. Asmodean IMO didn't need to be balefired to never be seen again or resurrected by the DO, because he lost his ties to the DO. Remember how shocked Asmo was when the tie was cut to begin with. He had an incredulous look, like the impossible had been done. Not only did Asmo realize that he was no longer protected against the taint, but that he was no longer tied to the DO, and that if he was killed(Forsake or by whomever)the DO would not be able to rebirth his soul.

 

Once gain, just an opinion.

 

My opinion is that it is not the severing of the link that prevents the DO from ressurecting souls. He is called the Lord of the Grave, implying that anyone who dies by natural means (ie not balefired) can be ressurected by him if he chose. We are told that if Rand dies (before TG), the DO will simply take his soul for his own and have power over the DR, and so win (IIRC we are told this by other sources along with the Chosen, however i may be wrong).

 

In my opinion, the tie grants access to the TP, protects men from the taint, and possibly some other, warder-bond-like effects that we wil enver hear of, but does not facilitate ressurection. The DO can do that anyway

[Shazzai]

Since Balefire doesn't change people's reactions even when it burns back, Asmodean (if no longer killed at that time) would not have been eating.  So even if Asmodean were "un-killed" he would've starved to death.

 

Then how did Mat come to arrive in the middle of the battle with the trollocs on the way from Rhuidean(sp)? I realise he was not balefired himself, but by your reasoning, he would have just stood where he was and starved. If he had just stood where he was, he could not have traveled with the wagons and so suddenly be taking part in the battle. If something is changed by balefire, events and interactions do change, people just have no memory of it.

 

Perhaps i misunderstood your post, but i don't think so.

 

 

The order of events (as they relate to Mat):

1:Mat arrives at Caemlyn.

2:Mat gets killed by Rahvin's lightning.

3:Rand balefires Rahvin.

 

Mat didn't have any actions between 2 and 3 because his mind wasn't there during that time.  Time doesn't rewind from balefire, just the actions get undone.

 

He probably remembers dying and being in T'A'R as a hero in between 2 and 3.  Then again, maybe not since heroes don't remember anything while they're out.

[Sharaman]

Mat had confused memories of the Hound attack in Rhuedean where the Dogs of the Dark were balefired by Rand. He had been slobbered on and remembered the mutt had chewed a hole in the door. Moiraine had to heal him (after requesting he remove the medallion with a look of surprise when he complained it was cold) and he sounded confused when he looked at the door, which was suddenly in better shape. But he didn't die

The Caemlyn attack, he died.

 

[thewalrus777]

I think it's a case that the Dark One can only resurrect souls he's "grabbed," and he can only grab souls at the moment of their deaths. A moment after their death, they are out of his reach and free to continue with the natural method of reincarnation later in time in a new thread.

 

The problem of Balefire is that the thread burns backwards, and the people dies earlier in time. So the Dark One automatically misses his opportunity to grab (and thus resurrect) since the soul is already dead'n'gone before he can do the scooping.

 

If people Balefired were permanently gone from the spinning of the Wheel, then the Wheel is in long term trouble. Sooner or later the number of souls would be whittled down towards zilch, especially each time the War of Power is run through.

 

Awesome post ;D

[SheaththeSword]

 

The order of events (as they relate to Mat):

1:Mat arrives at Caemlyn.

2:Mat gets killed by Rahvin's lightning.

3:Rand balefires Rahvin.

 

Mat didn't have any actions between 2 and 3 because his mind wasn't there during that time.  Time doesn't rewind from balefire, just the actions get undone.

 

He probably remembers dying and being in T'A'R as a hero in between 2 and 3.  Then again, maybe not since heroes don't remember anything while they're out.

 

Actually he never died. So he did not go to TaR. He lived life as he would normally have. Nothing got rewound. Things just happened differently from how people remember them.

 

This is the problem with thinking that after Balefire the pattern must 'rearrange' certain things. Things just happened differently so as to have no paradox created (the main one, in this case, being someone who died but the killer(Rahv) is already dead - cannot, therefore did not, happen).

Sure the threads must 'shift', as shown by the rippling effect after the palace is destroyed. But this should never be considered 'rearranging' as it implies it is happening in the world, going through time and achieving an end. It is simply a way of thinking, but that word stimulates the incorrect way.

The point is, Mat did have interaction between 'steps 2 and 3'. His mind, and body were there. He just doesn't remember

 

In my opinion (but just for the underlined bits).

[Shazzai]

 

The order of events (as they relate to Mat):

1:Mat arrives at Caemlyn.

2:Mat gets killed by Rahvin's lightning.

3:Rand balefires Rahvin.

 

Mat didn't have any actions between 2 and 3 because his mind wasn't there during that time.  Time doesn't rewind from balefire, just the actions get undone.

 

He probably remembers dying and being in T'A'R as a hero in between 2 and 3.  Then again, maybe not since heroes don't remember anything while they're out.

 

Actually he never died. So he did not go to TaR. He lived life as he would normally have. Nothing got rewound. Things just happened differently from how people remember them.

 

This is the problem with thinking that after Balefire the pattern must 'rearrange' certain things. Things just happened differently so as to have no paradox created (the main one, in this case, being someone who died but the killer(Rahv) is already dead - cannot, therefore did not, happen).

Sure the threads must 'shift', as shown by the rippling effect after the palace is destroyed. But this should never be considered 'rearranging' as it implies it is happening in the world, going through time and achieving an end. It is simply a way of thinking, but that word stimulates the incorrect way.

The point is, Mat did have interaction between 'steps 2 and 3'. His mind, and body were there. He just doesn't remember

 

In my opinion (but just for the underlined bits).

 

When balefire changes something in the past, you remember the past as it happened up til the point the balefire hit.

 

As a thought experiment, pretend you're Mat.  Immediately prior to the balefire hitting Rahvin, where are you?  What are you doing, what are you thinking about?  That's what you'll remember happening AFTER the balefire hits Rahvin.  The actions are gone, but the MEMORIES of the actions (and its results) are still there.

 

With the Darkhounds, Mat REMEMBERS them tearing through the door and drooling on him, despite it not happening.  With Rahvin this means that he (and Avi and Asmo and a ton of other Aiel) REMEMBER being dead.  I want to know what they remember from between the time they died and when the balefire hit.

[SheaththeSword]

When balefire changes something in the past, you remember the past as it happened up til the point the balefire hit.

 

As a thought experiment, pretend you're Mat.  Immediately prior to the balefire hitting Rahvin, where are you?  What are you doing, what are you thinking about?  That's what you'll remember happening AFTER the balefire hits Rahvin.  The actions are gone, but the MEMORIES of the actions (and its results) are still there.

 

With the Darkhounds, Mat REMEMBERS them tearing through the door and drooling on him, despite it not happening.  With Rahvin this means that he (and Avi and Asmo and a ton of other Aiel) REMEMBER being dead.  I want to know what they remember from between the time they died and when the balefire hit.

 

I agree with you on the memory part. I was only reffering to the fact that you said Mat had no interaction with reality from the point at which he 'wasn't killed', which isn't true. He interacted as he normally would have. Only nobody remembers that (on which part we are agreed).

[Diederichos]

How can someone remember being dead, or unconscious for that matter? I get knocked on the head, I pass out, person who knocked me out gets balefired. Effectively, I have no bump on the head, no damage, but I will not be able to remember what happened between the point where I passed out and the point where the passing out didn't occur because I wasn't there to witness it/live it. That's why Mat says soon as Rand tries to hug him 'it's like you thought we were dead' or something like that.

 

It's sorta like a dvd player, I watch a scene, and then I rewind the scene. It's as though the scene never played(tenuous, but roll with me) as far as the dvd is concerned because it will just restart from the point it got rewound to. but I still remember details because I actually saw the scene. Now, let's say someone else watched that scene and I was out of the room and then that person rewound the cd, well it's effectively as if that scene never played. Except, I won't have any recollection of what happened because I wasn't there to experience it.

 

When you're dead, you have no experiences(which is debatable, but this isn't a philosophical debate) to remember. Therefore even if whatever caused you to die is balefired, you still will not know what happened in the time you were dead because you had no experience of it to recall.

[SheaththeSword]

Do we actually get Mat or Aviendha's PoV on the experience? I was searching FoH but couldn't find one. The only thing i could find was that quote, "it's like you thought I was dead" (roughly)

that suggests Mat has no odd memories of the time when he was 'out' of reality, he think that he has been around the whole time. Which indicates he has memories of the actions he ACTUALLY did (as shifted by the pattern), rather than those which everyone remembers that he 'didn't do', or his absence from their group.

So Mat, presumably, has memories of what he did when everyone thinks he was dead.

[Sharaman]

Death by lightning is instantaneous. One moment they were scrapping, the next there were still scrapping, the interim period when they were dead didn't happen. Lucky the corpses weren't mutiliated post-death by hungry trollocs though!

Rand certainly hopes that Aviendha is unaware because he thinks she will feel she has toh if she knows he saved her life. (LoC)

 

[SheaththeSword]

Death by lightning is instantaneous. One moment they were scrapping, the next there were still scrapping, the interim period when they were dead didn't happen. Lucky the corpses weren't mutiliated post-death by hungry trollocs though!

Rand certainly hopes that Aviendha is unaware because he thinks she will feel she has toh if she knows he saved her life. (LoC)

 

There was no interim period, life carried on as 'normal'.

You seem to contradict yourself, you say the interim period never happened (which is when the corpses would have been there) then you also say it's lucky the trollocs didnt' maul them. If it didn't happen, when would the trollocs have the opportuntnity to do anything to the bodies?

[Nightstrike]

The history is partially rewritten. Trollocs would have eaten, but still no harm to those struck by lightning. Those struck by lightning would be where they were when they were struck. Trollocs would have had their bellies filled with meat.

[Sharaman]

Death by lightning is instantaneous. One moment they were scrapping, the next there were still scrapping, the interim period when they were dead didn't happen. Lucky the corpses weren't mutiliated post-death by hungry trollocs though!

Rand certainly hopes that Aviendha is unaware because he thinks she will feel she has toh if she knows he saved her life. (LoC)

 

There was no interim period, life carried on as 'normal'.

You seem to contradict yourself, you say the interim period never happened (which is when the corpses would have been there) then you also say it's lucky the trollocs didnt' maul them. If it didn't happen, when would the trollocs have the opportuntnity to do anything to the bodies?

 

That is precisely the kind of paradox balefire sets up. There was the period when Rand and Rahvin were fooling around when there were corpses lying around. Then once Rand BF-ed Rahvin, there were no corpses. But in that interim period, somebody could have done things to the corpses. 

 

@Nightstrike - yeah - that's one possible solution. It could be an interesting way to feed trollocs - line up say 20 Borderlanders, get one to kill all the others. The trollocs chow down and then Moridin BF-es the killer. The supply of meat is revived, and the Trolloc have eaten 20 chaps while only one has died. 

Maybe that is how the Blight sustains so many trollocs.

 

[Nightstrike]

:D

Yeah, and it explains how the lost matter is compensated for during the turnings of the Wheel. Maybe?

 

[Knobs Mahoney]

Pardon me for not having FoH handy, because I'm at work.

 

If memory serves me correctly, when Rand comes out of the palace after balefiring Rahvin he sees Aviendha and Mat and is overcome with joy and disbelief at seeing them alive. He rushes over and begins hugging both of them and they just look confused like, "Wtf is with Rand? Is he going crazy already?" This doesn't seem to indicate that either of them "remember being dead". Couple that with the absolute lack of internal monologue from either of them (Mat particularly always tends to talk about the things that bewilder him) in their PoVs since the incident and I'd say it is an open-and-shut case that the death just ceased to have happened, and so was not remembered. Did Rand even tell either of them what happened? I can't remember if he did or not.

 

Balefire "erases" parts of what a certain thread in the pattern has done proportional to the strength of the balefire. Mat remembers the darkhounds gnawing on the door because Rand's balefire only erased its thread back far enough to undo some of its attack on Mat. Similarly, Mat only remembers fighting Trollocs before he died to Rahvin's lightning and then remembers the events that happen after Rand balefire'd Rahvin. He doesn't "remember being dead in T'A'R" because it effectively never happen with the strength of the balefire that Rand threw at Rahvin.

[Nightstrike]

If memory serves me correctly, when Rand comes out of the palace after balefiring Rahvin he sees Aviendha and Mat and is overcome with joy and disbelief at seeing them alive. He rushes over and begins hugging both of them and they just look confused like, "Wtf is with Rand? Is he going crazy already?" This doesn't seem to indicate that either of them "remember being dead".

That's how I remember it as well. I don't think they remember being dead, either. I believe Asmo kind of suspected something, based on Rand's words/actions.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

TFoH, 55:

Mat feended him off. What's the matter with you? You'd think you thought we were dead. Not that we weren't, almost. Being a general has to be safer than this."

 

"You're alive." Rand laughed. ...

 

TFoH, 55:

Where did you go?" Aviendha demanded. Not angrily. If anything, she looked relieved. "One second you were there, the next you were gone."

 

 

[mb]

Someone from the 'simple question, simple answer' thread suggested I ask my question here.

Copied from my post.

 

The balefire that was done on Graendal's palace, was the strength like divided among the victims or did each victim receive the full strength?

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

It seems like it'd be full for everyone, but we've never seen one balefire "beam" hit multiple targets simultaneously, have we?

[thewalrus777]

Someone from the 'simple question, simple answer' thread suggested I ask my question here.

Copied from my post.

 

The balefire that was done on Graendal's palace, was the strength like divided among the victims or did each victim receive the full strength?

 

It seems like it'd be full for everyone, but we've never seen one balefire "beam" hit multiple targets simultaneously, have we?

 

I would think balefire is balefire. Whatever it hits, it hits with the same strength. It has to hit multiple things with the same strength, because if not then there is a major flaw in the physics.

[Sharaman]

What is the physics?

BF presumably works in four dimensions - space and time.

If BF is like a laser beam, the BF energy that hits a given object depends on exposed cross section.

But then if somebody is touched by a narrow beam you don't see a hole drilled, the guy disappears.

It can partly damage walls and such, leaving holes but not totally vaporising them.

Possibly somebody sitting at the rear-end of the castle may be hit by less BF energy.

Enough to vaporise her in three dimensions but maybe pushing less far back in time than somebody at the front end.

I doubt that this is even a RAFO. It may not have been worked out.

 

[singogreatest360]

The question is the "Crazy Claw" theory correct. Or is it the "Lazy Claw"

 

 

"Crazy Claw"

When balefire happens an awesome claw of the pattern grabs everyone and everything that wasn't balefired and places them in a pattern that makes sense, but in 100% mode. So if your killer was balefired you will be "placed" where you were before you were killed, but at the time of the balefire, not at the time of the killing.

 

"Lazy Claw"

When balefire happens an awesome claw of the pattern grabs the balefired persons and things out of the pattern at the "burn point" and presses play until time reaches the balefire time then you start remembering things again. If your killer's "burn point" is before you were killed then you live your life as you would have in the balefire timeline, not remembering any of the balefire timeline after the "balefire point". You remember up to the "burn point and awake at the "balefire point".

 

Honestly it seems like both have been seen in the series. Maybe male and female sexes play a role. When males (Rand) balefires you get "Crazy Claw". When females (Moghedien) balefires you get "Lazy Claw".

 

Vote time

A "Crazy Claw"

B "Lazy Claw"

C It's a mixture

D None of the above

E It's sex thing.

[mb]

but we've never seen one balefire "beam" hit multiple targets simultaneously, have we?

Coming to think of it, Moghedien's balefire in Ebou Dar hit multiple people.  (Crown of Swords Chapter 30, Moghedien's POV; Chapter 31, Nynaeve's POV)

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

Aye, it hit multiple people(maybe, since quite a few might have just drowned), but it didn't do so at the same time.  She used a thinner beam to cut the boat, not a massive beam to obliterate it.  So, though it was one beam that might have killed more than one person, it probably didn't impact more than one person at the same instant.

[BladeDancer]

Maybe the real reason Balefire was 'forbidden' was that RJ realised it was incredibly difficult to write about it's usage because the consequences are confusing to understand and can cause endless potential paradoxes. If all the Channellers used Balefire as a common weapon then it would have been incredibly complicated for RJ to work out how the effects had undone previous events.  Does someone who gets Balefired gets restored if their killer then gets Balefired? If so then the Pattern of the Author's brain quickly begins to unravel...

 

Consider the Last Battle which will have Channellers fighting each other. Say you have Egwene and Nynaeve fighting Mesaana and Cyndane and they are all using Balefire. Egwene Balefires Mesaana. 2 minutes later Cyndane Balefires Egwene - does Mesaana comes back? Assume she does. 4 minutes later Nyneave Balefires Cyndane - does Egwene then also comes back? Is Mesaana  then no longer back as she was only restored by Cyndane's actions which were just undone?

 

See how confusing it gets. The whole thing just creates headaches if everyone uses it. Just have it that Balefire is forbidden except when Rand is fighting Forsaken. Otherwise Dumai Wells would have been a series of Asha'man kills Shaido Maiden before being Balefired by an Elza Sedai who is then Balefired by a Shaido Wise One who is then Balefired by Alanna Sedai who is then Balefired by Galina Sedai who is then Balefired by Rand who broke free because one of the Aes Sedai shielding him was Balefired by an Asha'man!

 

Balefire is confusing to write about. So RJ wisely made it a plot-device that everyone decided to stop using it and then forgot how to use it! Apart from Moraine!  :o