Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[firstfishman]

Unless Rand can wield the TP through Callandor, together with non-forsaken women in a circle, it will not be what seals the prison or defeats the Dark One...

 

Elayne is the key... At first I thought that the word "key" was a hint and that she would craft a new female choden kal, but after Rand destroyed the male one, it no longer seems likely...

 

I stand firm in my earlier post..

[Lambada]

Where are you getting the idea that they couldn't sense the TP?

 

Anyone to whom the DO has given permission to access TP can sense it.  In themselves and in any others so gifted if linked.

 

What they cannot sense is the weave being spun with TP.  A totally different thing.

 

Think of TP as a kind of machine tool.  Think of the weave as the object being made with that tool.

The TP can not "be detected except by who wielded it." [ACOS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 356] This is worded vaguely, but RJ has clarified it: "No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course." [RJ, Amer. Online chat, 27-6-96]

From WoTFAQ 1.3.2

In addition as has been mentioned, you have The Watcher following Greandal / Sammael whilst holding the TP.

Thus they can only sense the TP from within themselves.

[Calloravion]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

Throughout the books the people have believed that the TP is the DO's power.  But what if the DO is not the master of the TP?  What if the TP is the master of him?  What if his prison is constructed with the TP, and because the Bore disrupted that prison, he is able to make use of it?  What if the TP is actually the pure power of the Creator, but acquires an aspect of evil after flowing through the DO, and thence to mortals?

 

LTT says "It IS Him!" Meaning the True Power actually IS the Dark One. Not a power. Not something ethereal.

 

The TP might be flowing through the DO and acquiring an evil from him that it didn't originally have.  Like looking at a light through a colored filter.  LTT may be seeing the "color" of the DO on the TP, thus his reaction.

 

Nowhere in the books does it say that the DO and the TP are the same thing.  They are located together.  The DO gives mortals access to the TP.  But that doesn't mean that the DO *is* the TP.

 

Edit: grammar fix

[richnewton82]

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[firstfishman]

Yet in any 2 person link, ( and possibly some other larger ones ) she was required to take a backseat, to surrender control of the link to the man.

 

Wrong. Either person can direct the flows. We see Rand do it at the cleansing. We see female Aes Sedai do it with their Ashaman warders.

 

Throughout the books the people have believed that the TP is the DO's power.  But what if the DO is not the master of the TP?  What if the TP is the master of him?  What if his prison is constructed with the TP, and because the Bore disrupted that prison, he is able to make use of it?  What if the TP is actually the pure power of the Creator, but acquires an aspect of evil after flowing through the DO, and thence to mortals?

 

LTT says "It IS Him!" Meaning the True Power actually IS the Dark One. Not a power. Not something ethereal.

 

The TP might be flowing through the DO and acquiring an evil from him that it didn't originally have.  Like looking at a light through a colored filter.  LTT may be seeing the "color" of the DO on the TP, thus his reaction.

 

Nowhere in the books does it say that the DO and the TP are the same thing.  They are located together.  The DO gives mortals access to the TP.  But that doesn't mean that the DO *is* the TP.

 

Edit: grammar fix

 

Adide from the fact that LTT says "Oh, Light, Lew Therin suddeny screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, Death and betrayal. It is HIM!"  

 

It is HIM!

 

What else could that mean?

 

Edit* this is taken, word for word, from page 354 of The Gathering Storm. Chapter 22, The Last that Could Be Done

[Lambada]

Could it be possible that the DO / TP distinction is similar to the one between the True Source and the OP?

The True Source is the primary thing(not divided into two). The One Power is drawn from the True Source and is drawn in two different ways (saidin / saidar) which drive the Wheel of Time. The terms True Source / One Power are often used interchangeably though they are not the same - as the TS is never referred to as being divided into two.

 

Similarly could you say that the Dark one is akin to the True Source and from him stems the True Power? In this way they are often refereed to as the same, while they are not exactly the same - the TP is not conscious unlike the DO.

 

Just thought i'd throw that out there in addition to my existing theory on TP vs OP.

[richnewton82]

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[Calloravion]

Nowhere in the books does it say that the DO and the TP are the same thing.

 

But yet that is exactly what the quote I gave says.

 

But that doesn't mean that the DO *is* the TP.

 

That is what Lews Therin says - word for word.

 

 

LTT calls it "HIM".  Figuratively.  He also calls it "death and betrayal".  Figuratively.  The TP is not necessarily the DO.

 

The Creator is the source of the TP.

He created the DO's prison out of TP.

The DO's prison was damaged.

The DO tapped the TP from his prison.

And gives it to his followers.

And now it has his evil on it.

 

This is the possibility I'm suggesting.  It is admittedly an out-there theory, but nothing in the books contradicts it.  If mortals have only seen TP coming from the DO and never from the Creator, then they would believe it was the DO's own power.  But believing it to be so does not make it so.

 

This theory may explain how the prison is to be restored, since from LTT's experience, you can't do it with the OP or you risk the taint.

[Calloravion]

Could it be that Rand burned himself out when he destroyed the CK? All we have in the book is "the power winked out, the tempest ended." He had just destroyed the largest sa'angreal while accessing it. Sounds like a great way to either kill yourself or at least burn yourself out.

 

When cleansing the taint, the female sa'angreal and access key were both destroyed, but Nynaeve came out fine.  So it's unlikely Rand is burned out.

[Pandemonium]

There is no way that the unaided True Power is the same strength as saidin with the CK.  The quotes provided earlier show no evidence of that fact.  Several here have noticed that Rand was initially beating the crap out of Ishamael and then he began to struggle and Callandor began to go dark.  I, personally, believe that this may be an effect of Tel'aran'rhiod than anything else.  Rand had no skill in Tel'aran'rhiod so Ishamael had another large advantage he could seize on to turn the tide of battle.

 

If the True Power was really as strong as the Choedan Kal, then Ishamael would have already destroyed the pattern.  There would have been no need to wait for Rand.

 

 

[Pandemonium]

There are going to be several major effect from Rand's enlightenment on Dragonmount:

 

  1.  Rand merged with ALL of his past lives and their memories.  Doesn't this, by default, mean that Rand now knows how to fix the Dark One's prison.  The wheel of time is cyclical, which means Rand has already successfully fixed the Dark One's prison in a past life.  If he has all the memories of his past life, then this means he should now know what to do to win the Last Battle.

 

  2.  Rand was able to integrate with Lews Therin and take away the voices.  However, Rand is still very much vulnerable to his connection with Moridin.  Also, Rand still might have the 'halo of darkness' since he had channeled the True Power earlier.  Before Rand can go to the Last Battle, I think much of his next plotline will focus on making amends with his allies (and his lovers) and figuring out a way to sever his connection with the Dark One and Moridin.  Unfortunately, I don't think we will get to see all of this until the final book. 

 

 

 

[Dorkfiend]

I don't actually think Rand can access the True Power at will anymore, after what happened to him on Dragonmount. He had his little epiphany, which of course meant that he wasn't in his permanent-void state that Semi managed to put him into. Once he realised that one of those enticing powers was gone, he also realised that he had no real reason to use the CK, because at that point it was pretty much only there to ward off the TP. It was his Anger, Hate and Desperation that allowed him access to the TP, whether through Ishydin or otherwise, but now he isn't consumed by those emotions anymore he no longer can touch it.

 

You took the words right out of my speedily flippin' fingers.  Try this quote on for size:

 

Something snapped inside of himn.  He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing.  No emotion.  No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force.  It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view.  He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out.  It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power.  Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.  Something he'd never felt before.

 

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed.  That's impossible!  We can't use it!  Cast it away!  That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

 

The betrayal was Rand's.  He betrayed the Light by giving up his emotions, and his humanity.

 

And later:

 

That other force called to him, sang to him, tempted him.  So much power, so much divine wonder.  But it terrified him.  He didn't dare touch it, not again.

 

And so he carried the key.  He was not certain which of the two sources of energy was more dangerous, but as long as both called to him, he was able to resist both.  Like two people, both yelling for his attention, they drowned one another out.  For the moment.

 

And so when Rand destroys the CK, I think it's a fair assumption that he does so because he no longer needs it.  The TP no longer cries for his bunghole.  The temptation is gone.  He has returned to the light in embracing his humanity, and his reasons to fight for the Light.

 

[Dorkfiend]

Arf.  The post, she doubles.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The board it do be flaky.  The traffic it do be hi.

[Durinax]

the rand and tam meeting was epic quality. it blew my mind how it ended, and tam is just awesome

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

LTT calls it "HIM".  Figuratively.  He also calls it "death and betrayal".  Figuratively.  The TP is not necessarily the DO.

 

It sure doesn't sound figurative. Furthermore, the DO IS death and betrayal. When he was sealed there was no betrayal. There was no crime. When he's released those things enter the world. Not figurative. LTT meant it in the literal sense.

 

There was still crime.  There was still jealousy, envy, greed, a thirst for power et al.  All the human failings were still there, and they will still be there after the DO is resealed.

[richnewton82]

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[BURN]

The Fisher King is the key. It is alluded to earlier in the series. Someone upthread mentioned Rand as an avatar. Notice how the darker Rand got, the worse the world got. The food intended for Arad Doman all spoiled, which was following the time he forsook the light and embraced the true power. He walked through the gateway and abadoned Arad Doman. On Dragonmount, he turned back to the light. We know it is the DO's plan to break the wheel. Rand was about to do that with the CK before he turned back to the light. That's why the DO needs Rand, he can't be completely free unless its done for him. Rand is the fulcrum, as is noted in one of the prior books (LoC) the Fisher King is mentioned explicitly. I think its probably fair to say that the plan all along from the DO's standpoint was to have Rand break the wheel. Now that Rand has turned back to the light, as mentioned upthread, things should start growing again. The plan is and has always been to have the Fisher King (Rand) change sides. I think Moridin is the N'aeblis because he is the only one that truly understands the DO's aim. Its a board game, only the DO has never managed to capture the Fisher King. I think its also clear that Galad will heal or save Rand in some way. Or die to save him. He's a more perfect sacrifice in many ways, and he does have Rand's blood. Galahad healed the Fisher King in Arthurian legend. Thoughts?

 

edited for typos

[Bob T Dwarf]

maybe we aren't reading the same series. prior to the Bore there was virtually no crime whatsoever. btw thirst for power isn't a crime. until you do something criminal.

 

Before the Bore, Semirhage was still a sadist.  Balthamel was still a rapacious lech.  Aginor was still an unprincipled scientist. etc., etc.

[Durinax]

before the breaking negative aspects where hidden under the surface, waiting till they could safely emerge

[Chapmann]

before the breaking negative aspects where hidden under the surface, waiting till they could safely emerge

 

Eh, I wouldn't say that. You also have to consider that "we" are living in the First Age and as far as I know from reading the series the Dark One is not supposed to be free in our Age. But we still nuked each other to hell (Mosk and Merk) and the Ogier had to come to restore the Earth and we discovered channeling and thus the Second Age, Age of Legends, started. Or am I wrong?

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Nope.  Semi had always been a sadist.  She only got caught after the Bore.  She chose the DO as preferable to being bound from ever torturing or killing anyone again by a Binder or Oath Rod.

[richnewton82]

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