Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Rand was still blundering his way thru trying to learn to channel when he took Callandor. I doubt he was at his full strength, and have often thought he still is not, as we are less than three years from eotw in Randland time. I doubt Rand was born with his ability fully manifested at full strength, so the most powerful of the Forsaken armed with advantages in strength and knowledge could best him even with sa'angreal. At that point, he just does things by instinct to save his own life, not really so much to attack.

[Lownin]

Well, im assuming that the dark need rand for the dark one to escape 100%, thats probably why they havn't killed him, they did the same thing in the AOL with lews therin, they kept trying to turn him instead of just killing him.

 

Look at him as the patterns Avatar in a way.  The source is a handy tool for keeping him alive, but it isn't what makes him important.  Like I said before this book shows off how his perception has the ability to mold reality itself.  Well it was there before too, this last book just made it obvious.  

[karehiro]

Rand was still blundering his way thru trying to learn to channel when he took Callandor. I doubt he was at his full strength, and have often thought he still is not, as we are less than three years from eotw in Randland time. I doubt Rand was born with his ability fully manifested at full strength, so the most powerful of the Forsaken armed with advantages in strength and knowledge could best him even with sa'angreal. At that point, he just does things by instinct to save his own life, not really so much to attack.

 

That would be the case if Ishmael wasn't being run ragged like a dog beforehand and if he was actually doing skill-based attacks.

 

But that's not the case since Ishmael just called upon the Shadow/drew more of the True Power to nearly match Rand with Callandor.  No channeler unaided has that ability with the One Power.

 

So my point still stands.  The true power can grow exponentially and has shown itself superior to the One Power.

[OsaroLJ]

It's becoming very clear that the Dark One cannot be free with the Dragon dead. The Dragon is the only one that can free the Dark One. Why? I dont know yet.

[karehiro]

It's becoming very clear that the Dark One cannot be free with the Dragon dead. The Dragon is the only one that can free the Dark One. Why? I dont know yet.

 

True, but what's the point of granting Rand access to the True Power?

 

Wouldn't it serve the Dark One's purpose better for Rand to be captive of Semirhage with the Domination Band?  With that Band, presumably they could make Rand do whatever they want, including finding and breaking the seals holding the Dark One back (or at least holding him still to forcibly turn him to the Shadow with the 13 Dreadlords/Fades)

[Bob T Dwarf]

What we see is Rand's perception from the middle of a drug induced high.  It's a new drug.  He feels invincible.  He felt the same way the first few times he used Callandor.

 

Perception is not reality.  The two kinds of Power are equivalent.  Neither is more powerful than the other.

[coteaz]

I have a question, does it say specifically that Ishamael was matching rand with callandor? The darkness enveloping the light could have just been excessive use of the TP, or it could mean he just drew to his maximum potential and the side effect of that was the darkness, i mean rand used it once and he already had a small dark aura around himself, maybe this is the same thing?

[OsaroLJ]

Why Rand could channel the TP probably rests in the mind of Moridin. Their connection has become so strange, it wouldn't surprise me if the DO thought it was Moridin channeling.

 

But, there is something unique about the Dragon Soul with regards to the Last Battle. There is something only he can do. I don't think the DO wins if Rand dies before TG. In fact, I think he's "death" is a prerequiste for a Light Win. I can't explain it yet, but it sure looks like Robert Jordan held a TON of secrets from us before he passed. What amazing writing.

[OsaroLJ]

What we see is Rand's perception from the middle of a drug induced high.  It's a new drug.  He feels invincible.  He felt the same way the first few times he used Callandor.

 

Perception is not reality.  The two kinds of Power are equivalent.  Neither is more powerful than the other.

 

I disagree. Their perception is the only reality that we have. Unless the Creator speaks on this issue, Rand's perspective HAS to be reality.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Uneducated Rand leaps for Callandor. Ishy runs. Uneducated Rand chases. Ishy is cornered and in a last ditch attempt draws as deeply as he can. He fights and loses. Uneducated Rand with Callandor was stronger.

 

Fast forward 2 years to TGS, if this confrontation were to happen again with Rand having gained strength and skill, he would still win and it would be no contest.

 

If memory serves me, Ishy had something similar to the black cord, only in aura/cloud form, but whatever that connection is does not really sway the argument either way.

 

I don't think this example proves the TP can grow exponentially unaided. It is no different than someone immensely strong in the one power drawing as deeply as they can to nearly match someone untrained and with unfulfilled potential using a sa'angreal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

True, but what's the point of granting Rand access to the True Power?

 

Wouldn't it serve the Dark One's purpose better for Rand to be captive of Semirhage with the Domination Band?  With that Band, presumably they could make Rand do whatever they want, including finding and breaking the seals holding the Dark One back (or at least holding him still to forcibly turn him to the Shadow with the 13 Dreadlords/Fades)

 

Sure it would serve the DO's purpose to have Rand captive.  But there was a lot more going on in that scene.

 

The DO sent Shaidar Haran to offer Semirhage one last chance to do what she had been ordered to do - capture Rand and return him to Shayol Ghul.

 

She did half the job.  She captured him and then delayed to have some personal playtime.  In the process of that, due to the link with Moridin, she was causing Moridin as much pain as she was causing Rand.

 

She flat blew it.  You don't blow last chances with the DO and survive.

 

There will be more opportunities to capture Rand, but there can be NO more opportunities for anyone to thumb their nose at the DO's direct orders.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What we see is Rand's perception from the middle of a drug induced high.  It's a new drug.  He feels invincible.  He felt the same way the first few times he used Callandor.

 

Perception is not reality.  The two kinds of Power are equivalent.  Neither is more powerful than the other.

 

I disagree. Their perception is the only reality that we have. Unless the Creator speaks on this issue, Rand's perspective HAS to be reality.

 

No Rand's perception is just Rand's perception just like it was with Callandor.  He thought he could raise the dead.  He couldn't.

 

New drug.  New high.  He thinks he can do anything.  He can't.

[Lownin]

What we see is Rand's perception from the middle of a drug induced high.  It's a new drug.  He feels invincible.  He felt the same way the first few times he used Callandor.

 

Perception is not reality.  The two kinds of Power are equivalent.  Neither is more powerful than the other.

 

I disagree. Their perception is the only reality that we have. Unless the Creator speaks on this issue, Rand's perspective HAS to be reality.

 

No Rand's perception is just Rand's perception just like it was with Callandor.  He thought he could raise the dead.  He couldn't.

 

New drug.  New high.  He thinks he can do anything.  He can't.

 

Not using the one or true power he can't.  He's on his way to realizing exactly what he is though, He could lose the ability to channel completely and still be able to win the last battle.  He isn't even going to need to be "alive" to do it.

[Wolf505]

I just finished the book, and after reading this thread, something occured to me.  What if Rand destroying the Choedan Kal was a foreshadowing of the way to win the last battle.  For whatever reason, he found he could draw on the True Power.  Whether the Dark One allowed it or not is not something we know.  The Forsaken all assume that he is the only one that decides who can and cannot draw on the TP, but what if they're wrong?  The Dark One IS the father of lies, what if he's lying and he isn't really the source of that power at all and he's just been manipulating the Forsaken this whole time? 

 

In any case, my original point is, it was said before that the reason Saidin was tainted was because Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions used it to touch the Dark One's prison.  What if Rand drew on the True Power like he did the Choaden Kal and then turned that power against itself in the same way, thus using the Dark One's own power to destroy him/seal the prison again?

[sheikh chilli]

Rand was still blundering his way thru trying to learn to channel when he took Callandor. I doubt he was at his full strength, and have often thought he still is not, as we are less than three years from eotw in Randland time. I doubt Rand was born with his ability fully manifested at full strength, so the most powerful of the Forsaken armed with advantages in strength and knowledge could best him even with sa'angreal. At that point, he just does things by instinct to save his own life, not really so much to attack.

 

That would be the case if Ishmael wasn't being run ragged like a dog beforehand and if he was actually doing skill-based attacks.

 

But that's not the case since Ishmael just called upon the Shadow/drew more of the True Power to nearly match Rand with Callandor.  No channeler unaided has that ability with the One Power.

 

So my point still stands.  The true power can grow exponentially and has shown itself superior to the One Power.ee

 

 

 

go back to book 7. when moridin watches those shaido wise ones. he thinks they cannot match him if he were to attack them since they cannot form a circle.

 

the true power is just like the one power. only it is the essence of the dark one. more addivitve, unstable and destructive.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Alright...The One power and True power debate will go on until the next 2 books come out...

 

Moving to a different topic...What abt the situation btw Rand and Seanchen/Borderlanders...We all assumed tht one of the situations will get resolved but neither is totally resolved...I doubt Mat will play a part in the truce with the Seanchen..he already has enough on his plate trying to free Moirane.Perrin might play a role in dealing with the Borderlanders.The Borderlanders wanted to meet rand for so long and when he finally decides to meet them they take him to a place where he was bound to feel uneasy.It just doesnt make sense...EIther the Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are manipulating them or maybe Demandred has a role to play...Any thought?

[singogreatest360]

Alright...The One power and True power debate will go on until the next 2 books come out...

 

Moving to a different topic...What abt the situation btw Rand and Seanchen/Borderlanders...We all assumed tht one of the situations will get resolved but neither is totally resolved...I doubt Mat will play a part in the truce with the Seanchen..he already has enough on his plate trying to free Moirane.Perrin might play a role in dealing with the Borderlanders.The Borderlanders wanted to meet rand for so long and when he finally decides to meet them they take him to a place where he was bound to feel uneasy.It just doesnt make sense...EIther the Aes Sedai with the Borderlanders are manipulating them or maybe Demandred has a role to play...Any thought?

 

About the TP i think Rand can use it because of the Link. Remember not only did the two balefires touch but Moridin's balefire was TP (Rand didn't feel him holding/ channeling it)

 

Im thinking both AS and Demandred. The Borderlanders are really close to my "Who NEEDS to Die" list

[Sasie]

Anyone got any reasonable explanation for the Aes Sedai and wise one's behavior in this book when it comes to Rand? Rand is outright insane and out of control at times especially after Semirhage but it seems to me they just focus on some of the problems while fully ignoring certain things about Rand. They known from the beginning of the book for example that Rand knows things from the Age of Legends and yet beyond places where he talks about it they don't even seem to acknowledge that at all. He never try to hide that he knowns these things yet none of them seem curious to dig deeper or consider what it might mean.

 

Take Cadsuane for example. One thing that confused me was that in earlier chapters when Semirhage was being interrogated and Semirhage age came up she seems to think herself a equal or believe she might even be older then the forsaken if they ignore the years sealed up. However later it seems she is just about 300 years? As I recall it from earlier things 300-400 years was not considered to be that remarkable in the age of Legends. Even if she has lived for equal amount of years how come none of them even seem to consider that the Forsaken and Rand has knowledge not just about the one power but also about the patterns and everything else that was known at that time? He even told her he remember the consequences and what happened when Balefire was used to destroy cities, things she only read about. Yet she still seems to believe she knows more about it then Rand.

 

Cadsuane seems to have a superiority complex to me. It's like she refuse to acknowledge that anyone could be better or know more then her at anything ever even though she should known by then that while Rand might be young *now* he has the majority of the memories from a life where he certainly wasn't young or inexperienced. Do she think that they are just there inside his head but somehow he is too young now to understand them?

 

It's like all of them either believes their ignorance doesn't matter or that none of it was worth knowing. When it came to information at least about things other then the source they didn't have to ask Semirhage they could just asked Rand and seen how he reacted. Yet apparently none of them want to find out what happened in the War of the Shadow. Heck, just some information about Semirhage's life could have helped when they held her. I'm personally rather curious to see if they will insist of continuing this behavior in the next book.

[Dert]

 

Cadsuane seems to have a superiority complex to me.

 

Well that the whole problem with Aes Sedai, wise ones, sea folks, even the womens circle in Edmonds field. However I don't think Rands been skillful enough in manipulating them up untill now. 

 

Also comming from Cadsuane point of view, for the majority of her life, she probably has know best or at least more than the people she has dealt with.  Thats going to be a hard mindset to change after 300 years.

[karehiro]

Uneducated Rand leaps for Callandor. Ishy runs. Uneducated Rand chases. Ishy is cornered and in a last ditch attempt draws as deeply as he can. He fights and loses. Uneducated Rand with Callandor was stronger.

 

Fast forward 2 years to TGS, if this confrontation were to happen again with Rand having gained strength and skill, he would still win and it would be no contest.

 

If memory serves me, Ishy had something similar to the black cord, only in aura/cloud form, but whatever that connection is does not really sway the argument either way.

 

I don't think this example proves the TP can grow exponentially unaided. It is no different than someone immensely strong in the one power drawing as deeply as they can to nearly match someone untrained and with unfulfilled potential using a sa'angreal.

 

That's pretty much the point.  No one using the One Power could do what Ishamael did, unaided.  He nearly matched him with the True Power when previously he fled knowing that he didn't stand a chance.  And the fact that he entreated the Shadow to aid him, then he got much stronger shows that he was nowhere near that level before.  Ishamael got more confident once he was granted that much power, meaning that he was far stronger than before.

 

The "uneducated" part has no bearing on the argument.  It has only to do with the strength and amount of power.

 

 

True, but what's the point of granting Rand access to the True Power?

 

Wouldn't it serve the Dark One's purpose better for Rand to be captive of Semirhage with the Domination Band?  With that Band, presumably they could make Rand do whatever they want, including finding and breaking the seals holding the Dark One back (or at least holding him still to forcibly turn him to the Shadow with the 13 Dreadlords/Fades)

 

Sure it would serve the DO's purpose to have Rand captive.  But there was a lot more going on in that scene.

 

The DO sent Shaidar Haran to offer Semirhage one last chance to do what she had been ordered to do - capture Rand and return him to Shayol Ghul.

 

She did half the job.  She captured him and then delayed to have some personal playtime.  In the process of that, due to the link with Moridin, she was causing Moridin as much pain as she was causing Rand.

 

She flat blew it.  You don't blow last chances with the DO and survive.

 

There will be more opportunities to capture Rand, but there can be NO more opportunities for anyone to thumb their nose at the DO's direct orders.

 

Why is it the case that there would be more chances to capture the Dragon Reborn especially when there's so few of the Chosen left, and that Rand has killed so many of their number?  It really doesn't make much sense because it's giving more importance to teaching Semirhage a lesson or taking a chance at turning Rand to the dark side, when presumably it would make more sense to capture him and then force him to the dark side.

 

They even left the Choedan Kal at the place for Rand to find when they could have easily taken it.

 

Rand was still blundering his way thru trying to learn to channel when he took Callandor. I doubt he was at his full strength, and have often thought he still is not, as we are less than three years from eotw in Randland time. I doubt Rand was born with his ability fully manifested at full strength, so the most powerful of the Forsaken armed with advantages in strength and knowledge could best him even with sa'angreal. At that point, he just does things by instinct to save his own life, not really so much to attack.

 

That would be the case if Ishmael wasn't being run ragged like a dog beforehand and if he was actually doing skill-based attacks.

 

But that's not the case since Ishmael just called upon the Shadow/drew more of the True Power to nearly match Rand with Callandor.  No channeler unaided has that ability with the One Power.

 

So my point still stands.  The true power can grow exponentially and has shown itself superior to the One Power.ee

 

 

 

go back to book 7. when moridin watches those shaido wise ones. he thinks they cannot match him if he were to attack them since they cannot form a circle.

 

the true power is just like the one power. only it is the essence of the dark one. more addivitve, unstable and destructive.

 

That's already been brought up and addressed.

 

It's a bit silly to bring up an example in a previous book where there's already question as to the circumstances, all the while ignoring other examples (such as Ishamael nearly matching Rand with Callandor in the Stone of Tear) and this very book which disproves your theory.

 

These are the facts of the situation:

 

-Ishamael was nowhere near Rand in power when he had Callandor, yet he significantly increased his strength by calling on the Dark One to aid him/drawed more True Power to nearly match Rand

-Moridin worried about the Wise Ones being able to form a true circle when he was observing Sammael and Graendal if he were to attack them

-Rand directly compared the amount of power as well as the ecstacy of the True Power as the same as when he held the Choedan Kal

 

^Those are the facts of the situation.  Saying that he was conflating the ecstacy to the amount is unfounded speculation.  Saying that it was only talking about the ecstacy is a lack of reading comprehension.

 

The issue really is what are the limits of the True Power, and explaining that could reconcile the above examples.

[Natural Born Killer]

I never really belived the whole "they will merge" theories. But this book changed my mind. Rand's whole black aura thing, drawing the TP, Moridin and Rand's chat.

 

They'll merge. And turn to the light becouse it seems Rand got his "I'm a laughing boy again"-moment that seems to get him on the right path towards the light.

 

The most interesting part would be if they merge and end up on the DO side.

[BrainFireBob]

On balefire, because this bothers the heck out of me:

 

Balefire does not destroy a soul. Balefire makes someone die before they are dead, true, but does not destroy a soul. One of Jordan's- I believe blogs, but possibly interviews- mentions that the DO can reincarnate someone if the amount of balefire used is very, very small. This means that balefire doesn't obliterate the soul, but instead acts as an attack on reality itself.

 

So when Rand balefired the palace, he wasn't obliterating thosse souls- or if he did, Sanderson didn't understand that about balefire, since it would directly contradict Jordan's own statement on the matter.

[Ashaman Drasil]

rand fulfilled the prophecy about him walking as a blind man and in beggar clothes what about other prophecy were any fulfilled  

[deepak_dragonreborn]

The whole Rand laughing thing has made ppl believe tht Rand will be his jolly oldvself again..i believe tht he will stilll be the same hard person (maybe a tad less) but he wont be so dark anymore...He finally understands what he fights for and instead of feeling it as a burden he will embrace his responsibility..Tht doesnt mean he wont be any less arrogant or he wont make hard decisions.Hopefully he can still kill women who need killing after this.I think in the next book Rands true change in character will be through Min.her PoV,describing the change in the bond will make us finally realize how much he has changed...Funny how his laughing again had nothing to do with Elayne being pregnant or Moiraine being alive.

 

BTW i want a thread dedicated to LTT...I will really miss him  :'(  :'(

I was really looking forward to his reaction on seeing Demandred..plus his comments are hilarious sometimes  :D

[deepak_dragonreborn]

A Verin thread would also be nice  ;D