Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[taliefer]

i dunno, it still seems questionable to me.

 

he says it was the greatest "experience" he had ever had. IE, from wielding that much power saidar made him feel more alive, and the more power you wield, the greater this effect.

 

"untill he tapped the unnamed power":the "experience" of tapping the true power. the true power made him feel more alive than the vast amounts of saidar did, due to its obscenely powerfull drug like qualities imo, NOT just from the total amount of it.

 

the main reason i am arguing this, besides it being how i read the passages, is that you have a point: IF the true power is indeed THAT supremely more powerfull, we have a major issue of why moridin hasnt just wiped the floor with everyone already.

[ohaitharguiz]

Also, since the CK is destroyed, will the TP take Rand over?

[Lownin]

Random question :  Are the effect of balefire cumlitive?  As in across all ages, we hear about whole cities getting wiped out with it, but just those 100ish lives in chpt 22 almost seemed to rend reality.  

 

Also, I don't think the last battle against the dark one is going to be fought with the one power or the true power(or should be to lock him up again anyways).  We started to see in this book just how Rands perceptions are warping reality around him.  With his (long overdue)  realization that the PAIN of life is meaningless (as opposed to hope and love), I'm expecting that new perception to really START his fight against the Dark one.

[Majsju]

I hope Rand keeps cadsuane exiled.

 

I agree. She was deservedly banished. When you are given a duty of that importance (protecting the collar) and fail at it...

 

Simply put, Rand was too lenient with Cadsuane. In a time of war a court martial would have ordered her executed for gross dereliction of duty.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

karehiro, I think you may have misinterpreted the passages a bit. It has been said prior to now that the True Power is as addictive as it is destructive, and that is why most of the Chosen fear it and use it only at great need. Rand was saying he had not felt anything like that except when he was using the Choedan Kal, as alive and basically orgasmic. Not that he was using as much, in terms of pure strength or force or whatever the correct term would be. It is more reasonable to presume that while holding the True Power, he felt as strong as he had with the Choedan Kal, felt as if he could conquer the world or whatever, but in reality he was no stronger than he would be if he was holding comparably as much of saidin. That feeling is most likely part of the danger in using it as well, because it causes the feeling of invincibility, as is previously stated in one of the other books.

[cap10kirk]

I have a crazy hunch(i can't call it a theory), that Avienda is Ilyena reborn. She is going to find out in Rhudian. I did say crazy hunch ;)

[Livia]

So what we need to know is this: What gives Rand the power to defeat the Dark One? LTT was terrified of the True Power. Has the Dragon ever wielded the True Power before?

Why does the DO want Rand captured rather than defeated? Does only Rand have the power to destroy the pattern? Or is that the DO's true aim?

If the TP is what allows the DO to bring his Chosen back from the dead, then maybe that's what Rand needs to defeat death and live again.

We know Rand hates being boxed in. Death is the ultimate box.

[karehiro]

 

 

It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

 

While I am not convinced that TP is so ¨berpowerful in terms of raw strength, I will pretend I do to come up with one possibility here. Since access to TP is granted directly by the DO, it should be possible for him to also control how much of TP someone is allowed to use. If Ishy can not hold his own against some 3rd Agers, untrained children in the eyes of not only the forsaken, but also in the eyes of the DO, maybe Ishy deserves what he gets.

 

Rand on the other hand...It seemed very much like a deliberate atempt to lure him to the dark side. Grant him access to as much TP as he can possibly handle, show him the power that can be his, if he just takes a different path.

 

ompare it to wine, if you will (hehe, I just ad to do this ;D). If you want to convince someone who has never tased wine that this is the best beverage in the world, you chose the most awesome wine you can find.

A wino on the other hand, as long as the colour is roughly right, and there is alcohol in it, he is happy as they come.

 

That does make sense, and in fact it meshes nicely with the scene in The Dragon Reborn when Ishmael was facing Rand with Callandor and was losing, but then gained alot of power when he entreated the Shadow to aid him (from what I remember, the lights dimmed when that happened, much the same as what happens now when Rand enters a room).

 

Though it's odd that the Dark One would set a limit on the amount of power he grants.  From what we know, it's only who he chooses to give it out to rather than how much he gives which is the main issue.  Which is the reason why I'm looking forward to seeing this explained.

 

i dunno, it still seems questionable to me.

 

he says it was the greatest "experience" he had ever had. IE, from wielding that much power saidar made him feel more alive, and the more power you wield, the greater this effect.

 

"untill he tapped the unnamed power":the "experience" of tapping the true power. the true power made him feel more alive than the vast amounts of saidar did, due to its obscenely powerfull drug like qualities imo, NOT just from the total amount of it.

 

I understand that part, however it clearly references the amount of power/strength aspect here:

 

So much power, so much divine wonder.

 

And this was after it was comparing it to the Choedan Kal.  This has nothing to do with the addictive aspect; it clearly references the amount of power as comparable to the Choedan Kal.

 

the main reason i am arguing this, besides it being how i read the passages, is that you have a point: IF the true power is indeed THAT supremely more powerfull, we have a major issue of why moridin hasnt just wiped the floor with everyone already.

 

That's pretty much the reason why I brought it up, to bring forward that discussion.  Rand could destroy all the Dark One's forces and destroy the Seanchan by himself when he had the Choedan Kal.  Why didn't he just wipe the floor with them?

 

Moridin clearly has a certain M.O to doing things.  The only question is what.

 

karehiro, I think you may have misinterpreted the passages a bit. It has been said prior to now that the True Power is as addictive as it is destructive, and that is why most of the Chosen fear it and use it only at great need. Rand was saying he had not felt anything like that except when he was using the Choedan Kal, as alive and basically orgasmic. Not that he was using as much, in terms of pure strength or force or whatever the correct term would be. It is more reasonable to presume that while holding the True Power, he felt as strong as he had with the Choedan Kal, felt as if he could conquer the world or whatever, but in reality he was no stronger than he would be if he was holding comparably as much of saidin. That feeling is most likely part of the danger in using it as well, because it causes the feeling of invincibility, as is previously stated in one of the other books.

 

I'm doing a literal reading of the text which clearly references not only the addictive aspect which you are arguing for, but also the strength aspect:

 

Energy and life surged through him' date=' a torrent of power like [i']saidin[/i], only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent.  It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before.  It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined.  It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

 

The addictive aspect is clearly delineated in the underlined.  The power aspect is clearly delineated in the bolded.

 

So much power' date='[/b'] so much divine wonder.

 

Again, the power aspect is clearly delineated in the bolded, the addictive aspect in the underlined.

 

Frankly, it's a bit silly telling me that I'm misreading the text when it clearly notes not just the addictive aspect but the power aspect.  It's right there in the text.

 

[Majsju]

 

 

It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

 

While I am not convinced that TP is so ¨berpowerful in terms of raw strength, I will pretend I do to come up with one possibility here. Since access to TP is granted directly by the DO, it should be possible for him to also control how much of TP someone is allowed to use. If Ishy can not hold his own against some 3rd Agers, untrained children in the eyes of not only the forsaken, but also in the eyes of the DO, maybe Ishy deserves what he gets.

 

Rand on the other hand...It seemed very much like a deliberate atempt to lure him to the dark side. Grant him access to as much TP as he can possibly handle, show him the power that can be his, if he just takes a different path.

 

ompare it to wine, if you will (hehe, I just ad to do this ;D). If you want to convince someone who has never tased wine that this is the best beverage in the world, you chose the most awesome wine you can find.

A wino on the other hand, as long as the colour is roughly right, and there is alcohol in it, he is happy as they come.

 

That does make sense, and it fact it meshes nicely with the scene in The Dragon Reborn when Ishmael was facing Rand with Callandor and was losing, but then gained alot of power when he entreated the Shadow to aid him (from what I remember, the lights dimmed when that happened, much the same as what happens now when Rand enters a room).

 

Though it's odd that the Dark One would set a limit on the amount of power he grants.  From what we know, it's only who he chooses to give it out to rather than how much he gives which is the main issue.  Which is the reason why I'm looking forward to seeing this explained.

 

 

I had a theory about that some time ago. Though that was based on the number of Chosen allowed access to TP. Out of thousands of Chosen, less than 30 were granted access. Why be so restricitve, since it obviously gives anyone wielding it an edge, even without it being überpowerful? Sure, the DO does not trust any of the Chosen, except for possibly Ishydin, but he does have full control. And if he could win the war much quicker by allowing every single Chosen to use it, he could simply turn off that access once the war is won.

To me, the logical explanation would be that since it is the DOs own power, allowing the Chosen to use too much drains him of power. The DO is acting himself, expanding the Bore behind the patch, and messing around with the world. Allowing even just Moridin to constantly have access to the full TP might have a negative impact on that.

 

But that is just a guess.

[taliefer]

that is sorta what we are arguing tho. rand THINKS he has "so much power. so much devine wonder" because of the overly powerfull drug like effect of the True power. i do believe its possible the true power *may* be more powerfull than the saidar/saidin, in equal amounts,  but not to those extreme effects.

 

my thinking is like this: One Power: power rating 10, "life enhancing" qualities 10. True power power rating: 15(if it is ineed more powerfull at all), "life enhancing" qualities 100. where "life enhancing" refers to making things more vivid, and its addictivness level, ie drug like qualities. i believe, that due to the side effects of the true power, the wielders BELIEVE they are handling more power, and are capable of more things, than they actually are.

 

as you say, moridin called on the true power during a fight with rand, and STILL wasnt able to defeat him. moridin BELIEVED it was his ace in the whole, but it was not powerfull enough to defeat rand, who was merely wielding saidar

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's his first high on a new drug.  With any new drug, the first high is always the most intense and wonderful.  Addiction is the act of trying to recapture that first-time high.

 

Rand tells us what he feels.  But, what he feels is not reality.

[Malivis]

I don't actually think Rand can access the True Power at will anymore, after what happened to him on Dragonmount. He had his little epiphany, which of course meant that he wasn't in his permanent-void state that Semi managed to put him into. Once he realised that one of those enticing powers was gone, he also realised that he had no real reason to use the CK, because at that point it was pretty much only there to ward off the TP. It was his Anger, Hate and Desperation that allowed him access to the TP, whether through Ishydin or otherwise, but now he isn't consumed by those emotions anymore he no longer can touch it.

[Ashaman Drasil]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

[jwillis7]

I have a crazy hunch(i can't call it a theory), that Avienda is Ilyena reborn. She is going to find out in Rhudian. I did say crazy hunch ;)

 

i did not think that it worked like that, i thought it let you see through the eyes of people you are related to not people you were respun as.  Rand did not see through LTT, he saw through his Aiel ancestors.  She might be though, but i always thought that Ilyena if she was respun into one of rand's 3 she would be Elayne.

[Lownin]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

[Bob T Dwarf]

After his epiphany, Rand may simply no longer be tempted by the seductive qualities of TP.  In a sense, people are attracted to drugs of any type as a replacement for the fundamental connections that are lacking in their lives.

 

Now that Rand has corrected the imbalance in his outlook, he simply has no need for a substitute for caring.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

To karehiro,

 

It isn't a bit silly at all. Read my post again.

 

The feeling of invincibility is one of the inherent flaws in using the True Power. You could compare it to some type of drug high or something where you feel like you could fly or do anything.

 

If the Watcher was able to tap the equivalent of the Choedan Kal through the true power, why would he hesitate about going after a group of Aiel Wise Ones? He considers going back to kill them, doubting they can form a true ring.

 

In PoD when Rand is using Callandor, not as powerful as Choedan Kal, he says he will swat aside any Forsaken who came after him like as many moths. If Ishidin had as much strength thru the TP as one would with Sa'angreal, why would he even think about it? He would be the strongest man in the world and be able to crush any and all opposition.

 

Now, I am willing to agree with you that the quote about strength is about how the True Power actually feels when one uses it, but that does not mean that someone is correct in what they feel, nor could channel all of it at once. It is alluded to a couple of times that when channeling saidin you could feel the inexorable power of that calm river. When Rand seizes saidin, he can feel the churning rage of fiery tempests, but that does not mean he is able to harness the power of ALL of it. He is simply saying that when embracing the True Power, the feel of it is more intense than saidin. It makes him feel as strong as when he was using the Choedan Kal, but he would certainly be rudely disabused if he tried to match someone who was using even Callandor. Feeling invincible does not mean you really are. To use my previous analogy, people die all the time because a drug made them feel they could do something impossible. Feelings are not necessarily reality.

 

Argue all you want, quote all you want, what you are basing your comments on are clearly literary devices being used to illustrate how he feels, not the reality of what he could do with this power. It is completely unrealistic to think that someone using the True Power is literally as strong as the strongest male channeler using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made.

 

 

To Asha'man Drasal, I understood it as Rand was now in perfect mental harmony with all of his past lives, and can draw on their knowledge, memories, and experiences alike. Think like Birgitte with all of her memories when Elayne bonded her, but permanent. 

 

[Ashaman Drasil]

To karehiro,

 

 

 

To Asha'man Drasal, I understood it as Rand was now in perfect mental harmony with all of his past lives, and can draw on their knowledge, memories, and experiences alike. Think like Birgitte with all of her memories when Elayne bonded her, but permanent. 

 

That makes sense

[lsm]

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

How can you be so sure that it's just a coping mechanism. Throughout the series, I was lead to believe that this is another man inside his head. Then some evil-doers point out that it is not LTT and Rand is just going to go insane. Was Semirhage just being honest about the whole deal or was she trying to create a divide amongst Rand's friends.

 

I'm still not sure what the end of veins of gold means. He feels again, and he lost the voice, I think that much is clear. Yet, doesn't that also mean Rand lost the LTT edge he previously had? Not an insanity edge, more like the hints at weaves or memories of what to do in regards to the DO's prison. If LTT is gone, and although it's pointed out in the book that Rand's mind has retained memories from LTT, now that LTT is gone, will he not be able to obtain new memories?

[coteaz]

It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

Well if The TP is as powerful as the Choedan Kal then ishamael either wasn't using it when he vs'd lews therin, or he was and lews therin is just more skilled (remember you can slice weaves, and as far as i know you can create wardings around yourself to protect you from weaves (demandred did it in winters heart, deflected an attack by one of the ashaman linked to 2 aes sedai)). But i still think that the TP is equal to the OP, and that the addictive qualities of it make Rand FEEL stronger, but not neccessarily IS stronger. But yeah this does need to be explained lol.

[taliefer]

"He knew- somehow - that he would never again hear Lews therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been."

 

that quote pretty much says to me LTT was never *actually* in rands head. rand had his memories of a previous life in his head, and in order to cope with that, he made up an entirely seperate persona, voice included, to explain how he got those memories.

 

thats the short of it anyway ;p

[karehiro]

 

 

It also creates problems as to why Ishmael had ever lost to Lews Therin in the past, or why Moridin was apprehensive about facing a "true circle" of Wise Ones, if he could hold the same amount of power as Rand.  If he had access to the same amount of power, there would have never been a chance of him getting defeated by the likes of them.  That needs to be explained.

 

 

While I am not convinced that TP is so ¨berpowerful in terms of raw strength, I will pretend I do to come up with one possibility here. Since access to TP is granted directly by the DO, it should be possible for him to also control how much of TP someone is allowed to use. If Ishy can not hold his own against some 3rd Agers, untrained children in the eyes of not only the forsaken, but also in the eyes of the DO, maybe Ishy deserves what he gets.

 

Rand on the other hand...It seemed very much like a deliberate atempt to lure him to the dark side. Grant him access to as much TP as he can possibly handle, show him the power that can be his, if he just takes a different path.

 

ompare it to wine, if you will (hehe, I just ad to do this ;D). If you want to convince someone who has never tased wine that this is the best beverage in the world, you chose the most awesome wine you can find.

A wino on the other hand, as long as the colour is roughly right, and there is alcohol in it, he is happy as they come.

 

That does make sense, and it fact it meshes nicely with the scene in The Dragon Reborn when Ishmael was facing Rand with Callandor and was losing, but then gained alot of power when he entreated the Shadow to aid him (from what I remember, the lights dimmed when that happened, much the same as what happens now when Rand enters a room).

 

Though it's odd that the Dark One would set a limit on the amount of power he grants.  From what we know, it's only who he chooses to give it out to rather than how much he gives which is the main issue.  Which is the reason why I'm looking forward to seeing this explained.

 

 

I had a theory about that some time ago. Though that was based on the number of Chosen allowed access to TP. Out of thousands of Chosen, less than 30 were granted access. Why be so restricitve, since it obviously gives anyone wielding it an edge, even without it being überpowerful? Sure, the DO does not trust any of the Chosen, except for possibly Ishydin, but he does have full control. And if he could win the war much quicker by allowing every single Chosen to use it, he could simply turn off that access once the war is won.

To me, the logical explanation would be that since it is the DOs own power, allowing the Chosen to use too much drains him of power. The DO is acting himself, expanding the Bore behind the patch, and messing around with the world. Allowing even just Moridin to constantly have access to the full TP might have a negative impact on that.

 

But that is just a guess.

 

It's definitely a logical explanation that the amount of True Power, especially since the Dark One is sealed in the Bore, is a finite source and that would explain a few things if it could "run out" as it were.  That would also explain the reason why so few have it, and now why only Moridin is granted it.  I didn't think of it that way, so nice theory.

 

Truth to tell, if I were the Dark One or Moridin, I would just kill Rand.  I wouldn't spend time trying to turn him to the dark side or do grandoise gestures such as facing him on the battlefield.  I would kill him, preferably from a far distance with balefire.  Without a champion for the Light, the Dark One wins, period.  And if they were to kill Rand with balefire, that would have the added effect of unraveling the Pattern for good, since he's such an important focus point.  The destruction of the current Pattern is one of the Dark One's aims after all (or perhaps it's to remake the Pattern?)

 

I don't see the point of granting Rand the True Power.  Wouldn't having him as a captive be even better for the Dark One?

 

that is sorta what we are arguing tho. rand THINKS he has "so much power. so much devine wonder" because of the overly powerfull drug like effect of the True power. i do believe its possible the true power *may* be more powerfull than the saidar/saidin, in equal amounts,  but not to those extreme effects.

 

my thinking is like this: One Power: power rating 10, "life enhancing" qualities 10. True power power rating: 15(if it is ineed more powerfull at all), "life enhancing" qualities 100. where "life enhancing" refers to making things more vivid, and its addictivness level, ie drug like qualities. i believe, that due to the side effects of the true power, the wielders BELIEVE they are handling more power, and are capable of more things, than they actually are.

 

It's his first high on a new drug.  With any new drug, the first high is always the most intense and wonderful.  Addiction is the act of trying to recapture that first-time high.

 

Rand tells us what he feels.  But, what he feels is not reality.

 

I would have been inclined for this viewpoint as well if the fact wasn't that Rand clearly delineates the difference between the addictive aspect and the power aspect.

 

You're trying to make it as if Rand can't tell the difference between the ecstacy of the power, and the amount of power when he clearly does it in the passage I've shown:

 

Energy and life surged through him' date=' a torrent of power like [i']saidin[/i], only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent.  It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before.  It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined.  It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

 

The first two sentences clearly talk about the ecstacy of the power.  The last sentences clearly talk about the amount of power.

 

Saying that Rand is conflating the two or confusing the difference has no basis in fact or text, especially when that passage specifically demonstrates that he knows the difference.  Or the later passage which once again delineates a difference between the ecstacy of the power and the amount.

 

as you say, moridin called on the true power during a fight with rand, and STILL wasnt able to defeat him. moridin BELIEVED it was his ace in the whole, but it was not powerfull enough to defeat rand, who was merely wielding saidar

 

Ishmael nearly began matching Rand with Callandor once he called upon the Shadow to aid him, to the point where the darkness began dimming the light of Callandor.  If that was the True Power which is definitely what it seems to be, then how do you explain why Ishmael became much stronger afterwards (even if he didn't match Rand at full power with Callandor)?  Someone with the One Power, even the strongest channeler alive could have never gained that much power as Ishmael did unaided.

 

Of course this brings to question why Ishmael didn't have the power Rand displayed this book (which is the debate I was having with Majsju), but at that time Ishmael with the True Power nearly matched Rand with Callandor, something no one should have been able to do unless if they had a very powerful sa'angreal.  That proves the True Power can go grow exponentially in power.

[coteaz]

Well, im assuming that the dark need rand for the dark one to escape 100%, thats probably why they havn't killed him, they did the same thing in the AOL with lews therin, they kept trying to turn him instead of just killing him.

[taliefer]

yes, it talks about the amount of power...From a person who is high on that power. of course he thinks its just as powerfull, because he is so much more "high" (poor choice of words, i know) than he was when using the CK, so he assumes that also must cooralate into more power. which i dont believe is true

[karehiro]

@Jaric, coteaz

 

Like I brought up in the above post, Ishmael nearly matched Rand using Callandor with the True Power when before he was being run ragged.  If it was talking about just the addictive quality, there would be no chance of that happening.

 

Yet Ishmael nearly began matching Rand using one of the most powerful sa'angreal of all time, unaided.

 

That only proves my point that more of the True Power can be drawn upon, and discredits the theory that it's the same strength as the One Power.  No channeler using the One Power could do what Ishmael did.  He drew much more of the True Power than what he was using before, irrespective of the fact that Rand still managed to beat him.  If he managed to stregthen himself to that extent, then there's no basis to say it's impossible Rand is as powerful with the True Power as with the Choedan Kal, especially since it says so in the actual text.