The Dark One, Travelling and The Bore.

[Mr Ares]

In what way is it not an application of compulsion?

In the way that it works completely differently.

As I have already stated the method is irrelevant.

You stated wrongly. It is not Compulsion. That is a specific weave. This is a different weave.

[Lambada]

In what way is it not an application of compulsion?

In the way that it works completely differently.

As I have already stated the method is irrelevant.

You stated wrongly. It is not Compulsion. That is a specific weave. This is a different weave.

*Sigh*

Then please clarify what version of Compulsion you mean. The Graendal weave of total domination? Or the Ashaman weave that they call 'the extra bit' when bonding women? The Aes Sedai weave we saw in the Aiel Camp when we saw one sister interviewing another? The Aes Sedai weave that they use to bond warders which lets them influence them? It is plain throughout this series that there are many different weaves that can produce the same effect depending on the intent of the weaver. I have already stated many times with sound reasoning that the thing the weave is being used for counts as much as where the threads of water / air  / earth etc are placed.

 

Until you start actually countering my points you really aren't advancing your own argument. Of the few counters you have raised I have always responded to.

[Blackhoof]

Are you talkinbgabout how Semirhage tortured Cabriana with the power? That wasn't Compulsion. All the others are just variations of the original weave or the weave at different strengths.

[Mr Ares]

Then please clarify what version of Compulsion you mean.

All of them. Compulsion is mind control, not torture. What Semi did was torture, not mind control. Clear difference. It wasn't Compulsion, by any definition but your own.

[Lambada]

If they have the same final end then it seems pointless to distinguish between them. Both traditioinal compulsion and Samirhage v Cabriana (thanks for the names - I'd forgotten them) can result in the imparting of information / forcing someone to do what they want. I guess generally speaking were debating about whether to class something based on its means or its ends - hence my previous example about the many different means of obtaining the end of travelling through the air are all still classed as 'flying'.

 

Either way, this does not destroy my original theory which we seem to have been sidetracked from.

[Mr Ares]

If they have the same final end then it seems pointless to distinguish between them.

You dropping dead of a heart attack and you dropping dead of me shooting you have the same final end. Is it important to distinguish between death by natural causes and murder?

[Lambada]

If they have the same final end then it seems pointless to distinguish between them.

You dropping dead of a heart attack and you dropping dead of me shooting you have the same final end. Is it important to distinguish between death by natural causes and murder?

No. I'm still dead either way so I won't care. Much like the person being tortured or compelled won't even think of not disobeying / lying (either because they have no choice or because they know the consequences) either way they won't care.

[Mr Ares]

If they have the same final end then it seems pointless to distinguish between them.

You dropping dead of a heart attack and you dropping dead of me shooting you have the same final end. Is it important to distinguish between death by natural causes and murder?

No. I'm still dead either way so I won't care.

And your family? Or the police? Me?

[Lambada]

If they have the same final end then it seems pointless to distinguish between them.

You dropping dead of a heart attack and you dropping dead of me shooting you have the same final end. Is it important to distinguish between death by natural causes and murder?

No. I'm still dead either way so I won't care.

And your family? Or the police? Me?

 

They might care. But with the question of whether something is compulsion or not we only need to consider the effect on the person whom the methods are acting upon directly, in which case your question is irrelevant. Consider it this way - being made to do something by blackmail is treated the same way as being made to do something by being tortured under the law - both are mitigating circumstances for certain crimes.

[crazyfool]

 

They might care. But with the question of whether something is compulsion or not we only need to consider the effect on the person whom the methods are acting upon directly, in which case your question is irrelevant. Consider it this way - being made to do something by blackmail is treated the same way as being made to do something by being tortured under the law - both are mitigating circumstances for certain crimes.

 

This doesn't change the fact that compulsion is a different thing than torture. Just because the end result of two things is the same doesn NOT mean they are the same thing. That is oversimplifying everything. While you can group them in the same catigory don't call torture compulsion, they are seperate things.

[Lambada]

This doesn't change the fact that compulsion is a different thing than torture. Just because the end result of two things is the same doesn NOT mean they are the same thing. That is oversimplifying everything. While you can group them in the same catigory don't call torture compulsion, they are seperate things.

I've already provided a real world example (flying) where several things are called flying even though their means are totally different. I agree that they are definitely in the same category - the category of things called compulsion.

[Agitel]

There is Compulsion and there is compulsion. What Semirhage did was not Compulsion, as in, the actual weave of compulsion. I don't believe what Verin did was either, as it's a different weave and works differently. If you want to put a lower-case c on the word then the word may be applicable, but what there's a capital C on words like Compulsion, Healing, Talent, Traveling, have those capital letters for a reason, as they reference different weaves. Traveling and Skimming both get you from point A to point B, but they work differently, are different weaves, and have different names. Oh, you can certainly say that both can be called traveling if you want, but it's not with a capital T. What Verin did is to Compulsion as Skimming is to Traveling, and what Semirhage did was no closer, though it likely required similar knowledge to some degree, though any argument that she compelled someone involves a lowercase c.

[Mr Ares]

Consider it this way - being made to do something by blackmail is treated the same way as being made to do something by being tortured under the law - both are mitigating circumstances for certain crimes.

And yet while both blackmail and torture can force you to do things, they are still different crimes.

[Lambada]

@Agitel

I think we're working with different definitions (and thus will never agree) as I would call Verins weave Compulsion (with a capital C). Even Verin calls it Compulsion

Oh, it was just a way to make Father give her dresses or trinkets he did not want to buy, or make Mother approve of young men she ordinarily ran off, things of that nature, but the Tower rooted the trick out most effectively. Many of the girls and women Verin had spoken to over the years could not make themselves form the weaves, much less use them, and a fair number could not even make themselves remember how. From bits and pieces and scraps of half-remembered weaves created by untrained girls for very limited purposes, Verin had reconstructed a thing forbidden by the Tower since its

founding. In the beginning it had been simple curiosity on her part.

This shows how even Verin considers her weave Compulsion - so we are obviously working with different and incompaable definitions on what defines a 'unique' weave. In the same way I would say that Skimming is just a different form of Traveling - I believe that at one point a character says Travel when they do a 'Skimming' weave.

 

@Mr Ares

They are different crimes but as I have argued from the one whom the methods are being used on they still create the same end.

[GrandpaG]

It seems doubtful that the Bore was made by Traveling (or Skimming) since Gateways (in general) are not permanent (the Bore was/is permanent).

Blossoms of Fire (or it repeated) might be a more probable weave.

 

 

The bore is not only permanent, but is growing.

The only reasons gateways aren't permanent is that they are not self sustaining - tying off the weave causes it to (eventually) collapse. However, maintaining the flow causes it to be maintained, as does blocking the closure with another weave (i.e. how Rand and Asmo maintained Aviendahs weave during Rand and Aviendah's night in Seanchan.) I think it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that the True Power can also duplicate these effects - as I speculated back in my original post the Dark One could easily have the power to maintain the weave or stop it from closing. In fact, now that I think about it, the patch placed by LTT + companions may well also have helped in preventing the full closure.

As I have also speculated, the fact the Bore has grown may be more evidence that the Dark One is using his power to keep the weave open.

 

 

 

 

I just finished re-reading about Rand's escape during the battle of Dumai's Wells.  When he was trying to get past the knotted weaves to reach Saidin (sp?) he imagined a tiny tentacle reaching between the infinitely small gaps in the knots until he was through...and then he "flexed"...which enlarged the size of the tentacle...which enlarged the gap in the knot...etc...until finally, KABOOM!!!

 

 

Now, imagine the Dark One finding an infinitely small gap in the sealing of the Bore.

 

 

HHHHMMMMMMMM.... ::)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't wanna burst your bubble, Grandpa G, but -

 

The Wheel and all of reality are a mite stronger and tougher to burst than the weaves of a few Aes Sedai.

 

Plus, we have not seen any indication, so far, that the DO is as smart as Rand.  He seems to be concentrating on the Seals.

[SheaththeSword]

[glow=red,2,300]It has also been claimed by the Forsaken that any woman who tries the male method of travelling will end up being sucked outside the pattern.[/glow]

 

Lanfear thought she detected a new energy source through this thinness which was therefore outside the pattern. Given that she wanted to get to something outside the pattern what weave is she likely to have used? Perhaps the one weave that we know will take a woman outside the pattern - the male Travelling weave done with Saidar.

 

This would imply then that The Bore is simply a male Travelling weave made with saidar. We must thus conclude that any woman who tries to do the male Travelling weave will end up with The Dark One.

 

But being outside the pattern, is this by default inside the prison, or is there a prison definate and seperate from the 'not-patter'? This is unclarified.

 

Also unclear as to whether or not Lanfear(sp) & Co. were actually sucked outside the Pattern in the making of the bore. If they were, and assuming they were in the prison (as to opposed to on the rim of the bore, the feeling obtained at Shayol Ghul), is it even possible for an unconnected thread (Lannf.) to exist independant of the pattern?

 

On a side note, this raises the interesting notion that when men Travel they are actually boring a hole through the Dark Ones prison.

I really have problems with this idea. It would seem to suggest that the pattern is wrapped around the prison, or at least that every-thing outside the pattern is in the prison, and that every single male travelling weave leaves the pattern. We must remember that the pattern is not 2-D like a tapestry of this world, or even 3 dimensional. It is much more than that. It contains all the different possible realities, and progresses over time aswell. This means a weave that 'bores a hole in the pattern' does not necessarily have to be leaving the patern. I like to think of this as a shaft being sunk into the earth, near others. Boring through the ground in this case would necessarily mean leaving the ground/underground environment, one could simply be traveling to another shaft. (NB I realise this is imperfect as the miner must be occupying a bore in the first place, but it's the means of travel within the pattern/ground that matters)

 

Like the unfinished Traveling weave theory, however a few holes in the metaphysics  ;)

 

Excuse spelling

[Lambada]

But being outside the pattern, is this by default inside the prison, or is there a prison definate and seperate from the 'not-patter'? This is unclarified.

 

Also unclear as to whether or not Lanfear(sp) & Co. were actually sucked outside the Pattern in the making of the bore. If they were, and assuming they were in the prison (as to opposed to on the rim of the bore, the feeling obtained at Shayol Ghul), is it even possible for an unconnected thread (Lannf.) to exist independant of the pattern?

 

Like the unfinished Traveling weave theory, however a few holes in the meatphysics  ;)

I would say that by default being outside the pattern is the same as being inside the DO's prison. It would preserve the binary yin-yan system theme so prevelent throughout these books. I admit that is not conclusive proof in and of itself though.

 

For you second paragraph I'll need time to think on it. I recall reading somewhere that they were taken outside the pattern - can't think of the source though. It seems to me that a person must be able to exist outside the pattern as Lanfear and co were sealed with the DO when the Bore was patched. Unless the very fact it was only a patch means that the DO was never fully outside the pattern during the patched-years. I guess it depends on the view you take as to what the Pattern represents. Yes it is the threads of souls, but in what pattern? If it is a pattern of choices then it should be possible for such a thread to exist, if you think of the pattern as an Einstein space-time concept then perhaps not.

 

As an aside: It's nice to have someone start debating a different point of the theory :)

[Agitel]

@Agitel

I think we're working with different definitions (and thus will never agree) as I would call Verins weave Compulsion (with a capital C). Even Verin calls it Compulsion

Oh, it was just a way to make Father give her dresses or trinkets he did not want to buy, or make Mother approve of young men she ordinarily ran off, things of that nature, but the Tower rooted the trick out most effectively. Many of the girls and women Verin had spoken to over the years could not make themselves form the weaves, much less use them, and a fair number could not even make themselves remember how. From bits and pieces and scraps of half-remembered weaves created by untrained girls for very limited purposes, Verin had reconstructed a thing forbidden by the Tower since its

founding. In the beginning it had been simple curiosity on her part.

This shows how even Verin considers her weave Compulsion - so we are obviously working with different and incompaable definitions on what defines a 'unique' weave. In the same way I would say that Skimming is just a different form of Traveling - I believe that at one point a character says Travel when they do a 'Skimming' weave.

 

@Mr Ares

They are different crimes but as I have argued from the one whom the methods are being used on they still create the same end.

 

Also from that same section, just a little further on from your quote.

 

"Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was the need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious."

 

 

[Lambada]

Also from that same section, just a little further on from your quote.

 

"Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was the need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious."

I know that quote, but I think the fact that Verin considers it similar enough to say that it has been 'forbidden since the Towers founding' shows how two different weaves can still come under the same category of Compulsion (captial C). Think of it as the ancient weave as "Classical Compulaion" and Verins one as "Compulsion version 2" - after all any weave which was lost then re-discovered will probably be different (see how Aiel do some weaves differently to AS) unless of course the knowledge is gained through the Forsaken (Moggys capture) or memories (LTT's deathgates / invisibilty).

[Agitel]

Also from that same section, just a little further on from your quote.

 

"Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was the need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious."

I know that quote, but I think the fact that Verin considers it similar enough to say that it has been 'forbidden since the Towers founding' shows how two different weaves can still come under the same category of Compulsion (captial C). Think of it as the ancient weave as "Classical Compulaion" and Verins one as "Compulsion version 2" - after all any weave which was lost then re-discovered will probably be different (see how Aiel do some weaves differently to AS) unless of course the knowledge is gained through the Forsaken (Moggys capture) or memories (LTT's deathgates / invisibilty).

 

Then Skimming can be called Traveling with a capital T.

[Lambada]

Then Skimming can be called Traveling with a capital T.

Exactly.

[Agitel]

Then Skimming can be called Traveling with a capital T.

Exactly.

 

I disagree with you, but so long as you're consistent.

[Mr Ares]

@Mr Ares

They are different crimes but as I have argued from the one whom the methods are being used on they still create the same end.

Blackmailing you or torturing can both have the same end. They are still different things.

[Lambada]

@Mr Ares

They are different crimes but as I have argued from the one whom the methods are being used on they still create the same end.

Blackmailing you or torturing can both have the same end. They are still different things.

As I have stated though the fact that they can both have the same end means that when they do have the same ends they are in the same category i.e. Compulsion with a capital C.

Different Weaves can be in different categories depending upon the intent.

For Example, opening a gateway with the purpose to kill something (either shadowspawn passing through, or with the razor-edges) means that the weave can come under the 'Weapon' category. Yes, we now have a more refined version (deathgates), but if the original weave is used with that intent it can come under the Weapon category.