Your Least Favourite Plot Twists

[ErikTheBald]

I also have to admit that I was disappointed with Sammael's death.  When Rand killed Rahvin, you could practically hear the cheering.

 

It was a good plan to lure him out, and a good fight both in Illian and SL, but Death by Mashadar, (for one of the Forsaken!) just didn't cut it for me.

 

 

 

[Wingendosering]

Oh believe me, I know what a plot twist is.  I suppose I shouldn't have called all of those things in my lists twists...they were the EFFECTS of the twists.  For instance, Mat's contradictory personality leads to all sorts of strange changes throughout the plot of the book.  The fact that a gambler is always whiny and never wants to take risks leads to alot of weird situations....(What sort of gambler hates risk!?!??!?!)  And the novices and Accepted flocking to Salidar was more an effect of the White Tower Split twist.  However, yes the plot twists are often seen from afar via foreshadowing.

 

Anyways, I agree with most of what I'm seeing here, although I personally love the Ta'veran (sp?) concept.  It's a great fantasy twist to The Great Person theory.

[Ahaz Flagg]

  I have 2 plot twist that I do not like at all, and it has more to do with the people in the twist.

 

1.  Faile getting kidnapped, most dragged out useless plot in the book.

2.  Elayne's rise to the Queen, most certinaly way to dragged out, and almost all of it pointless to the story.  Could have spent 5 pages in the prologue to cover this.

 

Yeah, #1 never sat well with me.  ACtually, there are way to many kidnappings for my taste throughout whole series.  But back to #1, the Shaido don't fall unless Faile is kidnapped.  It was the wheel forcing events to shape up so Perrin would destroy them

 

the kidnappings do not bother me at all, it was and is normal today in our world.  I guess i am just bitter on how much I dislike Perrin after he an Falie hooked up.  She is the most unreasonable person in the series.  :)

[Delvoire]

Most, if not all the plot twists were ruined for me.  By the time I got the books I believe PoD had just released.  By the time I was into TDR I had already cracked and was internet searching.  I stumbled across the WOT FAQ and that just blew me away.  I couldn't wait to get to things that would happen later.  After PoD the only real surprising stuff that stuck with me was one of the lords dying with Mat, can't remember which one.  Also the death of Aram was surprising, but a long time coming.  The hate in him had been festering since TDR in my eyes.  Rands hand was a very big shock for myself.  It's hard to watch a main character go through such a disfiguring pain like that.  It reminds me of the way i felt when Roland lost his fingers.... :(  My least favorite twist though is the arrival of the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  I just have never liked her as a character nor her interactions with Mat.  It's almost like the Rand/Elayne relationship with Tuon being Elayne times 100 in Royal Pain in the Butt.

 

 

BTW, Why is there so much hate for Faile.  Mat and Perrin have been two of my favorite characters.  I love the Perrin/Faile relationship.  Someone earlier posted about how Mat is the most loyal of the Male characters, well then Perrin would have to be a very close second.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Most, if not all the plot twists were ruined for me.  By the time I got the books I believe PoD had just released.  By the time I was into TDR I had already cracked and was internet searching.  I stumbled across the WOT FAQ and that just blew me away.  I couldn't wait to get to things that would happen later.  After PoD the only real surprising stuff that stuck with me was one of the lords dying with Mat, can't remember which one.   Also the death of Aram was surprising, but a long time coming.  The hate in him had been festering since TDR in my eyes.  Rands hand was a very big shock for myself.  It's hard to watch a main character go through such a disfiguring pain like that.  It reminds me of the way i felt when Roland lost his fingers.... :(  My least favorite twist though is the arrival of the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  I just have never liked her as a character nor her interactions with Mat.  It's almost like the Rand/Elayne relationship with Tuon being Elayne times 100 in Royal Pain in the Butt.

 

 

BTW, Why is there so much hate for Faile.  Mat and Perrin have been two of my favorite characters.  I love the Perrin/Faile relationship.  Someone earlier posted about how Mat is the most loyal of the Male characters, well then Perrin would have to be a very close second.

 

Perrin was willing to forsake the world to the Greatlord of the Dark, he is not loyal at all. He is a slimeball, who deserves to die in trolloc cookpot. When Perrin fought the trollocs in the Two Rivers, he was all willy nilly how the young were now going to grow up and have kids. Than his worthless wife gets kidnapped, and he is willing to let the world go. Perrin is just as bad if not worse than any darkfreind to ever walk the planet.

[dwn]

Two events have always stuck me as overly forced:

 

It's been mentioned before, but Nynaeve capturing Moghedion just in time to help Rand kill Rahvin was annoying. It made for a couple cool scenes, but the timing and circumstances had to be just stupidly perfect for it to work.

 

Cadsuane's appearance out of the blue has always made her feel like a surrogate Moiraine. I like the character and think she's necessary, but her introduction was bad. I think I would've had her show up in Salidar in TFOH or LOC, disappear, then show up as she did in ACOS.

 

-- dwn

 

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Wingendosering]

Well, the title says it all!  What are your least favourite plot twists throughout the series?  Although this is my favourite fantasy series, I have quite a number of them.

 

In no particular order:

1.  Egwene becoming Amyrlin.  There are reasons, but they don't seem to stack up for me.

2.  Most of Mat's plotline...somehow his entire personality seems full of contradictions.

3.  Accepted and Novices flocking to Salidar when the location is secret to anybody but Aes Sedai looking for eyes and ears.

4.  The huge build up to Elayne ascension to the Lion Throne and its abrupt, unsatisfactory ending.

5.  The huge build up to the battle between the White Tower factions getting partially resolved without bloodshed and a kidnap that doesn't make sense (she should have been stilled).

6.  Siuan Sanche being tortured and stilled through some unexplained laws.

7.  Rand losing his hand.

8.  The Wise Ones orders that put Aviendha closer to Rand.

 

Well, that should do for now.  What are yours?

 

1. Strength in the power is a massively important, yet unstated thing to Aes Sedai. It decides their entire hierarchy. The reasons for Egwene to be Amrilyan (more like puppet) were given and make sense. Romanda/Leilane wouldn't have had it any other way.

2. That's what is so clever about it, no? He always thinks 1 thing and does the other. That's comedic relief.. maybe you don't get subtle humor though..

3. They didn't flock until it was announced they were rebels and started to march on the white tower and Egwene opened the novice book to anybody. Then they flooded in.

4. How else should it have ended?

5. The Aes Sedai on both sides say repeatedly that it should never come to open fighting so I was never looking forward to a battle that both sides wanted to avoid..

6. Aes Sedai torture people constantly either within the series or in casual mention to historical stuff.. they are always mentioning how people have been or should be put to the question.. that means torture. Things are often alluded to in these books. 1 of them is that Aes Sedai aren't exactly the nicest bunch. Sometimes they are downright mean.

7. it was alluded to.

8. why? they needed to tie the Caracarn to them. It was tried by others as well (in Carhein and by the Forsaken)

 

The only thing that bothered me a bit was Elayne and Rand never having spoken but falling in love. But it was forshadowed and there was some build up. They also spent considerable time making out in Tear. You can fall fast for a person.. I have in my life..

 

1.  As I said.  There are reasons given, but it still seems forced and doesn't seem realistic to me.  The White Tower summon an only partially trained Accepted from across the world when that woman is a) not permitted a shawl yet, b) Been Forced to develop her skill which is similar to being a Wilder and frowned upon, c) spent more time training with foreign One Power users than Aes Sedai....

 

It's like asking an Aiel Wise One to become Amyrlin

 

2.  No, that's not clever.  I suppose some of this can be blamed upon the memories Mat has, but that seems an easy way out.  As you say, it IS humorous, but to base a large portion of your storyline for 7 books or so on comedy is NOT a good approach.

 

3.  Before the novice book was opened up, the Little Tower was said to have almost as many people in it as the White Tower.  That's a TON of Accepted and Novices.

 

4.  It would have been nice if the three books of political scheming actually counted for something.  Here we are, reading a ton of pages about Elayne being clever and then BAM all that out the window, there's a battle and her political adversaries swear allegiance under duress (at the tip of a sword blade).

 

5.  I understand that nobody wanted bloodshed, but at this point their already commiting acts of war.  Just like above, how many pages were written solely for the purpose of following these Aes Sedai, raising Egwene as Amyrlin, producing Cuendillar, Gareth Bryne's recruiting, etc;?  Too many for it to end in a couple pages because Egwene gets captured taking a stupid risk.  And besides, Egwene should have been stilled.  Everything we know of tower law points to that.

 

6.  Yes, Aes Sedai are meanies.  However, the torture is not what I have a hard time with.  What I hated was that out of nowherem Leane is bound and Siuan literally has the stole torn from her shoulders with no warning, no hearing, nothing.  Later on we're told they "bare;y followed Tower law", but I hardly call that an explanation for such a massive event that changed the series so much.  We're even told that nobody knew how long Siuan had been manipulating the Dragon Reborn until AFTER she's been tortured and Stilled.

 

7.  It was alluded to, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  It's not so much the fact that he lost his hand as much as how he lost it and how the scene was written.

 

8.  How does ordering Aviendha to sleep by Rand's bedside tie Rand to them?  She was spending every waking moment with him already and they admit that she's not done anything they hoped she would and he clearly "saw past the pretty face", despite their intentions...so the second part of their order (share his bedchamber) seemed ridiculous and unecessary.

[crazyfool]

I think with the Wise Ones ordering Aviendha closer to Rand, at first they figured a pretty face would allow her to get in his trust. However when that didn't work I believe they were considering calling her back but Rand asked if she could continue teaching him about Aiel customs, because he secretly liked her or something. So that explains #8

[Mr Ares]

Methinks you do not understand what a plot twist is....plot twist is something unexpected...just about everything you mentioned was foreshadowed and anticipated.

Methinks you don't understand. Plot twists are frequently anticipated, and foreshadowed.

 

but did Jordan have to quite so blatantly make him a Mary Sue?

 

I mean - HEEEERE'S  BIG-BAD AGINOR!  Ooops, guess not. ???

HEEEERE'S BIG-BAD BEL'AL!  Oooops, guess not.

THEEERRRE'S REALLY-BIG-BAD SAMMAEL!  Ummmm, where'd he go?  That confrontation had been building for three books, and then pfffft, nada, zilch.  What a letdown.  More like a THUD.

So not doing everything yourself, relying on others, having character flaws, and occasionally winning through by the skin of your teeth, or flukes makes a Mary Sue? I don't think that term means what you think it means.

 

*eyes Luckers* ... men! You just don't know how these romance things are supposed to work!  ::)

Sure we do, you just slip it in her drink...Oh, you said roMANCE. In that case you slip a completely different it into somewhere else altogether.

 

*eyes Luckers* ... men! You just don't know how these romance things are supposed to work!  ::)

 

There's supposed to be a build-up - he wonders, she wonders, someone puts a spoke in the wheels, oh will the 2 ever get together ooooooohhhh sweet!

 

Not "Tom and Moiraine are now an item" ... guh?

I'm very romantic! I facebook stalk many people!

ROFL!!

 

Careful there - Mr Ares might get jealous  ;)

We enjoy a very open relationship. I let him stalk whoever he wants, he lets me corrupt whichever youths I want.

 

Agreed, but I also think we tend to minimize the difficulties of communications in a non technological society.

Forget about non technological, we spend enough time failing to communicate in this era of instant communications.

 

5. I understand that nobody wanted bloodshed, but at this point their already commiting acts of war. Just like above, how many pages were written solely for the purpose of following these Aes Sedai, raising Egwene as Amyrlin, producing Cuendillar, Gareth Bryne's recruiting, etc;?  Too many for it to end in a couple pages because Egwene gets captured taking a stupid risk.

But it didn't end. The rebels are still besieging TV.

And besides, Egwene should have been stilled.  Everything we know of tower law points to that.

And this was addressed in the book. She should have been executed, but Elaida waived that on the grounds of her being a pawn, and sent her back to being a Novice.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

hypothetical here, in regards to mr ares' comment about eggy being a pawn:

when elaida demoted the sister back to accepted, it was explained that if she refused to acknowledge it, it would have held no merit as there was no precedent for it in tower law. could eggy then also refuse to become a novice again? if she swallowed her pride, and looked at the situation, she also could refuse, and she would still be an accepted (at least in the actual tower, where they do not acknowledge the salidar hall's decisions) and not a novice. this wouldnt really help her situation that much, she would still be a prisoner, etc, but it would be one way of defying elaida and showing the sisters there that their amyrlin has no weight even among the trainees.

 

I apologize if this has been discussed before elsewhere, but eggy being captured is one of my least favorite events so i posted it here as mr ares' comment gave a bit of a lead in.

[OptimusPrime]

when elaida demoted the sister back to accepted, it was explained that if she refused to acknowledge it, it would have held no merit as there was no precedent for it in tower law. could eggy then also refuse to become a novice again?

 

Thats when Elaida would come down on her even harder, because from Elaidas PoV the Aes Sedai who raised Egwene didnt have the authority to do so. So from her PoV and the Aes Sedai who stayed with Elaida, Egwene has never been raised.

[richnewton82]

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[OptimusPrime]

/facepalm

 

OP if you dislike every aspect of the books so much why not go do something else.. you complain about EVERYTHING!

 

Who, me? Not sure if you meant me or the opening person but just in case it was me, you should read a few more of my posts. At one point Arkelias said the exact opposite of me, that all I ever seemed to talk about on here was how much I like RJs different way of doing things. But at that time it was just because all the discussions brought to the front of my mind how much I like how different the series is. How well RJ created it.

 

I merely take part in the discussions that are interesting. Wheel of Time is the best story I have ever read.

 

richnewton82 if you opened a thread called for what we like most about the series, you will forget I ever said anything bad about it. Dont get me wrong, there are one or two aspects of it that I dont like, but for each one there are a thousand things I think are so brilliant that I could literally rant and rave about it.

[richnewton82]

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[OptimusPrime]

Oh LOL I meant "original poster"

 

all of his threads involve him ranting about some plot arc or situation that makes perfect sense to 99.999999% of human beings.

 

Ah, sweet then. I tried to not make it sound like a heated response just in case. Someone should open that thread though...

[richnewton82]

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[OptimusPrime]

No worries, I wondered as a few people have referred to me as OP. My mistake.

 

I dislike the way that the Forsaken have developed such a reputation of misleading that almost anything they say is questioned. I think they became RJs only way to answer certain questions yet the fact that their methods are so deeply submerged in manipulation and mistrust makes it hard for some readers to believe ANYTHING they say. Best example in the entire series is Semirhages speech in KoD.

[Wingendosering]

/facepalm

 

OP if you dislike every aspect of the books so much why not go do something else.. you complain about EVERYTHING!

 

Where exactly?  Every aspect of the plot I mentioned here revolves around a few characters I don't like.  Nothing is perfect, RJ's story is no exception.  My posts actually cover lots of different topics...

 

Don't get me wrong.  I love the story and WoT is my favourite fantasy series.  However, there are still flaws and pointing out my disappointment with them isn't the same as disliking the series as a whole.  In general, I love Mat, but his contradictory personality sometimes leaves me puzzled, and I wish there was a better explanation regarding his choices. I hate Egwene and Gawyn.  Faile and Perrin can get tiresome if you have too much about them at once, but I do quite like both on their own.  However, I love Rand's storyline, Mat's is good even though, as I've said, there are some problems.  Pretty much all the other characters are awesome.

 

Don't let my hatred of Egwene cloud my respect for the series :(.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

when elaida demoted the sister back to accepted, it was explained that if she refused to acknowledge it, it would have held no merit as there was no precedent for it in tower law. could eggy then also refuse to become a novice again?

 

Thats when Elaida would come down on her even harder, because from Elaidas PoV the Aes Sedai who raised Egwene didnt have the authority to do so. So from her PoV and the Aes Sedai who stayed with Elaida, Egwene has never been raised.

 

No authority to be raised amyrlin, yes, but she was raised accepted meeting every precedent of the law. she would have to swallow the whole "the amyrlin curtsies to no one" speal, but she could still say she was raised accepted and there is no provision to demote an accepted back to novice status. that way even though she isnt acknowledged amyrlin and full aes sedai, she still thumbs her nose at elaida by refusing to be a novice and is still an accepted. do you see the point i am trying to make?

[Elgee]

If she fights for the title of Accepted, she indirectly acknowledges Elaida's assertion that she is not Aes Sedai or Amyrlin.

[Mr Ares]

could eggy then also refuse to become a novice again? if she swallowed her pride, and looked at the situation, she also could refuse, and she would still be an accepted.

Aside from what Elgee said, about it being a tacit acceptance that the Rebels are not the legitimate authority, and thus she is not the Amyrlin, which undermines her cause, it wouldn't actually help in any way either. For example, clothes. Where would she get an Accepted's dress? Even if she did, they'd just make her change. She wouldn't have the Great Serpent ring (if she got one, it would be taken off). So she would have to fight tooth and nail to wear a banded dress and a ring, and all the effort she's putting into that is saying "I'm not the Amyrlin, I'm an Accepted." In no way does it undermine Elaida. It undermines her cause with no possible gain.