Who will be Nae’blis?

[ErikTheBald]

So, Moridin is Nae’blis.  Why exactly?

 

As near as I can determine, that title has been all but promised to Demandred, Sammael and Graendal.  Those last two at the same time.  Possibly other of the Chosen as well.

 

At the beginning of LoC, Demandred is in the Pit of Doom and the DO asks him "WOULD YOU BE NAE’BLIS?"

 

At the end of LoC, Demandred is kneeling in the Pit of Doom, asking the DO, "Have I not done well?  Apparently not.  Not well enough to get the big tamale in any case.

 

During that time, Ishmael has been brought back on the scene in his fancy new Moridin body and been officially granted the title of Nae’blis.  What did he do during the time period from LoC (prior to which he was dead) until aCoS, Chapter 25 (when he appears holding Moghediens mind trap), that warranted the title over all the others, despite stacking failure upon failure in his attempts to turn or kill the Dragon Reborn.  All I can find is his apparent appearance as the watcher, spying on Sammael and Graendal.  

 

Is it something we don’t know, or something I’ve overlooked?  (always a possibility)  Did he disrupt something important they were up to, something important enough to the DO’s plans for chaos to gain him the top spot?  Or was it the DO’s intent to name Ishmael Nae’blis from the start.  Or, is it simply the DO pitting his followers against one another to weed out the weakest.  This has been stated in the text but it doesn't feel right.  I think there is something going on here.

 

Let’s consider why Demandred swore to the DO in the first place.   Wasn’t it because of his massive inferiority complex when his abilities and achievements were compared to Lews Therin?  A day late and a dollar short sums it up quite well if I’m not mistaken.  Now, we don’t know exactly what Demandred’s role in the events of LoC was, but he seemed to be fairly proud of himself.  

 

How is he taking it that Ishmael, who demonstrably wasn’t able to accomplish the simplest of tasks before being killed by an untutored shepherd, is raised above him?    

 

 

 

Edit: Minor spoiler removed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No better than you'd expect.

 

Bear in mind, none of them want anyone above them.  They all have their own private plans for doing away with the others as soon as they can.

 

Until then, Demandred will keep his head down and play good little soldier just as he has been doing.  But, never fear, he has PLANS for knifing Moridin just as soon as he can.

[Mr. Micawber]

Elan Morin was, according to everything we've seen, including the BBWBA and Jordan's comments, the Captain General of the Shadow during the AoL

 

In other words, he was at least nominally Commander-in-Chief (that's what Captain General means; there's apparently no Field Marshal position in Randland except in Saldaea and the temporary Seanchan wartime rank that I'm guessing Tuon will grant either Galgan or Mat or both during the coming throwdown).

 

The reason the Big Guy is tempting the Chosen with Nae'blis in LOC and ACOS is that Elan Morin's resurrection has not yet been televised. Towards the later part of ACOS we meet Moridin with Moghedien, and he's gots himself some nice mindtraps. Then we get an explicit Elan Morin POV in POD and *wham* he's back in the driver's seat by the end of the book.

[ErikTheBald]

But wouldn't killing whomever has been named Nae’blis place the hand that wielded the blade in direct defiance of the DO's orders and therefore on a swift road to an indescribably horrible death?

 

Is Nae'blis forever?  Moridin seems to think so.

 

Mr. Micawber, I don't disagree with anythng you've said, but what I'm trying to find out is what Ishmael/Moridin did to deserve the top spot.  He may have been top dog in the AoL, but so far he doesn't appear qualified to pour pee out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. 

 

I'm 2/3s of the way through aCoS on my 9th reread and it's either hidden, or I'm missing it.

[Mr. Micawber]

But wouldn't killing whomever has been named Nae’blis place the hand that wielded the blade in direct defiance of the DO's orders and therefore on a swift road to an indescribably horrible death?

 

Is Nae'blis forever?  Moridin seems to think so.

 

Mr. Micawber, I don't disagree with anythng you've said, but what I'm trying to find out is what Ishmael/Moridin did to deserve the top spot.  He may have been top dog in the AoL, but so far he doesn't appear qualified to pour pee out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. 

 

I'm 2/3s of the way through aCoS on my 9th reread and it's either hidden, or I'm missing it.

 

Because the only person equal to Elan Morin in the Power was LTT, and currently, Rand Al'Thor.

 

He is moreover, the only person to share the Big Guy's apparent plans, by which I mean the destruction of everything. Elan Morin, in his publicized conversion, called for the destruction of everything; the man's a nihilist.

[ErikTheBald]

So he's made Nae'blis because he's insane.  I get that, but isn't that just going to bring about the eventual downfall of the Shadow?

 

"MY CHOSEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONGEST."  if this were really the case, would Ishmael be the best choice?  I tell you, there is something missing.

 

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

So he's made Nae'blis because he's insane.  I get that, but isn't that just going to bring about the eventual downfall of the Shadow?

 

"MY CHOSEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONGEST."  if this were really the case, would Ishmael be the best choice?  I tell you, there is something missing.

 

 

 

 

How is he insane? You could actually argue he is the only *sane* one of the Chosen. The others are deeply deluding themselves into thinking that there will be a world left to rule.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We all suffer from the handicap of trying to make sense of what the DO does based on what would make sense if we were the DO.

 

To paraphrase Jordan, "He's not human.  We can't know how his mind works."

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

We all suffer from the handicap of trying to make sense of what the DO does based on what would make sense if we were the DO.

 

To paraphrase Jordan, "He's not human.  We can't know how his mind works."

 

 

 

Why do you think Shaidar Haran wants to break his connection to Shayol Ghul? Imagine the sort of conversations SuperFade is forced to have with an omnipotent being that chooses to live in a giant, fiery toilet and is prone to homicidal rages.

[OptimusPrime]

Removed. Spoilers.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Why do you think Shaidar Haran wants to break his connection to Shayol Ghul? Imagine the sort of conversations SuperFade is forced to have with an omnipotent being that chooses to live in a giant, fiery toilet and is prone to homicidal rages.

 

Ahhh, but is that really Shaidar Haran?  Does SH even have a mind of his own?  Or is this really just the DO, through Super Fade, expressing his own desire to be free?

[OptimusPrime]

 

Why do you think Shaidar Haran wants to break his connection to Shayol Ghul? Imagine the sort of conversations SuperFade is forced to have with an omnipotent being that chooses to live in a giant, fiery toilet and is prone to homicidal rages.

 

Ahhh, but is that really Shaidar Haran?  Does SH even have a mind of his own?  Or is this really just the DO, through Super Fade, expressing his own desire to be free?

 

This is what I believe to a point. Shaidars mind is part of the Dark Ones. They are only seperate in that it allows the Dark One to be away from his prison. I believe Shaidars consciousness is a lesser version of the Dark Ones, meaning that Shaidars motives will never differ from the Dark Ones because it IS the Dark One. But only a shadowy version, as opposed to the full thing. If the Dark One was in the world, shadowy form or not, he would most likely want the option of roaming about causing chaos or forcing his highest to stay in line without having to run back to Shayol Ghul every five minutes. So Shaidars thoughts on wanting the connection to his own prison to be broken are all about freedom of movement, in my opinion, and not freedom of will, which he already has.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Getting back to the original question:

 

If we must have an understandable reason for Moridin being Nae'blis, it's probably that he is the only one who seems to be willing to do literally anything that the DO wants.  ( not true, but he's been good at making it look that way - he wants LTT/the Dragon to acknowledge him the better man first and foremost )

 

The DO taunts Demandred in the LoC Prologue with WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS, simply because he knows that Demandred has reservations and will not do literally anything ( such as using as much balefire as it takes ) to break the DO free.  Same with the others.

 

The tiny distinction among them is that the others all want to ride the tiger and survive, Moridin doesn't care if he survives, just so long as he gets to take down the Dragon first.

[OptimusPrime]

Plus we have to remember the successes Ishamael had. He made Artur Hawkwing deny Healing on his deathbed, made him declare war on Aes Sedai. He created the Black Ajah, which has been about for a hell of a long time without any major exposure until recent times. He did what was necessary to make the Dragon kill himself, which is a massive achievement in and of itself.

[moroten]

I think that the DO made Moridin Nae'blis because he seems simply the most loyal to his cause, of course there are arguments against this but I think he is way more loyal than the remaining chosen.

 

Graendal tells us in her pov that she had been told she might get the Nae'blis title, although the DO seems to be going for a survival of the fittest attitude there for awhile. But I still think that he chose Ishy for the above argument. But I do have a problem with Sammael:

 

Concerning Sammael i always figured that he hadnt been told anything concerning about Nae'blis altho there are things that support this, for example that Graendal tells us in her pov that he had been to see the DO and had come with a rly new sense of confidence from there, maybe he had been told like demandred. We also get the information that no one would be stupid enough to lie about being Nae'blis from Graendal's pov. This support him going and having been told. But what I find questionable concerning Sammael is when he and Graendal is watched by Shadar Haran after they had dispersed the Shaido, Shadar Haran seems suprised when Sammael reminds Graendal who will be Nae'blis. SH was at the meeting between demandred and the DO, and one can assume that he was there aswell when the others were brought there, especially concerning that condition of his that he cant leave whenever he wishes. I also find that lying about this fits Sammael somehow, he is after all alone versus Rand, dragging Graendal with him got him a powerful ally.

 

 

[ErikTheBald]

Sammael met her stare with one just as hard. "Remember who will be Nae’blis, Graendal," he said, and stepped through his gateway. 

 

Sounds like he got an assurance to me.  Lies in the DO's name have unpleasant consequences as I recall.

 

The point I'm trying to make is this.  Am I the only one who thinks there is something rotten in Denmark. I suspect that there was something huge and dark that happened behind the scenes. 

 

"Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" The Great Lord’s laughter filled Demandred’s head.

 

I just reread that entire book, all 395,788 words of it and Demandred didn't do a d*mn thing except deliver a message and spy on Elayne once. 

 

 

Have I not done WHAT well?  What did he do that so tickled the DO's funny Bone? 

 

So, was the joke on Demandred?  If it was, and the Source is now clean, you'd almost think he'd be thinking about turning his cloak again. 

[Inveli]

The next Nae'blis...is me.

[OptimusPrime]

The next Nae'blis...is me.

 

Gotta go through me first! And my skin is cuendillar, not metal. Stupid films

[Beren]

Well, first off I have to address the whole Demandred comment. I am sure we are going to find out that Demandred did way more than it appears at first and you can see his hand in several things if you look close enough.

 

As for Sammael, I think something was going on behind the scenes that we didn't see. Shaidar Haran? Did RJ ever confirm that Sammael was gone for good? I don't remember how he died offhand, but I don't think it was balefire.

 

Demandred will not get it. I am almost certain of this. It has been brought up so many times that Demandred's life was made entirely of being second best. My guess is that this will continue or he is gonna do something seriously nuts if he even wants a shot at Nae'blis.

 

Moridin is currently Nae'blis, but his connection to Rand, well, I don't think he will be staying Nae'blis if he starts feeling things that Rand does. For some reason, I don't see Moridin staying Nae'blis the whole time.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Netherlands tour 8 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Gonzo reporting

 

RJ: Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.

[Aiemond]

Mordin is Nae'blis because he is the only forsaken that has the same goal as the DO does. Yes, the other forsaken want the DO to be free so they can have their infinite power or to have liberties they didn't under the light, but that's really the only things they are focusing on. Their goals are not at all in line with the DO except for getting him free (which is enough for him to use them, but also prolly one reason he has no trust).

 

How can we tell this? First off, they always talk about their coming power and kingdoms, etc when we see the point of view. We also see them talking about being jealous, or looking forward to being able to off another of the forsaken they don't like to raise themselves. We also see how they do not understand why they are not to kill rand, how they worry about balefire, or the fear they have of using the TP. Most damning though, they believe the DO is actually going to have a world where they will rule.

 

Mordin though, he is more in line with the DOs goals. I think some of this had to do with him being a philosopher (the idea of the DO and the eternal war fits in his worldview), some on his use of the TP and some on the fact he is the DOs champion. We see him thinking about the eternal battle and about this whole thing as a game of stones. He cares about beating the dragon because of this war and ending the wheel of time...the same thing that the DO really really wants (and, other than petty jealousy of LT, we see the others have nothing in common with this goal). I don't think Mordin expects to live past the DO being free, in fact I don't think he cares. He uses the TP freely even with the cost (which I think is having the DO actively influence your personality in addition to the saa) and is seen as "insane" (which, if the forsaken knew what the DO thought and planned they would think of him as well).

 

This is why Mordin is Nae'blis in a nutshell. He really is the only one who actually has the same goals as the DO.

[Beren]

He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael.

 

Interesting section of the quote. I wonder why he said that and didn't just leave it at "he's dead."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Because all souls are reborn again in The Wheel of Time.  Normal birth.  Formula.  Diapers.  All that ugly, smelly baby stuff.

[Beren]

Duh at myself. That should have been obvious. I'm up just a little late after a long day. Will try not to post something like that without thinking it through next time.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael.

 

Interesting section of the quote. I wonder why he said that and didn't just leave it at "he's dead."

 

To derail any Sammael reincarnation theories.