Jason's review of TGS (Egwene speculation)

[Mr Ares]

Or the oath against lying becomes 'I won't lie, misdirect or mislead'... Although I can see the AS getting uppity about that one.

Sometimes you need to do those things. They should scrap the Oaths entirely. Trust should be earned.

 

I stated this before but never saw the response from my fellow posters, but what if the attack on the tower by the Seanchan is a good thing?

Which part of hundreds of women being turned into slaves and treated as something less than human is a good thing?

[Durinax]

Quote from: apbadd on October 16, 2009, 10:28:55 AM

I stated this before but never saw the response from my fellow posters, but what if the attack on the tower by the Seanchan is a good thing?

Which part of hundreds of women being turned into slaves and treated as something less than human is a good thing?

It could be a good thing if my guess is right

[Diederichos]

Actually, I'll disagree with most of what I have read. The Oaths are by and large the only hope that the Aes Sedai will be as long-lived an institution post-TG as they have been up until now. To tell the truth, the BT post-TG will be an organization of tremendously powerful men who have no way of being limited in what they can do. If you were an average Westlander and you were asked to choose which of the two would survive, what would you choose, an organization that has limits placed upon it(even if they are self-imposed and even if one of them is wishy-washy) or one that has nothing concrete to stop it from becoming power-hungry.

 

Think of it this way, there will be no connection to the average people for the BT post TG, they will be just like the WT an organization of channelers tied to no one in particular. So there is nothing to keep them grounded and there is no built-in tradition to limit them within their communities or the world at large as with the Seafolks and the Wise Ones, no community link as with the Knitting Circle and no forced control as with the damane.

 

So, you basically have an ultra-powerful organization without even the veil of accountability. Now, removing the WT oaths will make them the same way which is bad all around, removing accountability, even if it is stretched as far as it has been has no real benefit. The Oath about not using saidar without feeling in danger prevents people from willy-nilly offing people, the Oath against telling lies ensures that while the truth may be bent extremely far, it is still the truth in some way or other. The Oath against weapons is also a backup to not using the power(having a cuendillar-armed force killing for them) and also it provided reason for them to stay out of the petty squabbles instead of supporting X country warring over Y country for a piddly reason. It doesn't mean that if a war is worthwhile they won't assist, but still, most of the fights are petty squabbles and the Oaths insure that the WT is not involved.

 

I will go so far as to say that the BT should not survive without a form of the Oaths. Otherwise what would restrict Ashaman from going gungho without good reason?

[Jemlin]

Actually, I'll disagree with most of what I have read. The Oaths are by and large the only hope that the Aes Sedai will be as long-lived an institution post-TG as they have been up until now. To tell the truth, the BT post-TG will be an organization of tremendously powerful men who have no way of being limited in what they can do. If you were an average Westlander and you were asked to choose which of the two would survive, what would you choose, an organization that has limits placed upon it(even if they are self-imposed and even if one of them is wishy-washy) or one that has nothing concrete to stop it from becoming power-hungry.

 

Think of it this way, there will be no connection to the average people for the BT post TG, they will be just like the WT an organization of channelers tied to no one in particular. So there is nothing to keep them grounded and there is no built-in tradition to limit them within their communities or the world at large as with the Seafolks and the Wise Ones, no community link as with the Knitting Circle and no forced control as with the damane.

 

So, you basically have an ultra-powerful organization without even the veil of accountability. Now, removing the WT oaths will make them the same way which is bad all around, removing accountability, even if it is stretched as far as it has been has no real benefit. The Oath about not using saidar without feeling in danger prevents people from willy-nilly offing people, the Oath against telling lies ensures that while the truth may be bent extremely far, it is still the truth in some way or other. The Oath against weapons is also a backup to not using the power(having a cuendillar-armed force killing for them) and also it provided reason for them to stay out of the petty squabbles instead of supporting X country warring over Y country for a piddly reason. It doesn't mean that if a war is worthwhile they won't assist, but still, most of the fights are petty squabbles and the Oaths insure that the WT is not involved.

 

I will go so far as to say that the BT should not survive without a form of the Oaths. Otherwise what would restrict Ashaman from going gungho without good reason?

 

The Windfinders, Wiseones and Kin are not bound by the Oath Rod, yet they are extremely respected and well integrated into their societies.

 

The White Tower and Black Tower can equally be integrated, but it takes a level of conduct that surpases the Oath Rod.  The Oath Rod actually causes people to be even more suspicious of Aes Sedai than they should be.  Instead of earning respect, they demand it, and they usually confirm people's beliefs that they are to not be trusted.  Remember in the first book, when Rand is warned about asking for an Aes Sedai's help?  They are not trusted.

 

I think that if any large orgnization is to survive TG, whether it be of male or female channelers, it will need to change the approach the White Tower had for 3 thousand years

[Mr Ares]

If you were an average Westlander and you were asked to choose which of the two would survive, what would you choose, an organization that has limits placed upon it(even if they are self-imposed and even if one of them is wishy-washy) or one that has nothing concrete to stop it from becoming power-hungry.

They would likely choose against the male channelers based solely on that. If they chose they AS, it wouldn't be because of the Three Oaths. People don't trust AS. As yet, they have no reason to trust the Asha'man either. The thing is, they have no guarantee their leaders aren't going to turn out to be psychopaths, warmongers, or idiots. The Wise Ones and the Windfinders have a place in society and are not held back by Oaths. The AS are held back by Oaths, but have no place in society. They stand outside it, and meddle.

 

without even the veil of accountability.

AS are not accountable to any save other AS. The problem is if you take an Oath not to lie, ever, it gives the impression that you're having to be held back from it. The AS think it's good that when they say x, people might scan it eight ways from Sunday, but they'll accept they mean x in the end. The problem is people shouldn't need to scan through what they say so comprehensively, looking for alternative meanings. Most people are trusted as honest because they are. AS aren't trusted as honest. They are liars until proved otherwise. The Oaths do not help there, and as they halve life expectancy as well, they should be scrapped. They need to find a new way to be thought of as honest. Maybe they should try being trustworthy.

The Oath about not using saidar without feeling in danger prevents people from willy-nilly offing people

They can kill people without the Power. As long as saidar isn't used as a weapon, it can still be used to help.

the Oath against telling lies ensures that while the truth may be bent extremely far, it is still the truth in some way or other.

But the truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear. It just means everyone knows you can trust what they say, but you have to look very closely to make sure they are saying what they seem to be.

The Oath against weapons is also a backup to not using the power(having a cuendillar-armed force killing for them)

But the making of cuendillar and Power-wrought steel have long-since been lost to them. And they are still capable of putting together an army backed by conventional weapons.

and also it provided reason for them to stay out of the petty squabbles instead of supporting X country warring over Y country for a piddly reason.

It being a piddly reason should be enough to keep them out. What you're saying is that people might think that unless there was something specific holding them back, they'd be starting wars, murdering with the Power, and lying constantly. That's precisely why they need to scrap the Oaths. It leads to a lack of trust. They need to show that the reason they're not murdering with the Power is that they are not murderers, they are not lying because they're not liars, they're not starting wars because they're not warmongers. What holds the Asha'man back? Human decency, for a start.

[SinisterDeath]

Under the Light, I vow to speak no word that is not true.

This does have its advantages, and disadvantages.

Just because the more 'learned' people have to scan every word an Aes Sedai speaks, doesn't mean that the commoner will.

You know that whole 'education' thing? They may have heard rumors about Aes Sedai, but they know they speak the truth.

I believe they also know if you catch one in a lie, they aren't an Aes Sedai.

 

Under the Light, I vow never to make a weapon for one man to kill another.

Quite obvious what this means. Specially with Egwenes new found source of income.

Course, this doesn't stop her from comissining Aes Sedai from making FARM EQUIPMENT.

Perfect for militia.

 

Under the Light, I vow not to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn, or in the last defence of my life, the life of my Warder, or that of another Sister.

 

They can't use the power as a WEAPON until threatened. That doesn't mean they can't put up defenses.

Also, who is on the out side of the tower? Who is going to get hit by the seanchan first?

If they get hit first, the Aes Sedai have the perfect means for using there powers to go on the offensive.

 

 

Also, someone mentioned that the Oath Rods were used only for criminals, or possibly for people who felt guilty about something.

Perhaps the reason Aes Sedai orginally started using the oath rods, is because they felt guilty for 'lying' to Lewis Therin about helping to seal the DO. Then like a blind date never show up.

[algspkr]

Also, someone mentioned that the Oath Rods were used only for criminals, or possibly for people who felt guilty about something.

Perhaps the reason Aes Sedai orginally started using the oath rods, is because they felt guilty for 'lying' to Lewis Therin about helping to seal the DO. Then like a blind date never show up.

 

The three oaths did not come into existence until the purpose of the rod had been forgotten.  I would guess that the dangers and method of oath removal had been forgotten as well else I don't believe that we would still have them.

[Diederichos]

They never lied, they were very clear that they wouldn't help him at all Fateful Concord and all.

 

As well, no, the WT and the BT cannot be integrated. They are based in the Westlands which are fractured and likely will remain so compared to the Aiel and the Seafolks. Secondly, they are a centralized institution whereas the Wise Ones share many links, regularly talk but ultimately they are integrated first and foremost into their clan and the same for Windfinders. The Kin are also integrated into their communities and again they are a very decentralized organisation. Now compare that to the WT and the BT who are for all intents and purposes considered nations unto(into?) themselves. Short of removing the Tower part and making it a decentralized group, they cannot be integrated.

 

The reasons the Windfinders, Wise Ones and Kin are respected has nothing to do with being bound by the Oath Rods and everything to do with 1. their groups being far more united than the Westlands are 2. being a very decentralized group(there is no formal equivalent to the Amyrlin Seat or M'hael within both organizations) 3. being able to be integrated at the individual level into communities. It's mixing two different things and saying that one is the cause or the other and vice versa.

 

Now that I think about it, the Windfinders, Wise Ones and Kin have their own form of the Oath Rods, their cultures and traditions. The WT and BT do no have any such cultural limits and will most likely not have that to draw on and so another form of limitation is needed.

[SinisterDeath]

Also, someone mentioned that the Oath Rods were used only for criminals, or possibly for people who felt guilty about something.

Perhaps the reason Aes Sedai orginally started using the oath rods, is because they felt guilty for 'lying' to Lewis Therin about helping to seal the DO. Then like a blind date never show up.

 

The three oaths did not come into existence until the purpose of the rod had been forgotten.  I would guess that the dangers and method of oath removal had been forgotten as well else I don't believe that we would still have them.

 

I dunno about that, there were bound to be a few 'aes sedia' left over from the breaking that helped 'found' the tower. So its entirely possible that they 'orginally' knew about it, just didn't decided to pass on that knowledge to the 'new' generations. Considering the 'orignal' Aes Sedia weren't bound by oaths, they had a much higher 'life expectancy' than current ones... And given the nature of the OP, they'd seek out 'students'... The only way they wouldn't know about them, is if some surviving aes sedia didn't play any hand into the 3 oaths at all.

 

Course, If the Aes Sedia 'white tower' was formed, say, 5 generations after the last 'aol' aes sedia died, I wouldn't put it past Ishmale to introduce these 'new aes sedia' (probably students of the pre-breaking ones.) to the oath rods...

 

Considering the 'commoner' post breaking Would have said.

1) this is lewis therins fault.

2) it was a woman who opened the bore.

3) all channelers are responsible

4) all male channelers are going insane.

5) how can we trust anyone with that much power again?

 

So I can totally see them using the 3 oaths as a way to get 'society' to trust at least the females again. 'everyone' knows that the 'female' aes sedia backed down on sealing the bore. perhaps if they joined, no one would have went insane. (or both would have.)

[Jemlin]

Also, someone mentioned that the Oath Rods were used only for criminals, or possibly for people who felt guilty about something.

Perhaps the reason Aes Sedai orginally started using the oath rods, is because they felt guilty for 'lying' to Lewis Therin about helping to seal the DO. Then like a blind date never show up.

 

The three oaths did not come into existence until the purpose of the rod had been forgotten.  I would guess that the dangers and method of oath removal had been forgotten as well else I don't believe that we would still have them.

 

I dunno about that, there were bound to be a few 'aes sedia' left over from the breaking that helped 'found' the tower. So its entirely possible that they 'orginally' knew about it, just didn't decided to pass on that knowledge to the 'new' generations. Considering the 'orignal' Aes Sedia weren't bound by oaths, they had a much higher 'life expectancy' than current ones... And given the nature of the OP, they'd seek out 'students'... The only way they wouldn't know about them, is if some surviving aes sedia didn't play any hand into the 3 oaths at all.

 

Course, If the Aes Sedia 'white tower' was formed, say, 5 generations after the last 'aol' aes sedia died, I wouldn't put it past Ishmale to introduce these 'new aes sedia' (probably students of the pre-breaking ones.) to the oath rods...

 

Considering the 'commoner' post breaking Would have said.

1) this is lewis therins fault.

2) it was a woman who opened the bore.

3) all channelers are responsible

4) all male channelers are going insane.

5) how can we trust anyone with that much power again?

 

So I can totally see them using the 3 oaths as a way to get 'society' to trust at least the females again. 'everyone' knows that the 'female' aes sedia backed down on sealing the bore. perhaps if they joined, no one would have went insane. (or both would have.)

 

It would be difficult to judge "generations" of Aes Sedai in light of women who were not bound by the Oath Rods and who lived hundreds of years longer than current Aes Sedai, even if in harsher conditions than the AoL.

 

Its also said that the Aes Sedai were not bound by the Oath Rod until after the Trolloc Wars, but that they still followed the Oaths before then.  I imagine the Oaths were picked up after the forming of the White Tower and at the beginning of their attempt to control/influence the world around them.

 

At some point, the Aes Sedai made the change of perception of "Servants of All" to "Meddlers of All".  Who knows what the original women were thinking, but its probably obvious they were a little *Stressed* and influenced by the fresh Breaking of the world, and destruction of Civilization and fall into "Primitive" living.  A Desperate ragtag group of surviving (and possibly some newly taught, but not as well trusted) women channelers who knew that the Bore was not sealed perfectly (apparently some of them knew Ishmael was not fully sealed and things could break) and that at some point, it migh tall go to hell again.

 

My point?  Well, They had very different origins than the Wise Ones, Kin and Windfinders, and their origins explain how they were both disconnected and connected to the world around them.

 

 

[algspkr]

Also, someone mentioned that the Oath Rods were used only for criminals, or possibly for people who felt guilty about something.

Perhaps the reason Aes Sedai orginally started using the oath rods, is because they felt guilty for 'lying' to Lewis Therin about helping to seal the DO. Then like a blind date never show up.

 

The three oaths did not come into existence until the purpose of the rod had been forgotten.  I would guess that the dangers and method of oath removal had been forgotten as well else I don't believe that we would still have them.

 

I dunno about that, there were bound to be a few 'aes sedia' left over from the breaking that helped 'found' the tower. So its entirely possible that they 'orginally' knew about it, just didn't decided to pass on that knowledge to the 'new' generations. Considering the 'orignal' Aes Sedia weren't bound by oaths, they had a much higher 'life expectancy' than current ones... And given the nature of the OP, they'd seek out 'students'... The only way they wouldn't know about them, is if some surviving aes sedia didn't play any hand into the 3 oaths at all.

 

Course, If the Aes Sedia 'white tower' was formed, say, 5 generations after the last 'aol' aes sedia died, I wouldn't put it past Ishmale to introduce these 'new aes sedia' (probably students of the pre-breaking ones.) to the oath rods...

 

Considering the 'commoner' post breaking Would have said.

1) this is lewis therins fault.

2) it was a woman who opened the bore.

3) all channelers are responsible

4) all male channelers are going insane.

5) how can we trust anyone with that much power again?

 

So I can totally see them using the 3 oaths as a way to get 'society' to trust at least the females again. 'everyone' knows that the 'female' aes sedia backed down on sealing the bore. perhaps if they joined, no one would have went insane. (or both would have.)

I don't remember where it was written, but if I remember correctly the oaths were initiated one by one either right before or right after the Trolloc Wars.  And given that there is a good chance that the Oath Rod was found a significant amount of time after the Breaking there is a good chance that it was never mentioned in training by the original Aes Sedai.  

 

Keep in mind that somehow things that require only knowledge were lost, like Traveling.  And a lack of strength in the current trainees is no reason to not teach it, as Sorilia knows the weave on top of which linking allows several women who are too weak to Travel to do so.

[brando]

Alot of questions have been asked about how the tower would handle being attacked and also their views on the oaths and whatnot. I was wondering how the Aes Sedai can even be made damane, I understand they can be made a damane but how could the Seanchan use them effectively as a weapon? They aren't allowed to use the power as a weapon so that oath would stop them from blowing crap up.

[SinisterDeath]

Alot of questions have been asked about how the tower would handle being attacked and also their views on the oaths and whatnot. I was wondering how the Aes Sedai can even be made damane, I understand they can be made a damane but how could the Seanchan use them effectively as a weapon? They aren't allowed to use the power as a weapon so that oath would stop them from blowing crap up.

 

I think it happened in the book actually.

 

Aes Sedia die when ordered to do something via the collar unless the sul'dam cancels the order...

 

Easy example of what happens? Take a batter and have a wire running from both the + and -. A lil while it'll blow up.

[brando]

Thanks!

 

I knew what would happen just didn't remember seeing it come into play

[SinisterDeath]

Thanks!

 

I knew what would happen just didn't remember seeing it come into play

 

well I think it was more of a side comment by a sul'dam saying 'aes sedia are useless as damane because blah blah blah', that kinda 'it happened'...

 

but don't take my word for it, I haven't read the books through in a couple years now...

[brando]

I just don't get why they want to attack when they are hardly any use to them.

Granted they can do many other things but the main core of damane is to fight. All of the other usefull things the Damane do for the Seanchan back home like, finding ore, making terangreal, etc. are lost talents to most Aes Sedai here.

[SinisterDeath]

I just don't get why they want to attack when they are hardly any use to them.

Granted they can do many other things but the main core of damane is to fight. All of the other usefull things the Damane do for the Seanchan back home like, finding ore, making terangreal, etc. are lost talents to most Aes Sedai here.

 

The seanchan already know that in the westlands, the White Tower is akin to there Vatican. The White tower is the one 'constant' with the westlands. Take them down, other nations stop communicating with each other, possibility of alliances start to go down the drain. (Course, it could be argued, that if they were to fall, the news would spread so fast everyone 'would' unite but thats pre-Rand thought really.

They are a formidal opponent. The Seanchan don't really know about the 3 oaths as a whole. (They sure in hell didn't know about them when they came over) So as far as they are all concerened, Aes Sedia are nothing more than unleashed Damane. And we know how deadly a Damane is.

 

+ theres bragging rights.

No one has taken down the White Tower since it started. Its been seiged and seiged and seiged before, but has never fallen. (I think they stated even artur hawking failed to take the WT) The only other place that would have been near as important to take down has already fallen to rand... Its a great demorilizing factor. If Artur Hawking couldn't do it, with a united 'world' (think Rome), What chance do you have of defending against a force that just took them down?

 

Theres a reason back in the middleages once you took down the capital you controled the country. (also probably because most of there forces were already there anyways) But they are ussually the 'hardest' to even get to, let alone 'take', and the commoners would't really care unless they raised taxes. ;)

[Luckers]

Alot of questions have been asked about how the tower would handle being attacked and also their views on the oaths and whatnot. I was wondering how the Aes Sedai can even be made damane, I understand they can be made a damane but how could the Seanchan use them effectively as a weapon? They aren't allowed to use the power as a weapon so that oath would stop them from blowing crap up.

 

They can't. We've seen this in the books--Tuon's der'sul'dam chooses Mylen (Sheraine) to accompany them to find Tuon despite her being useless in battle, and we Suroth states that it was impossible to make Pura (Ryma) speak a lie.

 

RJ also commented on it in the Tor QotW.

 

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree of the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.

 

Alot of questions have been asked about how the tower would handle being attacked and also their views on the oaths and whatnot. I was wondering how the Aes Sedai can even be made damane, I understand they can be made a damane but how could the Seanchan use them effectively as a weapon? They aren't allowed to use the power as a weapon so that oath would stop them from blowing crap up.

 

I think it happened in the book actually.

 

Aes Sedia die when ordered to do something via the collar unless the sul'dam cancels the order...

 

Easy example of what happens? Take a batter and have a wire running from both the + and -. A lil while it'll blow up.

 

No, they don't die. What you are thinking of is when Pevara commands the ferret to admit that she is lying about the Reds involvement with Logain. The conflicting oaths (the oath to speak the truth, and the oath to obey Pevara) cause her to choke until Pevara tells her she doesn't have to lie.

 

I just don't get why they want to attack when they are hardly any use to them.

Granted they can do many other things but the main core of damane is to fight. All of the other usefull things the Damane do for the Seanchan back home like, finding ore, making terangreal, etc. are lost talents to most Aes Sedai here.

 

It's not about what they gain from doing this, its about what they achieve in doing this. Their social mandate is that Aes Sedai are the single greatest risk to peace and wellbeing (probably greater in their minds than the shadow since the Shadowspawn are wiped out, and thus the shadow exists only as an esoteric threat to them).

 

When that point was reinforced by the use of a new and powerful Aes Sedai weapon (which is what they read the destruction of the gateway at the Kin's farm to be) it became imperative to end the Aes Sedai threat sooner rather than later.

 

This isn't about gain, its about doing what right. And what's right to them is to end the Aes Sedai threat to the world.

[Nimic]

+ theres bragging rights.

No one has taken down the White Tower since it started. Its been seiged and seiged and seiged before, but has never fallen. (I think they stated even artur hawking failed to take the WT) The only other place that would have been near as important to take down has already fallen to rand... Its a great demorilizing factor. If Artur Hawking couldn't do it, with a united 'world' (think Rome), What chance do you have of defending against a force that just took them down?

 

This is true as far as almost everyone knows, but it's not completely true. Tar Valon has been breached several times, and part of the White Tower has even been looted and burned.

[SinisterDeath]

No, they don't die. What you are thinking of is when Pevara commands the ferret to admit that she is lying about the Reds involvement with Logain. The conflicting oaths (the oath to speak the truth, and the oath to obey Pevara) cause her to choke until Pevara tells her she doesn't have to lie.

 

Isn't there some kind of 'pain feedback' from a damane if they don't do what the sul'dam tells them to?

We already know that the 'empress' enjoys watching damane die, by holding there own chains... Aka you get a sul'dam to constantly command the aes sedia to kill someone, or to 'lie' and they'd keep feeling pain (presumeably from the sul'dam) which theoretically could cause death?

 

This is true as far as almost everyone knows, but it's not completely true. Tar Valon has been breached several times, and part of the White Tower has even been looted and burned.

Never fallen isn't the same as being breached/looted. It has to do with control. No one besides the Aes Sedia have had it under control before.

[algspkr]

No, they don't die. What you are thinking of is when Pevara commands the ferret to admit that she is lying about the Reds involvement with Logain. The conflicting oaths (the oath to speak the truth, and the oath to obey Pevara) cause her to choke until Pevara tells her she doesn't have to lie.

 

Isn't there some kind of 'pain feedback' from a damane if they don't do what the sul'dam tells them to?

We already know that the 'empress' enjoys watching damane die, by holding there own chains... Aka you get a sul'dam to constantly command the aes sedia to kill someone, or to 'lie' and they'd keep feeling pain (presumeably from the sul'dam) which theoretically could cause death?

The feedback comes form a sul'dam actively using the a'dam.  If the damane disobeys nothing happens until the sul'dam does something.

 

As for the empress killing damane, that is when she makes a man put on the bracelet.  If he can channel or can be taught to they both die in agony.