Fun Question - What Would Happen If Mat Diced/Gambled Against Another Tave'ran??

[Thorn]

including cards and horses.

It works better with dice than cards, but doesn't work at all with horses. Ta'veren can affect non-random things (like changing what someone is going to say), Mat's luck can't. . . . .

But there's just so little evidence outside Mat's suppositions & timing to suspect the dagger as a source of luck

No reason at all to think it's ta'veren. There's nothing against it being the dagger, and it has more for it than anything else. That makes it the best theory we have.

 

Just because you assert something over and over again doesn't make it true. Everything you're going on is based on a few quotes where Mat is stating his own perceptions, and there are other points in the books where Mat asserts that the dice do relate to his ta'veren status.

 

The Pattern *could* twist even every horse race -- but it doesn't need to, because Mat wins those just on his knowledge of horses, which he has from his father -- and that's *also* part of the Pattern.

 

Rand's ta'veren luck *does* work the same way -- when he relies on it and makes deliberately random choices, such as the Portal Stone to Rhuidean.(It also does more than that, like the fish falling in patterns etc., but that's because Rand is more ta'veren by far than Mat is). There's even a quote in one of the early books where someone (I think Moiraine? maybe Loial?) describes Hawkwing's ta'veren nature as warping chance so that sometimes every flip of a coin went his way.

 

edit: it's in The Dragon Reborn:

 

 Moiraine said, "No one knows about ta'veren as strong as Rand... Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta'veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawking was in no way as strong as Rand.

    "It is said," Lan put in, "There were times when people in the same room as Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times."

 

 

8, Jarra, 115

 

Ta'veren luck is specifically mentioned as impacting tosses of the dice and turns of the cards, and Mat's luck works on both of those. Mat's luck is ta'veren luck.

 

And Mat's ta'veren status does sometimes impact what people are going to say. Did you read Knife of Dreams? What happens at the end, when the dice in Mat's head finally stop rolling? Who does he marry?

[jcb2inhbgpa]

it would be a good game to see

[Mr Ares]

Just because you assert something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Just because you deny it, doesn't make it false.

Everything you're going on is based on a few quotes

Exactly. Quotes. Evidence from the books.

Mat asserts that the dice do relate to his ta'veren status.

Such as?

 

The Pattern *could* twist even every horse race -- but it doesn't need to, because Mat wins those just on his knowledge of horses, which he has from his father -- and that's *also* part of the Pattern.

But nothing to do with ta'veren. Or luck. Mat's luck doesn't affect horses, ta'veren could.

 

Ta'veren luck is specifically mentioned as impacting tosses of the dice and turns of the cards, and Mat's luck works on both of those. Mat's luck is ta'veren luck.

There is nothing to support that. Mat's luck is better with dice than with cards, separate from ta'veren, doesn't affect horses, can't change what people were about to say.

 

And Mat's ta'veren status does sometimes impact what people are going to say.

Ta'veren, yes. Luck, no.

dice in Mat's head

Not ta'veren.

[The Dirty Landry]

Mat mentions in TFoH that "A man ought to be able to find a profit in something like that, having events twist themselves around him. Rand certainly had, in a way. He himself had never noticed anything twisting around him except the fall of dice."

 

Is that an exact quote? What chapter is it from?

 

Yes its at the beginning of Chapter 42 "Before the Arrow."

 

Ares: Its irrelevant, huh? Really? Its more relevant than any quote you gave. Wow.

[Mr Ares]

Ares: Its irrelevant, huh? Really?

Really. It's not relevant in the slightest. What is relevant is that Mat always considers his luck and ta'veren separate, and that the luck didn't come until after SL (quite specifically, not in the TR).

[Thorn]

What is relevant is that Mat always considers his luck and ta'veren separate,

 

But, he doesn't.

 

"Your scheme do entail a good deal of luck," Teslyn said, not for the first time. . .

 

Mandevwin's bay stampted a hoof, and he patted the animal's neck with a gauntleted hand. "You cannot deny there is battle luck, when you find a weakness in your enemy's lines that you never expected, that should not be there, when you find him arrayed to defend against attack from the north only you are coming from the south. Battle luck rides on your shoulder, my lord. I have seen it."

 

. . .

 

In truth, he was depending on luck to some extent.

 

. . . .

 

Mat drew breath. Now that had to be ta'veren work. They could hardly have been better placed if he had given the order himself.

 

From Knife of Dreams.

 

There are points where Mat attributes his luck to "ta'veren work." They're just later in the series, after Mat has come to terms with his ta'veren status and is no longer trying to deny it.

 

[Mr Ares]

But, he doesn't.

Something you have yet to back up. The quote you provide does nothing to support you.

There are points where Mat attributes his luck to "ta'veren work."

He attributes ta'veren work to ta'veren work, but considers this distinct from luck.

They're just later in the series, after Mat has come to terms with his ta'veren status and is no longer trying to deny it.

No. He still considers the two to be separate even by the most recent books. In the most recent books, he accepts he is lucky, he accepts he is ta'veren, but he does not accept that his luck is ta'veren.

[Blackhoof]

You know, Ares, once I heard of a duck that looked like a duck and acted like a duck, only according to you, it barked instead of quaking, does that make the duck a dog, or does that make you crazy?

 

The point is, you say that mat thinks his luck and taveren are separate, but you fail to produce a single quote. Why is that, Mr. Ares?

 

If, like you say, his luck isn't taveren, and the dice aren't taveren, then what is it that Mats taveren does? It certainly doesn't make weddings happen or bizzare deaths occur.

 

Ares: Its irrelevant, huh? Really?

Really. It's not relevant in the slightest. What is relevant is that Mat always considers his luck and ta'veren separate, and that the luck didn't come until after SL (quite specifically, not in the TR).

.

 

It's perfectly relevent; Mat says that he had never noticved anything twisting (as in, taveren twisting) around him escept for the dice. Landry has just blown your "Mat thinks taveren and luck are separate" evidence out of the water; and if you have a quote where mat says they are separate, then that proves that he is wrong on one of those counts, which means that he can be wrong, so he could, in all possibility, be wrong on the "starting at SL" quote.

 

 

Personally, I think that the Pattern led Mat to get the dagger, so he would have holes in his memory, so that he would have room for the past memories that he hs now. The luck is taveren. End of story.

 

There are a few hints here and there that Mat's luck *might* come from the dagger

And none at all that it might come from ta'veren.

 

But there's just so little evidence outside Mat's suppositions & timing to suspect the dagger as a source of luck

No reason at all to think it's ta'veren.

 

And here I was, thinking that you at least saw the numerous lines were people state that Taveren brings luck and warps chance... oh, well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

The point is, you say that mat thinks his luck and taveren are separate, but you fail to produce a single quote. Why is that, Mr Ares?

Because I can't be arsed to look them up. And it's not like anyone actually asked to see one. "At first, he had believed it was his luck spreading, or perhaps being ta'veren finally coming in for something useful." WH 15. Luck and ta'veren separate.

 

what is it that Mats taveren does?

Same thing any other ta'veren does. People follow him. His bargain with the Sea Folk in Ebou Dar. Things other than winning at cards, stuff that isn't completely random turning in his favour.

 

Mat says that he had never noticved anything twisting (as in, taveren twisting) around him escept for the dice. Landry has just blown your "Mat thinks taveren and luck are separate" evidence out of the water

Nothing has been blown out of the water. It in no way proves that his luck and ta'veren are the same, nor is it him saying his luck and ta'veren are the same. It is not relevant.

then that proves that he is wrong on one of those counts

There is no contradiction. He does not say his luck and ta'veren are the same. Ever. Find a quote where he does. And there is still no reason t dismiss the starting at SL quote.

 

Personally, I think that the Pattern led Mat to get the dagger, so he would have holes in his memory, so that he would have room for the past memories that he hs now. The luck is taveren. End of story.

Maybe the Pattern led him to pick up the dagger (ta'veren could do that), but it doesn't follow that the luck is ta'veren. If he gets luck from ta'veren, ad ta'veren made him get the dagger that gave him luck, the luck and ta'veren are still separate. You have provided no reason to think otherwise.

 

And here I was, thinking that you at least saw the numerous lines were people state that Taveren brings luck and warps chance... oh, well.

But Mat's luck works differently. It only affects random things in his favour. Ta'veren can affect non-random things, and does so in ways that might be against or neutral to the ta'veren.

 

Once I heard of a duck that had four legs and a wagging tail, said woof, didn't have wings, didn't have feathers, and didn't, all in all, resemble a duck much at all. In fact, most people didn't think it was a duck, but a few diehard crackpots insisted that's what it was. Like most sensible people, I just thought it was a dog.

[Blackhoof]

what is it that Mats taveren does?

Same thing any other ta'veren does. People follow him. His bargain with the Sea Folk in Ebou Dar. Things other than winning at cards, stuff that isn't completely random turning in his favour.

 

Taveren are lucky, genius, so is mat.

 

Nothing has been blown out of the water. It in no way proves that his luck and ta'veren are the same, nor is it him saying his luck and ta'veren are the same. It is not relevant.

 

It does, too. He says, "the only taveren stuff i've noticed happening around me is dicing/gambling, (which is connected to luck, in case you didn't know).

 

There is no contradiction. He does not say his luck and ta'veren are the same. Ever. Find a quote where he does. And there is still no reason t dismiss the starting at SL quote.

 

There is a contradiction because he says that his luck is a product of taveren twisting.

 

Personally, I think that the Pattern led Mat to get the dagger, so he would have holes in his memory, so that he would have room for the past memories that he hs now. The luck is taveren. End of story.

 

Maybe the Pattern led him to pick up the dagger (ta'veren could do that), but it doesn't follow that the luck is ta'veren. If he gets luck from ta'veren, ad ta'veren made him get the dagger that gave him luck, the luck and ta'veren are still separate. You have provided no reason to think otherwise.

 

The luck is taveren. The dagger caused the holes in his memory, end of story, not his luck.

 

And here I was, thinking that you at least saw the numerous lines were people state that Taveren brings luck and warps chance... oh, well.

But Mat's luck works differently. It only affects random things in his favour. Ta'veren can affect non-random things, and does so in ways that might be against or neutral to the ta'veren.

 

Once again, Taveren are lucky, if there are three ducks but one of them has a verbal disorder, so can't quak, but the other two can, but the non-quaking one still does everything else a duck does, it just makes a  funny gurgling sound indstead of quaking. is the non-quaker really that different? or does it suddenly become a dog, according to your "theory".

 

Once I heard of a duck that had four legs and a wagging tail, said woof, didn't have wings, didn't have feathers, and didn't, all in all, resemble a duck much at all. In fact, most people didn't think it was a duck, but a few diehard crackpots insisted that's what it was. Like most sensible people, I just thought it was a dog.

 

Wow, you must have a funny idea of what 'sensible' means, then, considering that only about 1 or 2 people in this entire thread believe in the dagger theory, or at least those that have been brave enough to rear their heads and put forth their own, feeble support for the dagger theory, i, like most sensible people, accept that the duck is a duck, and not a dog, like you so persistently claim.

[Lobododragao]

well, just a thought, but considering the phrasing used it should pretty much debunk the dagger theory and the taverene theory...

 

    DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal [only ter'angreal, actually - Terez] out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

 

[Thorn]

well, just a thought, but considering the phrasing used it should pretty much debunk the dagger theory and the taverene theory...

. . .

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

 

 

My interpretation of that quote is that Jordan's talking about the *degree* of luck and the mechanism behind it. Ta'veren luck and "The Dark One's Own Luck" both are the result of twisting the Pattern -- that's what "luck" is in the Wheel of Time cosmology, it's something twisting the Pattern to your benefit. We know that ta'veren are the mechanism the Pattern uses to do this to twist itself; we know that the Dark One's touch on the Pattern can have a similar effect, by warping the Pattern negatively. So Mat's luck is similar to the Dark One's Own Luck in the same way that the Creator is similar to the Dark One; inverse and equal, and therefore similar.

 

I could be wrong, but either way, the "in a way" in Jordan's quote makes it so open to interpretation that you can argue it to fit any theory, really.

[Lobododragao]

fair enough, though I would stick with it debunking the dagger theory in the least.

[Cillian]

It's perfectly relevent; Mat says that he had never noticved anything twisting (as in, taveren twisting) around him escept for the dice. Landry has just blown your "Mat thinks taveren and luck are separate" evidence out of the water; and if you have a quote where mat says they are separate, then that proves that he is wrong on one of those counts, which means that he can be wrong, so he could, in all possibility, be wrong on the "starting at SL" quote.

 

No he didn't. Everyone seems to have ignored the first part of his quote:

 

Mat mentions in TFoH that "A man ought to be able to find a profit in something like that, having events twist themselves around him. Rand certainly had, in a way. He himself had never noticed anything twisting around him except the fall of dice."

 

He thinks he isn't profiting from being ta'veren. But he obviously is profiting from his luck.

i.e. He still thinks the two things are separate at that point.

 

His luck twists random in his favor.

He wasn't saying it was "ta'veren twisting" in the last sentence, just "twisting".

 

And as per Mr Ares quote;

"At first, he had believed it was his luck spreading, or perhaps being ta'veren finally coming in for something useful." WH 15.

 

Mat's been consistent in his thinking of the two as separate.

 

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

"In a way".

We all know Aridhol became as dark as the Shadow itself while fighting it.

What does Mat have to do with the Aridhol? That's right, the dagger.

It's a much more simple/logical explanation than this elaborate thing:

My interpretation of that quote is that Jordan's talking about the *degree* of luck and the mechanism behind it. Ta'veren luck and "The Dark One's Own Luck" both are the result of twisting the Pattern -- that's what "luck" is in the Wheel of Time cosmology, it's something twisting the Pattern to your benefit. We know that ta'veren are the mechanism the Pattern uses to do this to twist itself; we know that the Dark One's touch on the Pattern can have a similar effect, by warping the Pattern negatively. So Mat's luck is similar to the Dark One's Own Luck in the same way that the Creator is similar to the Dark One; inverse and equal, and therefore similar.

 

You should be an Aes Sedai  :D

[Lobododragao]

 

 

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

"In a way".

We all know Aridhol became as dark as the Shadow itself while fighting it.

What does Mat have to do with the Aridhol? That's right, the dagger.

 

 

not really sure if this is saying you are for the dagger thing, but... true in a way that he does have the dark ones luck doesn't seem to me that it could have anything to do with aridhol considering that yes they are both evil but they are different things as stated in the books, aridhol was evil but was compeltely against the dark one. I don't know, just the way I interpreted it. You are right about the "in a way.." it does leave it a little too open for that to be used as an arguing standpoint, so ... my bad :( I'll just go back to holding my hands over my ears and closing my eyes and humming ... its all just a simple little story :D

[Mr Ares]

Once again, Taveren are lucky

So was Mat, before becoming ta'veren. So are male channelers. So is Fain. There are other sources of luck besides ta'veren. So you can't say that just because Mat is ta'veren, that is automatically the cause of his luck when it didn't start when he became ta'veren, and it doesn't fit what we know of ta'veren.

if there are three ducks

But one of them is actually a swan, then there really aren't three ducks, there are two ducks and a swan.

 

Wow, you must have a funny idea of what 'sensible' means, then, considering that only about 1 or 2 people in this entire thread

A fair few people support the dagger. Maybe more so than support ta'veren, but truth is not decided by majority vote. The evidence says it's the dagger, not ta'veren. Anyone who disagrees isn't one of those sensible people.

 

well, just a thought, but considering the phrasing used it should pretty much debunk the dagger theory

Not only does that not debunk the dagger, it actually convinced one former supporter of ta'veren to support the dagger instead.

[Thorn]

Not only does that not debunk the dagger, it actually convinced one former supporter of ta'veren to support the dagger instead.

 

Question for you, Ares: what would it take to convince you that Mat's luck was derived from his ta'veren status and not from the Dagger?

 

We aren't going to get any more quotes from RJ, so what could happen in the books that would make you admit there was even a chance the dagger theory was wrong?

 

I've said what would sway me: solid evidence from the books that showed Aridhol's taint could cause Luck-type effects, independently of the Dark One's Touch on Fain. Someone talking about Mordeth's history, perhaps, or a Fain POV where he mentioned luck or Pattern-twisting as a benefit from Aridhol/Mordeth/"not DO" specifically. Either one of those would make the Dagger theory *much* more persuasive.

 

There's a new book coming out soon, after all. There might be evidence in it that impacts this theory one way or another. What would or could make you change your mind?

 

I'm tempted to go dig up the Wheel of Time RPG and see if the character stats for Mat, Rand, Perrin, and Fain shed any light on this :P

[Lobododragao]

oy! I specifically stated after my post that I was wrong mr. ares, you didn't need to bring me into it :(

[algspkr]

There is a quote, I do not remember where when someone (Loial I think) is talking about Hawking and says that sometimes Hawking won every deal of cards and toss of dice.

[Downplay]

It would make a difference if Mat gambled against Rand as he is not as strongly ta'veren. We only see more instances of Mats because he relies more heavily on random games of chance. We see rand mat and perrin all benefitting from luck throughout all of the books. Mats story just focuses on his luck more

[Mr Ares]

what would it take to convince you that Mat's luck was derived from his ta'veren status and not from the Dagger?

Evidence. We have been given no reason to accept it, beyond a thousand year old rumour.

 

There is a quote, I do not remember where when someone (Loial I think) is talking about Hawking and says that sometimes Hawking won every deal of cards and toss of dice.

It was from noted scholar Lan. A thousand year old rumour, as I said.

 

We see rand mat and perrin all benefitting from luck throughout all of the books. Mats story just focuses on his luck more

And Mat's luck isn't ta'veren.

[Thorn]

I just realized we actually know what happens when Mat gambles with another ta'veren. There's a passage in the books where it happens.

 

"Do we have to do it this way?" Mat said. "What do you have against riding?" Rand only looked at him, and he shrugged uncomfortably. "Oh, burn me. If you're trying to decide . . ." Taking both horses' reins in one hand, he dug a coin from his pocket, a gold Tar Valon mark, and sighed.  "It would be the same coin, wouldn't it." He rolled the coin across the backs of his fingers. "I'm . . lucky sometimes, Rand. Let my luck choose. Head, the one that points to your right; flame, the other. What do you say?"

 

"This is the most ridiculous" Egwene began, but Moiraine silenced her with a touch on the arm.

 

Rand nodded. "Why not?" Egwene muttered something; all he caught were "men" and "boys," but it did not sound a compliment.

 

The coin spun into the air off Mat's thumb, gleaming dully in the sun. At its peak, Mat snatched it back and slapped it down on the back of his other hand, then hesitated. "It's a bloody thing to be trusting to the toss of a coin, Rand."

 

Rand laid his palm down on one of the symbols without looking. "This one," he said. "You chose this one."

 

Mat peeked at the coin and blinked. "You're right. How did you know?"

 

"It has to work for me sooner or later." None of them understood -- he could see that -- but it did not matter.

 

When Rand and Mat both gamble, they get the same result, and both win, because they are both ta'veren.

[Blackhoof]

Indeed. But it appears as though there is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt where Mats luck comes from. Hopefully we will have more light on this situation in the next books.