Old Blood/Finns/Tav'eraness-Ananlysis :What Makes Mat/Rand How They Are?

[The Fisher King]

Fun Question: What would happen if Mat diced against another Tave'ran???!

 

 

Anyway, Ive often wondered...Mat and Rand are very complex in alot of the misunderstandings in just what causes them to be the way they are.

 

 

I guess the FULL List of Factors that Make Mat Mat and Rand Rand really should read as:

 

 

1 What was done to them in the Rhuidean-Finns Doorway...2 Being a Tav'eran...3 Having The Manatherenese 'Old Blood' running through them ... 4 Having (or NOT, having, as I argue - sorry, lol, ill never be convinced on this one as there is still ZERO Evidence to support it, despite the HUNDREDS of Threads arguing for it, here, over the years, lol) 5 Multiple Souls (Another concept, that, at least in respect to Randland, has never had any REAL evidence supplied to support its existence or validity)...6 Living Past Lives...7 Reborn Lives Spun Back out by The Wheel...(And please remember, just as The Finns 'Gift' of Memories did NOT make Mat a General, 'Past Lives' are NOT the same as the Lives respun out by The Wheel...Nor do they contain Multiple Souls...)

 

 

I agonized for years reading all the mis-understandings of these concepts of whats going on with Mat...Rand...and, to a lesser extent...Perrin (who you have to add Wolfbrotherness to as maybe the '8th' factor)...WAIT!...Actually, it would still be only the 7th and not the 8th Potential Factor for Perrin since he, unlike Rand and Mat, did NOT go through the FinnDoorway...though HE, in the tradeoff of factors, DOES have the Blood of a WolfBrother whereas Rand and Mat do NOT!!! Hmmm...Veeeeeery interesting now that I think on it...this could change everything...

 

 

Thats The 7 Most Important Factors that make them 'How' they are - and ive never understood why so many readers misunderstand all this...its always seemed pretty simple to me...

 

 

(For example, people don't get that Rand being insane and LLT NOT being a 'real' voice inside his head have nothing to do with each other...or, for another example, the number of fans who never understood that Mat was 'Mr Kickbut General Guy' looong before the 'Doorway' in Rhuidean.)

 

 

But, Mat's amazing results when he gambles may well be the most egregious misunderstanding among fans...

 

 

Regarding the often Amazing Results of Mat's Exploits, People usually marvel ans shake their heads and wonder...''Where does it come from??? Mat's 'Luck'??? ... Old Blood??? ... Tav'eraness??? ... 'Gifts from  the Rhuidean Doorway???... - Some, None? A combination???''

 

 

Uh, Nooooo, lol.

 

 

And people don't understand that its really not.

 

 

To put it simply, Mat's amazing results at gambling come ONLY from his 'Luck' and Mat's 'Luck' is 100% solely derived from his being probably the 3rd (behind Rand and Perrin) most powerful Tav'eran since Hawkwing.

 

 

This is why Mat doesn't lose at cards or dice to 'regular folk' (interestingly, however, and paradoxically, and ironically, and inversely, games that do NOT rely on chance are games that often seem to overwhelm him - its why he has never beaten Thom (a logical master) at a game of Chess...Errrrr Go....Errrrrr...'Stones lol ;) )

 

 

Mat's Luck at Gambling comes from his being a Taver'an. Hes NOT 'Lucky'. He never has been. (the fact that he has never before been lucky in his life is even often remarked upon - most notably in Book 3, TDR.)

 

 

But, what if Mat diced against Rand or Perrin?

 

 

Mat's sneaky, but, imo, the chances of him having his head handed to him rise exponentially.

 

 

What do you think would happen?

 

 

Fish

 

 

P.S. - DANG lol!!! Spent too much time on Mat and we have't even hit all the misunderstandings about Rand's 'Mental State' yet - whats causing it nad what is and is not 'real' and what the answers mean. Also, another concept that I always marvelled at the high number of folks who misunderstood Rand's situation which is, in truth, rather simple.

 

 

Rand = ONE Soul, ONE Person, TWO Lives, Two Memories, ONE Case of VERY VERY REAL Insanity.

 

 

There, that wasn't so hard, was it lol??? ;-)

 

 

Thoughts?

[Thorn]

Good points but it might be better if you reorganized your arguments a bit, with bullet points and so forth.

 

The main point of confusion I see are people who think that Mat's extra memories from the *finn are evidence of his having been born in that era -- that Matt lived a zillion lives between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing, and the *finn reawakened those memories.

 

But we know that isn't the case because of several different points where it's amde clear Mat has the memories of many different people in his head -- for example, I think sometimes he can remember particular battles from different points of view.

 

It is complicated by the "old blood" issue -- Mat clearly remembered *some* battles through his ancestor's eyes, as per the battle he remembers in Tar Valon after being healed of the dagger.

[The Fisher King]

Thorn!

 

Exactly! (And I WILL try to make my Posts more visually appealling lol!)

 

But, its like I always say...its in like the very first or second chapter of TEOTW where Mat says, and I quote, ''I still like battles.''

 

 

That was even before His trip to SL where he leads the charge in the battle against the Fades and speaks Old Tongue (even then he was speaking it) and Moraine Damodred explains it as being caused by his 'Old Blood'

 

 

And, remember, Moraine can NOT Lie!!! ;)

 

 

Fish

[Germs]

I thank you for your rant. It was rather hard to follow though; I guess that is the nature of a rant.

[The Fisher King]

Germs, yeah....believe it or not, I really am working on cutting out the 'Stram of Conciusness/Rant' aspect of My Posts and efforting to condense them into mnore visually organized models...

 

 

Like I said...With MANY characters, but mostly Mat and Rand, the issues of Mats Affinity For Battles, his Lick, His Memories and his Battle Knowledge, as well as Rand's Memories and Interactions with LTT, combining with the question of how 'Real' they are and if he is or is not sane and how those things are related...in conjunction with: Rhuidaean Finn Doorway...Old Blood...Multiple Souls...Resppun Lives By The Wheel...The Effect of being a Ta'veran and other factors has always been a subject that has baffled me when I read all the  messed-up theories and 'answers' concerning the relationships of said such pertaining to the subject.

 

 

I like to think I cleared up most of the long-time misconceptions on it all in my original post in this thread without missing a beat...

 

 

Fish

[Cillian]

Fun Question: What would happen if Mat diced against another Tave'ran???!

 

He would most likely win, unless the Pattern needed the other guy to win.

 

3 Having The Manatherenese 'Old Blood' running through them

 

Rand is not the blood of Manetheren.

 

4 Having (or NOT, having, as I argue - sorry, lol, ill never be convinced on this one as there is still ZERO Evidence to support it, despite the HUNDREDS of Threads arguing for it, here, over the years, lol)

 

What?

 

5 Multiple Souls (Another concept, that, at least in respect to Randland, has never had any REAL evidence supplied to support its existence or validity)...6 Living Past Lives...7 Reborn Lives Spun Back out by The Wheel...(And please remember, just as The Finns 'Gift' of Memories did NOT make Mat a General, 'Past Lives' are NOT the same as the Lives respun out by The Wheel...Nor do they contain Multiple Souls...)

 

That was very incoherent.

 

Regarding the often Amazing Results of Mat's Exploits, People usually marvel ans shake their heads and wonder...''Where does it come from??? Mat's 'Luck'??? ... Old Blood??? ... Tav'eraness??? ... 'Gifts from  the Rhuidean Doorway???... - Some, None? A combination???''

Uh, Nooooo, lol.

And people don't understand that its really not.

To put it simply, Mat's amazing results at gambling come ONLY from his 'Luck' and Mat's 'Luck' is 100% solely derived from his being probably the 3rd (behind Rand and Perrin) most powerful Tav'eran since Hawkwing.

 

There's a monster thread on this forum concerning this. Mat's Luck has nothing to do with him being ta'veren. It acts differently to how we know ta'veren works.

 

This is why Mat doesn't lose at cards or dice to 'regular folk'

 

Incorrect. He does loose at dice. Or should I say, he wins a lot more than he looses even when his luck is low.

He looses at cards too, because his luck has little to know affect on them, they aren't random.

 

 

Hes NOT 'Lucky'. He never has been. (the fact that he has never before been lucky in his life is even often remarked upon - most notably in Book 3, TDR.)

 

Totally Incorrect.

Your memory seems very shoddy. I suggest you re-read the series.

 

But, what if Mat diced against Rand or Perrin?

Mat's sneaky, but, imo, the chances of him having his head handed to him rise exponentially.

 

Mat's luck has nothing to do with ta'veren. Rand is far more powerfully ta'veren than Mat but doesn't exhibit anything remotely like the luck Mat has.

 

What do you think would happen?

 

He probably win, like I said, unless the Pattern need the other to win for some reason.

 

But, its like I always say...its in like the very first or second chapter of TEOTW where Mat says, and I quote, ''I still like battles.''

 

You quoted wrong.

TEOTW - Chpt 4 - The Gleeman

"Battles interest me" - Mat

 

That was even before His trip to SL where he leads the charge in the battle against the Fades and speaks Old Tongue (even then he was speaking it) and Moraine Damodred explains it as being caused by his 'Old Blood'

 

Mat did not lead the charge against the Trollocs and the Fade, Lan did.

The Old Blood runs strong in Egwene too, after that battle she refers to what Mat was shouting;

"When you shouted, I thought - just for a minute - I thought I understood you. But it's all gone now"

 

Very little of what you have said in this thread is at all accurate and it's leading you to wrong conclusions.

[White_star]

3 Having The Manatherenese 'Old Blood' running through them

 

Rand is not the blood of Manetheren.

Yep, he's half Aiel and half Andorian Royalty (though technically he is an illegitimate son of Tigraine so would his blood still be considered "royal"?)(Also, would he still be 'Old Blood' but not Manetheren?)

[Thorn]

Mat's luck has nothing to do with ta'veren. Rand is far more powerfully ta'veren than Mat but doesn't exhibit anything remotely like the luck Mat has.

 

Rand also doesn't gamble nearly as much as Mat does, so there are fewer opportunities for him to be lucky in the same fashion. Furthermore, the pattern "needs" Mat to be generally considered "luckier" -- it's part of what motivates and builds his army, the idea that he has personal Luck motivates his troops.  When Rand does gamble -- like when he picks the symbol for Rhuidean off the portal stone in TSR -- he's just as lucky as Mat.

 

It's ta'veren. The other candidate is the Dagger, and Fain has shown no signs of similar "luck".

[Mr. Dragon]

This is all discussed in that other thread people :P, just so you know, im for the ta'vern theory.

[Mr Ares]

3 Having The Manatherenese 'Old Blood' running through them

Rand doesn't.

4 Having (or NOT, having, as I argue - sorry, lol, ill never be convinced on this one as there is still ZERO Evidence to support it, despite the HUNDREDS of Threads arguing for it, here, over the years, lol)

Having, eh? Very persuasive.

 

HE DOES have the Blood of a WolfBrother

There is nothing to support wolfbrotherhood being in the blood. It might be purely a soul thing.

 

Regarding the often Amazing Results of Mat's Exploits, People usually marvel ans shake their heads and wonder...''Where does it come from?

Unless they've read the 40-plus page thread we've got discussing it, or any of the previous times it's come up, and been shown that the theory with the most support (the only theory with any support) is that it came from the dagger.

 

This is why Mat doesn't lose at cards or dice to 'regular folk'

Yes, he does.

Mat's Luck at Gambling comes from his being a Taver'an.

Nothing to support that.

 

(the fact that he has never before been lucky in his life is even often remarked upon - most notably in Book 3, TDR.)

You think it's one way, but it's the other.

 

But we know that isn't the case because of several different points where it's amde clear Mat has the memories of many different people in his head -- for example, I think sometimes he can remember particular battles from different points of view.

Also, RJ said they came from people who went through the doorways/ToG.

 

This is all discussed in that other thread people :P, just so you know, im for the ta'vern theory.

Then you're wrong. Mat thinks of the two as separate.

 

It's ta'veren.

It's not. The timing doesn't fit. It behaves differently. Mat thinks it's different to ta'veren. There is no reason to think it's ta'veren.

The other candidate is the Dagger, and Fain has shown no signs of similar "luck".

Aside from being referenced as lucky, that doesn't actually matter. After all, Mat hasn't demonstrated an ability to torture Fades or create Illusions of the recently dead.