Stupidity: Attacking Forsaken with the power

[magnutz]

One (among other) thought ocurred to me as I listened to Winter's Heart.

 

Why are the Good Guys less than incompetent when attacking Forsaken/anyone who can use the Power? Why do they always use weaves that has to hit directly? Why don't they rip the ground apart around them and make rocks fly and bash the bad guy's brains in?? And.. oh lord... They can't be that ignorant... only Elsa? uses her brains a little when she roasts O'sangar and that hill he hid on.  ??? ::)

 

What are your thought on Stupidity when attacking Forsaken with the Power?

[richnewton82]

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[magnutz]

I think it is lack of experience. How often do they get to brattle anybody with the power?

 

I thought they knew how hard it would be to beat anyone who is skilled and powerful. If they act with intelligence they would send a rock, boulder, stick, tree horse.. anything that can't be "sliced" as easily as the weaves can be. Ok, so a rock can be blown away and a tree burned to cinders.. but if you throw a couple of rocks, a handful of trees and open the ground under the bad guy's feet... that should do the trick..

 

And what about the woman who suddenly steps out from behind a tree - in Winter's Heart - and starts talking to the good guys. Why don't they just kill her? Why do they act as if it was normal for a scantily dressed woman to come strolling through the forest that close to Shadar Logoth (Shadal Logoth seems to be very very large. Much too large for anyone to stumble upon by accident.... ;)

 

oh well.. ;) Just some thoughts...

[richnewton82]

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[magnutz]

I think that there were probably hundreds or thousands or more channelers who went over to the Dark during the war of power. The entire conflict lasted quite a long time and was at a point when channeling as a whole seemed to be more common and channelers themselves more adept. Of all of those dreadlords, 13 alone still exist. Probably a mixture of strongest and most adept. Those fighting the Forsaken at Shadar Logoth are basically children by comparison. The only reason they even had a chance was because they formed circles and had terangreal/angreal/sangreal and overwhelming numbers to boot. Otherwise it would have been a route.

 

What I really wonder is.. if Taim is a darkfriend and the Black Tower is so obviously infested with Darkfriends who can travel no less, why didn't the DO order a full out assault? Sending a handful of forsaken wasn't a guaranteed win but sending a few dozen channelers as well? That would have been goodgame for Rand.

 

Maybe the Forsaken ordered the "lesser" members of their infamous come-together to hang back. It was all for the glory to go to Shadar Logoth. All of the Forsaken who came there thought of taking Rand on their own (Except Moghedien, naturally.). That is how Evil works in almost all fiction. No unity, and that really paves the goat track for our Shepherd... ;) Imagine all Forsaken united, doing stuff for the Group, not for 100% personal gain... I'd say that would be "Game Over" quite quickly.. for the Good Guys. ;)

[Arath Faringal]

I thought they knew how hard it would be to beat anyone who is skilled and powerful. If they act with intelligence they would send a rock, boulder, stick, tree horse.. anything that can't be "sliced" as easily as the weaves can be. Ok, so a rock can be blown away and a tree burned to cinders.. but if you throw a couple of rocks, a handful of trees and open the ground under the bad guy's feet... that should do the trick..

 

I think you vastly overestimate most people's strength in the power.  Picking things up with the power is one of the most difficult acts, according to Siuan anyway.  She was able to lift a few times her own weight, but lifting something that heavy is quite different from hurling something that large a great distance, especially with any accuracy.  Picking up a tree and throwing it at someone would be insanely difficult.

 

And opening the ground beneath the bad guy's feet didn't exactly work for Moiraine against Aginor.  She even had flames erupting from the pit.

[magnutz]

I thought they knew how hard it would be to beat anyone who is skilled and powerful. If they act with intelligence they would send a rock, boulder, stick, tree horse.. anything that can't be "sliced" as easily as the weaves can be. Ok, so a rock can be blown away and a tree burned to cinders.. but if you throw a couple of rocks, a handful of trees and open the ground under the bad guy's feet... that should do the trick..

 

I think you vastly overestimate most people's strength in the power.  Picking things up with the power is one of the most difficult acts, according to Siuan anyway.  She was able to lift a few times her own weight, but lifting something that heavy is quite different from hurling something that large a great distance, especially with any accuracy.  Picking up a tree and throwing it at someone would be insanely difficult.

 

And opening the ground beneath the bad guy's feet didn't exactly work for Moiraine against Aginor.  She even had flames erupting from the pit.

 

Hmm, you are right, I think. But it could serve as a distraction. If you're busy slicing someone's weaves maybe a rock to the head would work just as nice. :)

You could be prepared to make a tree fall or even unprepared you could let the tree fall. That is not hard to do. Fireball vs. Tree: 10-0. Anyway, I love that chapter in the book eventhough it makes me think.. Even Verin does stupid things... instead of trying to kill the forsaken she wants to shield it.. ;)

[mb]

It seems to me that Rand's protectors were good enough in attacking the Forsaken given their strength and knowledge.

 

About the Forsaken bringing darkfriend channelers and/or uniting, they seemed to have not much time for either.

Also, bringing darkfriend channelers might have revealed the dreadlord identities; which the Dark One might have wanted secret.

 

[Mr Ares]

Why do they always use weaves that has to hit directly?

Well, they've had great success, haven't they?

only Elza uses her brains a little when she roasts Osan'gar and that hill he hid on.

Which would be pretty much thing, only on a lrager scale. Rather than throw a fireball, she roasted the hill.

 

Imagine all Forsaken united, doing stuff for the Group, not for 100% personal gain... I'd say that would be "Game Over" quite quickly.. for the Good Guys. ;)

Imagine the good guys united - they might have won already. It works both ways in this series, as both sides are divided.

 

Aside from the lack of experience and difficulty involved in picking things up and throwing them, bear in mind that not everyone know how to reverse weaves. If you don't do that, they can see the flows. The Chosen have the advantage of greater knowledge of the Power. It's also possible to weave shields against physical assault. So throwing a rock might do no good anyway.

 

Even Verin does stupid things... instead of trying to kill the forsaken she wants to shield it..

Which made sense. She was faced with a woman who was not holding the Source (so she thought...), and could be a great source of information (see Asmo and Moggy), and so tried to take her alive. Once her shield bounced off, she didn't keep trying to shield her, but it made sense at the time to make the attempt.

[magnutz]

I see your points are well made!

 

About Verin and her choice to attempt a shield on the "forsaken" in the woods.. It is typical of a Brown to want knowledge before anything else.. but here I'd say she should have thought: "Hey, I need to help Rand get to TG. I will NOT be a Brown this day. I will be a KILLER!! *BZzZZZzZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzT*!!!" (Great wad of pure lightning/fire/lava/living clay to the face of the forsaken) and so. No drama, just murder. :)

 

But I would have liked a mundane approach to the Forsaken at Shadar Logoth. They weren't expecting circles of Ash'aman/Aes Sedai defending Rand. Sticks and stones would have broken Forsaken bones that night.. ;)

[Kaznen]

Keep in mind Verin didn't know the woman was Grendal, or even a darkfriend.  And until she did the third oath kept her from using lethal force at the beginning.

 

When Grendal did attack Verin and Co. with unseen weaves and things Verin never thought possible with the OP Verin's mind went from "probally forsaken" to "yes, forsaken."

 

When Flinn saw Demedrad(?) he wasn't bound by the oaths and just let loose because he could.

[Mr Ares]

"Hey, I need to help Rand get to TG. I will NOT be a Brown this day. I will be a KILLER!! *BZzZZZzZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzT*!!!"

But a captured Chosen does help in this regard. Either way, the woman would be out of the fight, but if she is a captive they can interrogate her later. Murder, while fun, isn't always the best solution.

Sticks and stones would have broken Forsaken bones that night.. ;)

Unless they felt the weaves and defended themselves against them...

[magnutz]

"Hey, I need to help Rand get to TG. I will NOT be a Brown this day. I will be a KILLER!! *BZzZZZzZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzT*!!!"

But a captured Chosen does help in this regard. Either way, the woman would be out of the fight, but if she is a captive they can interrogate her later. Murder, while fun, isn't always the best solution.

Sticks and stones would have broken Forsaken bones that night.. ;)

Unless they felt the weaves and defended themselves against them...

 

Right, the Forsaken are great assets, wells of information. I guess her choice of attack was a valid one. :) it did feel a bit out of place though. Given the Three Oaths - I'd say that the "Thou shall not blow to smithereens any who dothest not endangerst thine lifest in the firstest placeth..." part of it must have been out of the picture by just them being there. Anyone coming there besides them was likely to be a bad guy.: ;)

 

Anyway, a dead Forsaken is one less Forsaken to worry about. :)

 

I will continue my re-read this night.

 

Until later.