Moiraine post ToG

[Luckers]

Except there is a distinct catagorical distinction. One leaves the channeler able to sense the source, the other does not.

 

 

[Luckers]

Ok weird--my post disapeared.

 

Prior to dwn's most recent comment I said something along the lines of how 'paraphrasing didn't change the relevant information'. I don't actually think that anymore--I thought he was paraphrasing my citations from the glossary, not a distinct one of his own.

 

But still, how utterly random.

[dwn]

(Strange.  I saw the paraphrasing post and was responding to it.  I should have quoted it properly)

 

Except there is a distinct catagorical distinction. One leaves the channeler able to sense the source, the other does not.

 

True, but unfortunately I can't find anything else that expands on the issue.  Semantic differences aside, different injuries to the same... muscle?... could require different healing techniques.  It's certainly feasible that an injury that leaves one unable to even sense the Power would be more difficult to heal.

 

On the subject of Rand's escape, I always read the 'crushing with fists' as the male equivalent to the 'cutting edge' described by Egwene.

 

-- dwn

 

[Lord of the Morning]

on a different, but related note, does anyone recall which viewings of min's moiraine still has to fulfill?  seems to me the only time we've heard some were in tEotW, and i don't have my copy handy. 

[Luckers]

True, but unfortunately I can't find anything else that expands on the issue.  Semantic differences aside, different injuries to the same... muscle?... could require different healing techniques.  It's certainly feasible that an injury that leaves one unable to even sense the Power would be more difficult to heal.

 

Which was rather my point--despite this implication there is evidence that it does not require different methods.

 

On the subject of Rand's escape, I always read the 'crushing with fists' as the male equivalent to the 'cutting edge' described by Egwene.

 

Nynaeve. And male equivelent or not, the function of it is not the same, which is the real gold reality. The 'still being able to sense the source' thing is cited to result from the knife-like weave women use. Even if men use this 'crushing' alternative to still women, it's still more akin to burning out than it is to being stilled by a woman.

 

And, frankly, I doubt it was the male equivelent. The male shield method is descriptively the same as the female, and the female stilling method is an extension of the shield weave. It would be peculiar if the male version came that far but stopped bluntly. Besides, Rand did not set out to still them, he simply siezed flows they were holding in fists of spirit and crushed them.

 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

i have read your post, luckers, on how what rand did at dumai's well's is more accurately described as a forced burning out, and tend to agree with your point of view. however, it is possible that a man can sever a woman differently than the "slicing" we have read about. im only saying this because damer flinn healed the 3 sisters rand stilled, so while they may have been 'burned out', i assume they could still feel the source.

 

now, whether or not "burning out' in setalle anan's case can be healed, we will have to wait and see, and hope rand goes to see mat when he learns he is back with the band, so flinn can have a look at her.

[Luckers]

have read your post, luckers, on how what rand did at dumai's well's is more accurately described as a forced burning out, and tend to agree with your point of view. however, it is possible that a man can sever a woman differently than the "slicing" we have read about. im only saying this because damer flinn healed the 3 sisters rand stilled, so while they may have been 'burned out', i assume they could still feel the source.

 

Again though, that would be the point. Why would you assume that they can still feel the source?

 

It is stated that the method of stilling which results in people feeling the source is the knife-like weave women use. Even if this 'crushing' is the male version of stilling, why would you attribute the same qualities to it? Functionally what it does fits more with burning out than with the female version of stilling--so why should we expect, much less assume, that it will have the same effects as the female version of stilling.

 

 

[dwn]

 

Which was rather my point--despite this implication there is evidence that it does not require different methods.

 

Nynaeve. And male equivelent or not, the function of it is not the same, which is the real gold reality. The 'still being able to sense the source' thing is cited to result from the knife-like weave women use. Even if men use this 'crushing' alternative to still women, it's still more akin to burning out than it is to being stilled by a woman.

 

Actually, I was referring to how Egwene described it in TDR when she stilled Amico.  Nynaeve describes it the same way as well.

 

I don't think we see enough of the three Aes Sedai that Rand stilled to really say one way or the other, and the differences between male and female weaves are (to me) easily enough to explain the different descriptions,

 

As for healing, the simple Aes Sedai healing weave works on everything, but the more complex ones used by Nynaeve and Flinn are more specific to the injury.  Just after Nynaeve heals Siuan and Leane, one of the yellows says something like: "fire would work well in matters of the heart".

 

I'll have to check this tonight, but I believe that in tFoH Rand is able to shield Asmodean (after returning through the gateway with Aviendha) yet later doesn't know how to shield Lanfear at the docks.

 

-- dwn

[Ted M]

I'm actually far more interested in what she knows of goings on in Randland whilst she's been gone than I am in possible changes to her strength in the power.  Obviously, the snakes and foxes have ways of finding out all sorts of information on what's happening (and has happened and will happen), so it's not impossible that she could know more of what's going on than anyone else.  On the other hand, when she comes out, she could know nothing more than she did when she went in.

 

Either way, it'll be interesting as to how things work out.  If she doesn't know any more than she did at the end of tFoH I can't see how her return could make all that much of a difference to the overall situation.  On the other hand, if she knows a great deal more than she did going in it'll be difficult to avoid the impact of her return coming off like deus ex machina.

[Thorn]

Another wrinkle to this:

 

We don't know the full extent of what the Finn can do. It's possible they can 'take" someone's ability in the power in a way separate from stilling them or burning them out, just like they could take people's memories and add them to Mat. Stilling and burning out are accidents of the Power; the *Finn have other abilities, and may be able to do things to channellers that aren't the same as stilling/burning out. 

 

If Moiraine was stilled just by channelling while going through the doorframe, ok then.

 

My guess: Moiraine gained three things that will help her help Rand, BUT didn't ask leavetaking.

 

Possibility: she loses all ability to channel period, and thus gets to have a nice life with Thom Merrillin, all married up.

Possibility: she swapped channelling ability with Lanfear. (I used to hold out for the hope that she and Lanfear had swapped bodies, which would've been hilarious, but then Cyndane would've been recognized at the Cleansing).

[The Dirty Landry]

Logically I think Moiraine's situational awareness will be somewhere in the middle. I have a feeling she won't know much about the particulars of what's going on in Randland, but she'll know something that will help Rand with how to win the Last Battle. It could be something she knows coming out of ToG or something she will find out once she is rescued. We are not even sure how much she learned in the rings that we haven't heard about yet.

 

I think that where Min's viewing comes in is that it will be almost impossible for him to win because he will not be able to figure out how to close the Bore without her. The buildup for her coming back from Min's on how important she is means that it must be something significant that she will provide to Rand.

[sumquy]

I wonder how she is going to respond to Cadsuanne having taken her place. Since Suian thinks Cads is a darkfriend then it is likely that Morraine does too. No question who Rand would choose to keep close to him but I want to read it play out.

[richnewton82]

.

[dwn]

Ok Luckers, pleaes find the quote where Egwene says that Novices don't have to worry about being burned out anymore. Saying "somewhere in TCOT" is BS. Find a quote.

 

I'm not sure where the quote is either at the moment, but it -is- specifically stated that burned out women cannot sense the Power (Guide pg. 22).

 

Egwene's quote doesn't really matter.  She may be wrong and trying to heal someone who's been burned out would be like regrowing a limb.  She may also be perfectly correct.

 

Regardless of all that, the only concrete examples of a woman being reduced in strength are Siuan and Leane; both were stilled then healed with the weave Nynaeve discovered.  That would imply that the same sort of thing happened to Lanfear before she was reincarnated as Cyndane.

 

The FAQ (section 2.3.15) suggests two reasons for the drop in power: 1) it takes a different technique to heal men vs. women (i.e. Nynaeve's weave was different that Flinn's); 2) it takes a man to properly heal a stilled woman, and a woman to properly heal a stilled man.

 

Either way, Flinn hadn't healed Sashalle and company when Cyndane appeared, so it's highly likely that she was restored by a woman using Nynaeve's weave.

 

-- dwn

 

[dwn]

As an addendum:

 

None of this really matters as far as Moiraine is concerned.  She may be whole, burned out, stilled or playing drinking games with the *finn for all we know.

 

-- dwn

[Locke]

Almost everything we guess about Moiraine is going to be speculation considering how little we know about finnland. Moiraine could have gained some useful insight in finnland or she maybe be totally ignorant of randland. She might know a little about randland from randland as well, though I believe the book said somewhere that she had gained little insight on after she went into finnland.  Lanfear OP issue between post and prior finnland might come from losing the angreal suddenly and burning herself out from that too.  This is a mystery that we will just have to wait for one of the upcoming books to shed some more light on.

[Red Hand Man]

Moiraine will most likely lead Mat back to Rand because she knows they should be together.  She is the MOST sensible Aes Sedai of them all.

 

Also, it seems we have forgotten what Thom and Moiraine are possibly the BEST in the world at... the Game of Houses.  Which is just a nice way of RJ saying:  they can put all of the smallest pieces of information together to form the picture.  Her biggest role will be getting information to Rand that everyone has been closely guarding or not talking about.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Ok Luckers, pleaes find the quote where Egwene says that Novices don't have to worry about being burned out anymore. Saying "somewhere in TCOT" is BS. Find a quote.

 

 

You're wrong.

 

Page 423 end of the second paragraph.

"It was harder to make a novice go slowly when you could not point out that she risked ending her quest for the shawl by burning herself out and losing the one power forever."

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

.

[RelentlessAttack]

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

 

I disagree strongly with your interpretation of the quote provided.  I think they're clearly saying they're not half of what they were.  However, strength in the power not being quantified by any particular scale, I do think that they can't really know precisely what % of their power they lost, and that it may a be a depressive reaction/dramatization in response to their drop in the ranks of the social hierarchy.  I also agree with the majority of your argument that being burned out can be healed.  I really think you've misinterpreted/overthought the above quote in terms of siuan's description of her power loss. She's clearly claiming that her and leane aren't even half what they were, not talking about some ridiculous estimate of what fraction of the gap between their current and past abilities nynaeve might be able to bridge.

[supermanblue2001]

page 423 end of the second paragraph.

"It was harder to make a novice go slowly when you could not point out that she risked ending her quest for the shawl by burning herself out and losing the one power forever."

 

^ My page 423 is about Elayne...

 

But I guess I'll flip through and find it. I asked for the quote because pointing to a 1000 page book and telling somebody "its in there" is bs. I still don't even know where the quote is. Can somebody point to a chapter?

 

K so I'm wrong that being burned out can apparently be healed. I still think that it is abundantly clear that Suian lost a significant amount of her power and Lanfear did not. The text itself clearly says she lost over 50% of her original strength.

 

Just for the clarification of everyone else the quote is from CoT - Chapter 17: Secrets. The paragraph is almost exactly in the middle of the chapter. That location should hold true no matter what printing of the book you have.

[levijbailey]

This is kind of off topic, but I wanted to point out the reason for the issue with power drop when a women heals a women and I beleive you will see the same with a man healing a man, here's the comment that made me want to address this:

 

The FAQ (section 2.3.15) suggests two reasons for the drop in power: 1) it takes a different technique to heal men vs. women (i.e. Nynaeve's weave was different that Flinn's); 2) it takes a man to properly heal a stilled woman, and a woman to properly heal a stilled man.

 

I beleive it is caused because the male and female powers drive the wheel of time by working against one another, but working for each other.  Think of it kind of like when Rand cleansed the male half of the source, he created a conduit with saidar and it allowed the male half to flow through a pipe of saidar, I think it's similar to what has to be done for severing and why it works best when a man heals a woman and vice versa.

[Tryeman]

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

 

I disagree strongly with your interpretation of the quote provided.   I think they're clearly saying they're not half of what they were.  However, strength in the power not being quantified by any particular scale, I do think that they can't really know precisely what % of their power they lost, and that it may a be a depressive reaction/dramatization in response to their drop in the ranks of the social hierarchy.  I also agree with the majority of your argument that being burned out can be healed.  I really think you've misinterpreted/overthought the above quote in terms of siuan's description of her power loss. She's clearly claiming that her and leane aren't even half what they were, not talking about some ridiculous estimate of what fraction of the gap between their current and past abilities nynaeve might be able to bridge.

 

  Agreed, I said pretty much the same thing. I think you're interpreting it how you want to so as to further your own theory and not how the statement is written. If I could bench press 200 pounds, had some type of surgery, and can now only bench 85 pounds I would say that I'm not even half as strong as I used to be. Not that I'm half as strong as the gap between me and the weakest member of my local gym. And I would be hoping to get to my full strength or at least 2/3 or at worst 1/2. Not that I wish I could be halfway up the fraction of the distance between what I was and the weakest member of the gym added to his base level strength. Sort of a silly extrapolation of a pretty straightfoward comment so as to make the comment fit your theory.

 

 

[Ben-Oh]

Even with all the comments about whether Siuan and Leane lost more strength than Cindane/Lanfear, I still think Luckers' theory that Lanfear was burnt out (stilled?), then killed and recycled, then healed by a women is good enough. The amount of strength lost is the main weak point, and the fact that it tries to explain that Siuan and Leane lost less than they claim is not helping.

 

Luckers: Maybe you can cut most of that part and replace it with something like "We don't know why it looks like Lanfear lost less than Siuan and Leane, it could be that they overestimated their loss, or that the amount lost has something to do with the healer, the old strength, the time spent burnt out or stilled or even something completely random". But feel free to ignore this suggestion or to expand it in your own longwinded ;) style.