The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Charlz Guybon]

How can you not take that into account? The Dark One is the primary antagonist and he's an evil God with vast eldricht powers. He and his minions are certainly taking his reality warping effects into account when they make their plans.

[Monitor]

The Creator is at least as powerful, and even if he is not as clearly present as the DO, the pattern is his creation. It is his creation, his rules. So that DO has an extreme disadvantage from the very beginning. Meaning that if the Creator wanted someone to live, he will just give the person extreme luck and the pattern will always bend to let that person live, like that person always stumbling if having the risk of being hit by something dangerous, in effect making that person invulnerable. That would give the DO zero chance to succeed from the very beginning, except as far he can overcome this by breaking the pattern itself, likely not very easy.

 

Anyway, it is simply impossible for us to judge the divine powers of the Creator and the DO, the rules for using them, and when they will be used. So better to discuss we can judge, the military situation in the absence of in effect divine interventions from the DO or the Creator.

[Yizun]

You are mistaken is assuming that the Last Battle will be a battle.

The Last Battle isn't a battle? Classic.

 

I didnt mean it in the context that you took it. It will not be a "Alright, people on the Light side get on the left, people on the Dark side get on the right. Ready? Fight!". It wont necessarily be a large battle where numbers  the only things that matter. A good example is the dark could use guerrilla warfare, pop up here kill some people and then leave. Rinse repeat and you have the forces of the light on the ropes, judging by how disorganized the Light is right now.

[Fel]

Anyway, it is simply impossible for us to judge the divine powers of the Creator and the DO, the rules for using them, and when they will be used. So better to discuss we can judge, the military situation in the absence of in effect divine interventions from the DO or the Creator.

 

The items I had brought up (famine, saidar possibly failing, shaidar haran cutting off channelling, blight, etc) are all items that have been actively seen and dramatically change the picture in the coming war.

 

Mass famine is almost a given now, with Min's viewings and the constant reference to spoilage.  How much easier is it to defeat the human army if they have no energy from a lack of food?  How much will the the channeler advantage help if the dark one can send shaidar haran to cut them all off from the power at critical times?  We don't know how the blight works and why it expands or contracts, so, as the dark one gets more free, it is very possible that it will massively expand...

 

All of these change the military situation dramatically from looking at a situation where it is *just* a massive trolloc invasion.  To leave the dark's greatest weapons out of the analysis is not valid.

 

These are not deus ex machina, just documented powers of the dark one that we have seen.  A dues ex machina would be if I said that the dark one would turn the world to night forever or simultaneously kill every channeler with lightning bolt...  Those have not been foreshadowed as some of these other items are, and, as such, would be very upsetting if suddenly used.

 

[Mr Ares]

We know they were able to move significant numbers in a short space of time. That means they had to use large groups in the Ways, previously impossible due to MS. So apparently it is no longer a problem.

which indicates that most army leaders will not be darkfriends.

Most don't have to be. That the Shadow has infiltrated the Light is a huge asset. A few messages going astray, an approach left unwatched, any number of similar things which could easily be dismissed as incompetence or a mistake or similar, actually the actions of Darkfriends. Ituralde doesn't need to be a Drakfriend, if those serving under him prevent important orders getting through leading to a victory for the Shadow.

So any experience must have been with somewhat mixed low-tech and high-tech.

Unimportant. If they know what troops with current technologies are capabvle of (and they've had ample time to familiarise themselves), coupled with knowledge they already had, you can't really claim that they are at a disadvantage due to not knowing the technology.

Furthermore, the War only lasted ten years

Only ten years? You can gain a huge amount of experince in ten years. And when it ended, they were in their prime. Really, their experience of warfare is a great asset. They also have experience with armies that are bigger than the current crop of generals are used to - it's stated that armies in the run up to TG are growing to sizes not seen since Hawkwing's day. A small army is handled differently to a large. This works in the Shadow's favour. They are used to total war with huge armies, the limitations of Shadowspawn, using channelers in combat. Most in the Westlands aren't, so they will have to adapt (except for the Shadowspawn part).

 

The Creator is at least as powerful,

But will not take part. Therefore, he is a non-factor. Shai'tan isn't.

 

It will not be a "Alright, people on the Light side get on the left, people on the Dark side get on the right. Ready? Fight!". It wont necessarily be a large battle where numbers the only things that matter.

Numbers are rarely the only thing that matters in a battle. And given some of the statements from BS and RJ, we can guess that it will be a battle at the end. After all, they did do a competition to be a character in TG, as a captain of one of the groups involved in combat.

[richnewton82]

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[sheikh chilli]

actually it is the other way around.

 

 

the dark one's followers are getting slaughtered, his forsaken keep getting killed or captured, his taint on saidin negated. basically he has nothing but few irrelebvant moves.

 

 

ironically his command of not killing rand al thor will be prove to be his biggest costliest mistake ever. the moment moridin sided with rand in hsi battle with sammael was the moment the shadow lost the war.

 

 

he will be walled up back with a whimper

[richnewton82]

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[Vambram]

actually it is the other way around.

 

 

 

 

Well, its a free country. You are entirely free to choose to disagree with Robert Jordan's analysis of the situation just prior to KoD.

[Seven of Nine]

the moment moridin sided with rand in hsi battle with sammael was the moment the shadow lost the war.

Wow, is that how you saw what happened there? And it's after that happened that Rand appears to be having possibly a third voice in his head and it's like he's pregnant the way saidin is behaving for him.

 

Somehow that "siding with Rand" is part of a bigger plan and it's not to help out the Light, imho.

[havoc110]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.  Dark has been inept for 11 books out of 11 so far.  Don't go accusing me of being a WoT hater, because I am most definitely not.  C'mon, teenagers vs. ancient evil badasses with the teenagers winning at almost every turn?  Epic struggles need to be STRUGGLES, and WoT is lacking in that department.  Also, I'm not rooting for Dark, either.  But if the remaining Forsaken prove as useless as the rest, and Light routs dark at TG, will there ever have been an epic struggle, or just a lot of words?  A least the words have given us all the side-threads and mysteries and secondary story arcs.  For the most part they're all great.  But the central Good vs. Evil part needs to step it up a bit.  Clearly most people disagree and feel that Evil can win.  All I can say is that I didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

[Seven of Nine]

If there wasn't the risk that evil could win, it wouldn't be that compelling a story, imo.

[Owners.Inc]

the moment moridin sided with rand in hsi battle with sammael was the moment the shadow lost the war.

Wow, is that how you saw what happened there? And it's after that happened that Rand appears to be having possibly a third voice in his head and it's like he's pregnant the way saidin is behaving for him.

 

Somehow that "siding with Rand" is part of a bigger plan and it's not to help out the Light, imho.

 

No, she's right. Moridin helped Rand, not only in terms of saving him from the Mashadar but also advising him on how to think like Sammael.

 

actually it is the other way around.

 

 

Well, its a free country. You are entirely free to choose to disagree with Robert Jordan's analysis of the situation just prior to KoD.

 

Actually, as people have mentioned, the events in KOD set the Shadow back a large way. Either way I've never been convinced about how RJ reached the conclusion that the Light was struggling so badly.

 

^ He has tried to order Rand killed. Rand keeps managing to pull a rabbit out of his hat though.

 

You realize that if it were so easy for the DO to win, it would have happened already, the pattern would have been unmade, and Randland wouldn't exist?

 

You act like destroying the world should be easy. It's apparently harder than you think and rightfully so. The Light's Proxy, the Dragon, is incredibly lucky and powerful and the DO is heavily reliant on human proxies to do his bidding (as he's been trapped either entirely or mostly for millennia). Those proxies are pitted against each other and are just as blundering as the forces of the light.

 

 

It is clear you don't like the books. You'd probably enjoy a book where the good guys and bad guys are both all knowing and don't make any mistakes. Instead we have a somewhat believable story where both good and bad make mistakes, have setbacks, but are still neck and neck according to this thread as we've seen people both saying the Dark is the underdog and people saying the Light is the underdog.

 

If you think about it, the order to NOT kill Rand came when the Forsaken were most conviniently placed to do so. There was a don't kill Rand order around when Dashiva was with him, and the same order was in effect when Moridin helped him against Sammael.

 

I don't think destroying the world is easy. Which is why sheikh and some others are arguing that the DO is at a great disadvantage. We mean it in terms of military might and channeling power. You may not agree, but there's no cause to accuse someone of hating the books. Even if someone did hate the books, they have as much right to criticize the books as anyone else.

[Seven of Nine]

the moment moridin sided with rand in hsi battle with sammael was the moment the shadow lost the war.

Wow, is that how you saw what happened there? And it's after that happened that Rand appears to be having possibly a third voice in his head and it's like he's pregnant the way saidin is behaving for him.

 

Somehow that "siding with Rand" is part of a bigger plan and it's not to help out the Light, imho.

 

No, she's right. Moridin helped Rand, not only in terms of saving him from the Mashadar but also advising him on how to think like Sammael.

But there's helping and helping. Taim saved Rand's life (and later sent people to kill him). I don't buy that Moridin has turned to the Light. If he's "helping" Rand, it's to get him to TG where he can be defeated.

[sheikh chilli]

^ He has tried to order Rand killed. Rand keeps managing to pull a rabbit out of his hat though.

 

You realize that if it were so easy for the DO to win, it would have happened already, the pattern would have been unmade, and Randland wouldn't exist?

 

You act like destroying the world should be easy. It's apparently harder than you think and rightfully so. The Light's Proxy, the Dragon, is incredibly lucky and powerful and the DO is heavily reliant on human proxies to do his bidding (as he's been trapped either entirely or mostly for millennia). Those proxies are pitted against each other and are just as blundering as the forces of the light.

 

 

It is clear you don't like the books. You'd probably enjoy a book where the good guys and bad guys are both all knowing and don't make any mistakes. Instead we have a somewhat believable story where both good and bad make mistakes, have setbacks, but are still neck and neck according to this thread as we've seen people both saying the Dark is the underdog and people saying the Light is the underdog.

 

Frankly, if you don't like the books, you don't like the way the DO conducts business, don't like the main character, then you are wasting your time reading the books and posting on a forum dedicated to them. As it stands, you're wasting your life on something you don't like. So if anybody sucks here, its you, not Rand or the DO or RJ or whoever else you have a gripe about.

 

 

err the dark one gave an order to not kill rand. please re read the books

[sheikh chilli]

actually it is the other way around.

 

 

 

 

Well, its a free country. You are entirely free to choose to disagree with Robert Jordan's analysis of the situation just prior to KoD.

 

 

well robert jordan has his opinion or analysis. i read what's on the books.

 

forsaken getting captured or killed.

 

staint negated from saidin

 

dark one's followers getting harrsased. all the chaos the dark one is boasting about is just a minor skirmish in the grand scheme of things. the key to the battle is rand al thor. sending confusing orders to your troops is a good way of losing the battle and the dark one has accomplished that.

 

being obsessed with turning the dragon to shadow has cost the shaodow this cycle.  worst of all all i see are the major bad guys getting killed or captured. none so far from the side of light so far.

 

 

are we witnessing a struggle or a rout?

[sheikh chilli]

Gotsta side with the Sheikh.  Dark has been inept for 11 books out of 11 so far.  Don't go accusing me of being a WoT hater, because I am most definitely not.  C'mon, teenagers vs. ancient evil badasses with the teenagers winning at almost every turn?  Epic struggles need to be STRUGGLES, and WoT is lacking in that department.  Also, I'm not rooting for Dark, either.  But if the remaining Forsaken prove as useless as the rest, and Light routs dark at TG, will there ever have been an epic struggle, or just a lot of words?  A least the words have given us all the side-threads and mysteries and secondary story arcs.  For the most part they're all great.  But the central Good vs. Evil part needs to step it up a bit.  Clearly most people disagree and feel that Evil can win.  All I can say is that I didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

 

 

exactly. the dark one is just completely clueless so far. all the casualties seem to be mounting from his end and most of it because of his bumbling troops or his own confusing orders.

 

wheras the forces of light are pretty unharmed. not one big character has been taken out from the forces of light. heck even moraine is coming back.

[Seven of Nine]

Well, making your adversary underestimate you can be a great strategy. I'm rooting for the Light, but if the dark forces don't make an admirable showing I'm going to be grossly disappointed.

[Ishmayl]

I think what RJ meant, and what shiek is missing here, is that it's not really about the Light as a whole.  It's about Rand.  The Light can be as strong as ever, and can be overwhelming to the Dark by margins of 10 to 1, but if Rand fails, it's over.  Game over, we're done.  And Rand ain't lookin' too good right now.  You may have noticed, but he's missing various parts of his body, other parts of his body aren't working right, he's not quite the epitome of emotional and mental "soundness," and at the end of the day, he's still not all that experienced at what he's doing.  Rand has to make it, and if any of the Forsaken got to him now (like Semmy almost did), or if one of the BT dreadlords finds him at a weak moment, or if by gods, Egwene does something stupid to eff him up, then we're through.  That's what is the knife's edge and and precipice that the Light is walking on.

[Seven of Nine]

In one of Rand's past lives, he begs Egwene to kill him because it's getting harder and harder for him to remain sane and if he loses it he can be turned. I confess I'm surprised something like that hasn't already been tried in this existence.

[havoc110]

Doesn't simply killing Rand seem too obvious?  The DO, when he's shut back in the Bore will come off looking like a Scooby Doo villain, beaten by some meddling kids and their shaggy brown mare.

 

I read the interview RJ gives on this topic as being a bit over-defensive.  It must have been more than me and Sheikh saying this, because he starts off his "Dumb Evil" post by acknowledging that he has heard some criticism about this very topic.

 

I buy into the "It's all about Rand" argument.  (although obviously I wish for a bit more pressure applied by Dark, or at least some token Dark victories).  But the rest of the argument, the DO's really winning and here's why: the price of stamps is going up, Bela's developed a quarter crack, that's the stuff I really don't buy.  The weevils in the bread gimmick is so tired that it's invisible to both readers and characters alike. 

 

But hey, we still have a whole trilogy to go.  Some chances for Dark to rally, put some fear into the forces of light.  Hopefully next Christmas we'll all be wondering how Light can possibly win in the final book, and Light will win TG, but at some staggering cost.  The argument being that anything less makes the series cheap.  I really believe that RJ and Brandon will deliver, but I (and some others) will always be left wondering why Light has dominated all 11 of the first 11 books.

 

But if my loony theories are right, then the DO will be a HEAVY favorite come TG time.  Isn't that part of the hero archetype, overcoming long odds?

[Seven of Nine]

Doesn't simply killing Rand seem too obvious?  The DO, when he's shut back in the Bore will come off looking like a Scooby Doo villain, beaten by some meddling kids and their shaggy brown mare.

No, but turning Rand to the dark side would be a coup--again.

 

"I've beat you again, Lews Therin!"

"I've beat you again, Lews Therin!"

"I've beat you again, Lews Therin!"

 

>:(

 

I read the interview RJ gives on this topic as being a bit over-defensive.  It must have been more than me and Sheikh saying this, because he starts off his "Dumb Evil" post by acknowledging that he has heard some criticism about this very topic.

 

I buy into the "It's all about Rand" argument.  (although obviously I wish for a bit more pressure applied by Dark, or at least some token Dark victories).  But the rest of the argument, the DO's really winning and here's why: the price of stamps is going up, Bela's developed a quarter crack, that's the stuff I really don't buy.  The weevils in the bread gimmick is so tired that it's invisible to both readers and characters alike.  

 

But hey, we still have a whole trilogy to go.  Some chances for Dark to rally, put some fear into the forces of light.  Hopefully next Christmas we'll all be wondering how Light can possibly win in the final book, and Light will win TG, but at some staggering cost.  The argument being that anything less makes the series cheap.  I really believe that RJ and Brandon will deliver, but I (and some others) will always be left wondering why Light has dominated all 11 of the first 11 books.

 

But if my loony theories are right, then the DO will be a HEAVY favorite come TG time.  Isn't that part of the hero archetype, overcoming long odds?

RJ said in that interview that we really haven't seen what the DO has up his sleeve (assuming that that interview was still relevant--and Jason's review quoted it, so I'm guessing it is). I see the DO getting tired of the petty squabbling of his "Chosen Ones" so he's gathering new, more motivated followers. I've always thought the DO's not as dumb/blind/uninformed as he sometimes comes across as from all the behind the scenes shenanigans the Forsaken think they get away with. Sort of like the in-home child care provider who gets caught on camera being mean to the kids. Oops!

[Owners.Inc]

the moment moridin sided with rand in hsi battle with sammael was the moment the shadow lost the war.

Wow, is that how you saw what happened there? And it's after that happened that Rand appears to be having possibly a third voice in his head and it's like he's pregnant the way saidin is behaving for him.

 

Somehow that "siding with Rand" is part of a bigger plan and it's not to help out the Light, imho.

 

No, she's right. Moridin helped Rand, not only in terms of saving him from the Mashadar but also advising him on how to think like Sammael.

But there's helping and helping. Taim saved Rand's life (and later sent people to kill him). I don't buy that Moridin has turned to the Light. If he's "helping" Rand, it's to get him to TG where he can be defeated.

 

No, Moridin has not turned to the light, for sure. But why not just kill Rand straight out there and then? Why let Sammael be killed at all? Whatever rivalry/deceit is going on between Sammael and Moridin, it doesn't justify letting one of your more powerful allies die. Worse, not only did Moridin fail to divert Rand from Sammael, he helped Rand do. Moridin isn't a good guy, but one has to think the forces of the Shadow aren't the brightest apples in the orchard.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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