The DO will be the underdog in Tarmon Gai'don?

[Braus]

 

Can answer tomorrow, but in my mind my point stands. These arent comparable to being a real target of the shadow. Im pretty sure darkfriends all across WOT world are scheming, being ordered around and killing of certain people.

 

 

And here is the real irrelevance (or is it relevance) of your argument.  Somehow the main characters aren't the target of the shadow?  Off camera plenty of other Darkfriends are killing plenty of other people?

 

I'll tell you what this is.  You're imagining things extraneous to the story in order to buy into RJ's "Dark is winning" theory.  Somewhere, the Dark One's real target is being torn to shreds by Darkfriends unknown?  Is that the best you got?

 

Also irrelevant is this "It's only been two years" argument.  It doesn't matter how long the story is in Randland time.  What matters is what the readers are experiencing.  And judging by the above statement, our experiences may not be so far apart after all.

 

Hello to all out there who think this argument is about something other than the reader's experience.  It's not even about whether the Dark is winning or the Light is winning.  It's about the reader's experience.  I don't really care about which Darkfriend is doing what to who.  It's incidental.  (Some of the incidentals are fun, though, don't get me wrong).  But most people here are rebuking arguments about the story and our experience of the story as readers with insignificant points, like "it's only been 2 years".

 

Our culture has cornerstone epic stories.  RJ with WoT doesn't try to hide the fact that he wants it to stand up with those stories.  Does it?  Doesn't it?  Why does or doesn't it?  

 

Fine to all those who say that WoT is the best epic saga of all time.  I'm all for it.  I can say I like it about as much as LotR or Star Wars.  But some of us see where the story may be lacking.  (Note the author's rush to defend against any such argument).  I can read text as well as the next person.  I don't have complete recollection of all the threads, just my personal favs, probably like most posters here.  But sometimes the text and the feeling a reader might get when reading that text don't agree.  You can't prove or refute this argument with the original text.  Someone here called Sammael a brilliant general, or something to that effect.  Where/how could you get that idea?  'Cause the BWB said so?  'Cause the words "brilliant general" were used to describe him in the story text?  So what?  The lasting impression I got from Sammael, through his words and his actions was "idiot and coward".  Please don't point me to the BWB as proof of my error.

 

Some issues are in-story issues, like who killed Asmo.  We can nit pick all the clues, non-clues, and red herrings until we turn blue.  That's fun, too.  The balance of good and evil is both an in-story and above-story issue.  I get the in-story stuff.  We all get it (or at least most of us get most of it).  But if you look at RJ's "dumb evil" post and those here that quote similar circumstantial issues, it's like you are making my/our point for me/us.  Contrary to what may be popular belief, TG will not be won by weevils in bread or bacteria in spoiled meat^**.  You can quote that scripture as long as you like.  It's all background.  Some of us would like to see the struggle in the foreground, too.  And I understand that some here think we're crazy, that we can't see it, but all you offer is the same tired list of stuff in the background.  

 

TG will also not be won by unknown DFs in unknown places killing unknown "real" targets of the DO.  Braus, you're inventing stuff to make your case.  I applaud your efforts to explain why the good guys are having such an easy time.  Clearly the Dark One's attention must be elsewhere.  I tend to explain it differently:  "Rand IS actually the target of the Dark One and the storyline is very thin in making a difficult path for him and his allies."  Try it on for size.  In fact you probably sped right by it on the way to your "Rand and Co. are not the real target" theory.

 

 

^**  Much more likely is a scene in TGS where a previously unremarkable AS chokes on a weevil, or gets a bad case of e-coli and dies, whereupon her illusory disguise wears off and she is discovered to have been Mesaana. :P

 

This isnt about a reading experience or feeling. The two years arguement is facts. People keep saying 11 books, as an tricky but imo false arguement, to try and give a measuremeant on how insane it is that noone died during these whole 11 books. But the fact stands that the time span is actually 2 years, and of those two years, as said many times now, our characters have been nothing. Nothing at all, that is there have been no real reason for the shadow to have them as serious targets, once again that is they shouldnt have been aware of any reason why they should be priotated as a very high Kill On Sight target, or capture.

Im not saying anything about reading experiences right now, who knows it was a few months since i went through all the books now, my last reread of the whole series was before the summer. So i might not be getting into this whole so called reading experience that some are getting. But im talking about facts against the whining that our chars havent died, hardly any of them. Also, im talking about serious danger, danger they shouldnt be able to escape, at least not more than once. While you now give examples of all the random darkfriends who from time to time, solo or a few togheter, tried to kill one of our chars off, solo or in a group, im talking about instances when say a untrained supergirl face an Forsaken heads on who is intent on ending matters directly. Or say if Mat were to face a forsaken who was gonna kill him.

 

I say, its a fact that the longer the series has gone. The bigger the dangers have become, the more of a mark/target our chars have been since they are all soon in very powerful and critical positons for the light. So its first now, the latest month or so in the books that they are really under threat.

At the same time, most of our chars arent as defenseless as they have been early on in the series, but the danger is alot lot bigger.

 

Also i dont get how you can call me ignorant, when you guys bring up reading experience. Regardless how RJ have pictured the chars for you, or the world. Facts in the books still stand. If you actually put togheter all the + and the - 'es, im sure anyone who read the series will see how the standings are and how the world is. I would actually agree alot more to someone who would argue that this war is impossible, since the light side is so badly hurt. I really dont understand how they are even able to keep the kind of armies they do in the field. A few months back the bowl of the winds was used and restored the wheater, but as far as i understood it most of the worlds crops went to hell because of that unatural weather. And now, apparently, some meat that have been butchered goes bad the same day etc etc.

 

Also the point someone brought up earlier about the comparison between the lotr and wot "countries" are pretty illustrating. The situation is really crazy now, a trolloc invasion at the borderlands would be distratuous now, regardless if the borderlander army get back or not. As far as i can see it, i dont think alot of the southlanders would actually understand why they need to or be speedy in coming, and the few who would come would be bullied by Rand into going.

 

And another point i think was made, i wouldnt at least wanna face loose forsaken and their schemes in a open war. When they dont have to manipulate and hide in the crowd. They all got pretty much 10 years of power wars as experience, and they wont be limited at all anymore in a open war. Also the fact why im even saying forsaken, is because they are all pretty "smart", they arent Liandrin or some of the other "stupid" black ajah, they are intelligent people. And im sure there is more of those coming, Aes Sedai or Ashaman darkfriends who will make a name for themselves if the war is long enough. The only real difference between forsaken and the current times channeleres, and that only applies to the crowd of channelers, is after all that the forsaken are all handpicked pretty much and as said "intelligent" and got experience, other than that they are like our channelers. Strength in the power might be important in duels and the like, but it wont matter that much in open war when both sides got loads and loads of channelers.

[havoc110]

Helloooo! McFly?!  I just told you it wasn't about the facts.  We all know the facts.

 

How about this.  Instead of ending The Empire Strikes Back after Cloud City, Lucas decides to move Jabba's defeat and Han's rescue to the end of Ep. V.  Our heroes leave as Jabba's sand barge is blowing up.  Roll Credits. 

 

Haven't changed one fact in the story.  Has the experience of the viewer changed?  Has the quality of the story changed?

 

 

[Braus]

nvm im out of this thread

[havoc110]

nvm im out of this thread

 

WoTever, man.  If you're going to continue to bring us back to facts, you should work on those as well.  DO has been targeting Rand (even though he doesn't know it is specifically Rand) for 20 years.  Since 978 in New Spring.  What do you think the Myrdd is doing in Chapter 1, Verse 1 of EotW?  He's looking for Rand (or someone who just happens to to turn out to be Rand).  What do you think Moiraine is doing?  They've known about/been searching for TWENTY YEARS.  Since Gitara's foretelling.  What, the BA (hence DO) doesn't know?  They're certainly on the scene in the WT in 978, ask Tamra.

[rygar]

Sounds like most are talking past each other. 

 

Anyway, I agree with one point that was made.  I was shocked when I read the RJ (or was it Brandon I forget ?) quotes along the line that is a time to despair for the good guys.  The books don't have that feel, at least not yet. Maybe Brandon will focus on that in TGS.

 

And yes, it is entirely because of the POV.

[Mr Ares]

but you have to admit. after 11 books there is still no struggle and no desperation amongst the forces of light.

We have to admit nothing of the sort. We see things getting worse throughout the series.

We have to admit that there is neither struggle nor desperation.

We must admit it. We must admit it. Resistance is futile. As is reasoned argument, or a differing viewpoint.

 

the guys who are almost like real friends to me are still safe.

I'm not sure that "not dead" and "safe" mean quite the same thing. Look at Mat - we know he survives, but he'll probably lose an eye.

 

the people that are important, the ones i have been reading since book one, the major characters are still alive.

The characters you care about being alive is a bad thing? The only way to generate tension is to kill people?

 

they are going to come out of it unscathed?

Like Rand came out of that encounter with Semi unscathed?

 

those theories made by those expertshave been acknowldeged by LTT.

So? LTT isn't the expert. Now, if Shai'tan agreed with them, you might have a point...

 

Where's Ned getting his head cut off? Or even Lady being executed and Nymeria driven off?

 

Where's Bran's fall?

 

Where's Quorin saying the words with Jon and then telling him to do what is necessary, even killing him? Where is the Old Bear's speech on the Fist of the First Men? "Many of us," the Old Bear said. "Mayhaps even all of us. But as another Lord Commander said a thousand years ago, that is why they dress us in black."

 

Where's the Old Bear being murdered by his own men, his own brothers? Where's Jon finding Ygritte dying? Where's Mag the Mighty and Donal Noye locked in last embrace in the gate? Where's Jon being asked to be false again and kill Mance under flag of truce? Where's Jon's loss of his brothers - all of them, in his mind, if not ours - and then being offered a chance to take what he's always really wanted but has always been ashamed to want?

 

Where's Tyrion's near death and disfigurement? Where's his bitterness at being humiliated and scorn by every man, with his own father at the head of the line? Where's Tyrion being rejected again and again? Where's Tyrion being condemned as a criminal, the worst sort of criminal, by all? Where's Tyrion betrayed by Shae? Where's Tyrion finding Shae in Tywin's bed? Where's Tyrion finding out that even the one person on the planet who loved him betrayed him and destroyed the only happiness he's ever known?

 

Where's the bloody Red Wedding?

In A Song of Ice and Fire. As for Jon's loss of his brothers, Perrin's entire family actually was killed. Jon still has the chance of a happy reunion. Perrin doesn't.

 

At that point, I get frustrated because every time I start getting remotely interested in a character, the POV shifts to someone who has no contact at all with the previous person.

I find this an odd criticism, I must say. There are nine pov characters in A Game of Thrones, including a one-off Prologue character. The survivor of the trio in the prologue is the Night Watch deserter killed by Ned in the first chapter, so that ties in. Six of the povs (Bran, Eddard, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Jon) are part of the Stark family, and start off in or around Winterfell, the castle where they all live, and a seventh (Tyrion) doesn't have a pov until he is introduced at Winterfell, IIRC. The only character really disconnected is Daenarys. Of course, if you don't like it, you don't like it, and if a book hasn't convinced you to carry on reading by 150 pages in, it's probably not the book for you.

 

DO has been targeting Rand (even though he doesn't know it is specifically Rand) for 20 years.

But not to kill him. The BA began the Vileness, and Ishy shut it down. He didn't want the Dragon dead.

[sheikh chilli]

ares,

 

those views of those experts have been acknowledged by LTT. Now you are telling me that the most accomplished man of that age acknowledging those risks by those very experts is irrelevant because he's not an 'expert' himself?

 

 

 

 

[Inveli]

ares,

 

those views of those experts have been acknowledged by LTT. Now you are telling me that the most accomplished man of that age acknowledging those risks by those very experts is irrelevant because he's not an 'expert' himself?

 

 

 

 

 

He's not the most accomplished man of the ages. But since you're obviously gonna ignore all arguement that goes against your claims, then I suppose there is no point debating with you anymore sheikh chilli.  ::)

 

Did I mention that I'm also Rand al'Thor's son?  :)

[Luckers]

Ok, this thread has a general feel of unpleasentness. Can we all please coach our arguments in a more positive manner?

 

Just pause before you post and remove anything that makes your heart race with delight.  ;D

[Fel]

It seems there are 2 arguments going on here. 

 

First, in reference to the title of the thread - is the DO the underdog?  Other than the fact that we are readers privy to knowledge that the "good guys win", it's hard to see the DO doing badly.  The forces of light still have no damned clue how to actually attack the DO's stronghold and do anything.  The DO is systematically destroying their world and the light's ability to survive, meaning that they HAVE to fight soon or die anyway.  Since they have no real way to combat the DO on his home turf as of yet, it doesn't look great.

 

The second issue seems to be that the story doesn't FEEL like the light is threatened.  I have to agree with this - there just have not been enough traumatic events that happened to the light from the dark to make me feel like disaster can come at any time.  Heck, ELAIDA could capture rand, torture him, etc, but SEMIRHAGE can't?  Fain (not part of the dark) has been effective at attacking rand.  Alanna bonded him against his will.  He was captured in Far Madding...The forces of light and misc other forces have been effective at wearing Rand down, but the dark has been highly ineffectual at feeling like a menace.

 

Quote from: sheikh chilli on October 14, 2009, 02:37:43 PM

the people that are important, the ones i have been reading since book one, the major characters are still alive.

The characters you care about being alive is a bad thing? The only way to generate tension is to kill people?

 

I would not say that characters have to be killed off to generate tension.  I thought that Mesaana being punished by Superfade Hand of the Dark was incredibly disturbing...imagine that happening to Elayne or Nynaeve or Perrin or Mat.  Superfade appearing out of nowhere, shielding them and torturing/raping them repeatedly.  That scene was one that made you feel that the dark WAS very powerful and very nasty, but, unfortunately, it was wasted against THEIR OWN PEOPLE.  Same with the cour'souvra.

 

Have the rats in all the cities start to attack and kill people.  Swarms of locusts.  More hunting packs of ravens from the first book - those freaked me out.  Many more "bubble of evil" to make life impossible.  Invade their dreams each night (the non-shielded ones) and drive them mad.  Massive earthquakes in the earth devouring towns.  Turn some "trusted" channeler to the dark with the 13/13 trick (suian? leane? the ashaman with the bells in his hair?  amys?)  Have Talamanes turn out to be Darkfriend and kill off Olver while attacking Mat.  Have Perrin forced into showdowns with the darkhounds.  Or, have him find out those darkhounds from a few books back went to massacre ALL the travelling people (a mass genocide of people we CARE about, unlike the people on the seafolk islands).  Have Hopper turned into a darkhound in Tel'aranhoid.  There are plenty of others - i am not that creative...

 

All of these things are things that would make the main characters feel hunted and desperate (like rand felt in book 3, which was one of my favorite parts of the books).  THey can still live, if you need them, but they should on the ropes wondering what nasty trick they will be forced to flee from next.

 

 

So, while I think (logically) that the DO is winning, it is very cerebral.  The characters are nowhere near as desperate as the LOTR characters were in the beginning of return of the king.  They are fairly comfortable, learning, preparing and working through things, and not really all that hunted.

 

[ajfurst]

I would not say that characters have to be killed off to generate tension.  I thought that Mesaana being punished by Superfade Hand of the Dark was incredibly disturbing...imagine that happening to Elayne or Nynaeve or Perrin or Mat.  Superfade appearing out of nowhere, shielding them and torturing/raping them repeatedly.  That scene was one that made you feel that the dark WAS very powerful and very nasty, but, unfortunately, it was wasted against THEIR OWN PEOPLE.  Same with the cour'souvra.

I suppose there's still some small chance it could go bad, but I was disappointed the Elayne/DF captain storyline didn't pan out with her captured and then suffering at his hands before she was rescued. Both for the effect on Elayne and by bonds and close proximity Birgitte/Aviendha. For Elayne, both the act(s) itself, plus the realisation gained that Min's viewing about her children being born healthy didn't mean she was immortal and what an arrogant fool she'd been. Darkness, tension and some real character growth from her. That would have made one powerful disturbing storyline, instead of the whimper the whole 'Elayne for the Lion Throne' ended up being (at least so far).

[sheikh chilli]

ares,

 

those views of those experts have been acknowledged by LTT. Now you are telling me that the most accomplished man of that age acknowledging those risks by those very experts is irrelevant because he's not an 'expert' himself?

 

 

 

 

 

Did I mention that I'm also Rand al'Thor's son?  :)

 

 

my comisserations...

 

He's not the most accomplished man of the ages. But since you're obviously gonna ignore all arguement that goes against your claims, then I suppose there is no point debating with you anymore sheikh chilli. 

 

 

where do you think the word telamon came from?

[Mr Ares]

Now you are telling me that the most accomplished man of that age acknowledging those risks by those very experts is irrelevant because he's not an 'expert' himself?

Yes. He is not the best person to know about these things. And Shai'tan might know a bit more than any of those experts.

[Fel]

I suppose there's still some small chance it could go bad, but I was disappointed the Elayne/DF captain storyline didn't pan out with her captured and then suffering at his hands before she was rescued. Both for the effect on Elayne and by bonds and close proximity Birgitte/Aviendha. For Elayne, both the act(s) itself, plus the realisation gained that Min's viewing about her children being born healthy didn't mean she was immortal and what an arrogant fool she'd been. Darkness, tension and some real character growth from her. That would have made one powerful disturbing storyline, instead of the whimper the whole 'Elayne for the Lion Throne' ended up being (at least so far).

 

I completely agree.  The Elayne line was a perfect point for this kind of thing.  Imagine that, instead of losing 3 misc Aes Sedai and their warders and being held for 20 minutes or so that Elayne was severed causing Birgitte to start to fade again and either die or get bonded by another Aes Sedai (maybe a black or an arrogant windfinder).  And, elayne goes through something akin to rand's treatment before Dumai before being rescued or before crawling out through a midden heap to escape.

 

There are countless other options both natural and supernatural.  Have 2 top Wise Ones be darkfriends and lead Aviendha into a horrible situation that maims her or causes her to question her entire "obey, obey, obey" life philosophy, or starts to turn her dark.  How about having 20 fades pop up out of a shadow and kidnap a member of the light back the Shayol Ghul before they can react.  That ability to popup anywhere there is a shadow is SO incredibly powerful and is equal to gateways, but it is ignored.  Forget the 100K trollocs, just send the 1K Mydraal instead.  Or send the trollocs as a diversion, but have 50 Mydraal appear in the room behind our channeling heroes while they are distracted.

 

basic point is that the dark has MANY weapons and attack lines that the light is not ready for and there are plenty of plausible means to make it feel much more hopeless than it currently does.  It also would help in some of the characters to grow in the books (e.g. elayne).

 

Please don't get me wrong - i love these books, but the danger and despair just are not there enough for me to worry for the characters.  After all, we KNOW that many of them will survive due to all the foresight by Min and we have no evidence that anyone (other than rand) is going to go through torture/maiming/etc.

[Jemlin]

I suppose there's still some small chance it could go bad, but I was disappointed the Elayne/DF captain storyline didn't pan out with her captured and then suffering at his hands before she was rescued. Both for the effect on Elayne and by bonds and close proximity Birgitte/Aviendha. For Elayne, both the act(s) itself, plus the realisation gained that Min's viewing about her children being born healthy didn't mean she was immortal and what an arrogant fool she'd been. Darkness, tension and some real character growth from her. That would have made one powerful disturbing storyline, instead of the whimper the whole 'Elayne for the Lion Throne' ended up being (at least so far).

 

I completely agree.  The Elayne line was a perfect point for this kind of thing.  Imagine that, instead of losing 3 misc Aes Sedai and their warders and being held for 20 minutes or so that Elayne was severed causing Birgitte to start to fade again and either die or get bonded by another Aes Sedai (maybe a black or an arrogant windfinder).  And, elayne goes through something akin to rand's treatment before Dumai before being rescued or before crawling out through a midden heap to escape.

 

There are countless other options both natural and supernatural.  Have 2 top Wise Ones be darkfriends and lead Aviendha into a horrible situation that maims her or causes her to question her entire "obey, obey, obey" life philosophy, or starts to turn her dark.  How about having 20 fades pop up out of a shadow and kidnap a member of the light back the Shayol Ghul before they can react.  That ability to popup anywhere there is a shadow is SO incredibly powerful and is equal to gateways, but it is ignored.  Forget the 100K trollocs, just send the 1K Mydraal instead.  Or send the trollocs as a diversion, but have 50 Mydraal appear in the room behind our channeling heroes while they are distracted.

 

basic point is that the dark has MANY weapons and attack lines that the light is not ready for and there are plenty of plausible means to make it feel much more hopeless than it currently does.  It also would help in some of the characters to grow in the books (e.g. elayne).

 

Please don't get me wrong - i love these books, but the danger and despair just are not there enough for me to worry for the characters.  After all, we KNOW that many of them will survive due to all the foresight by Min and we have no evidence that anyone (other than rand) is going to go through torture/maiming/etc.

 

One has to remember that the books can not be wholely *realistic* because no one wants to read about real world scenarios.  We read fantasy, where things seem to *go right* despite the fact that they shouldn't. 

 

there have been tons of times in reading the books I said to myself "It doesn't make sense that the Dark didn't just do *this* and they would have won"....but I'm not RJ and also, if things all went to heck too much, who would want to read the stories?  We read them with a odd balance of expecting the real and the fantasy....so sometimes, things can't always go as bad as you would think they could.

 

I expect there to be a lot more destruction and death in the next three books though.  A lot has hinted to that happening, and by then, we will be hooked and not able to easily throw the books down because or favorites took the long dive...

[Mr Ares]

After all, we KNOW that many of them will survive due to all the foresight by Min and we have no evidence that anyone (other than rand) is going to go through torture/maiming/etc.

I don't think we know as much as we think we do. Some survivals taken as given are not certain.

[ajfurst]

One has to remember that the books can not be wholely *realistic* because no one wants to read about real world scenarios.  We read fantasy, where things seem to *go right* despite the fact that they shouldn't.

I doubt too many are hoping (or expecting) the Dark One to win and think that somehow makes it a bad series because we know he/it won't. Just a higher price could/should have already being paid. If Elayne had suffered before being rescued, plot line wise she'd still be at the same point - Queen of Andor - but a much more interesting character if she from that point is also dealing with the aftermath of suffering.

Or the Perrin-Faile storyline. If she (and Morgase etc.) hadn't had her white knight Aiel protector, how much darker and more urgent her need to escape the Aiel would have been. Again by the end of KOD they'd have been in the same place, but I certainly know I would have been a lot more on the edge of my seat the next time one of the good guys was up against an enemy. Even if via prophecies everything was going to turn out fine, I'd be chewing my nails on what would happen.

 

Rand cops a lot of flak for his actions, but he's got a lot more character depth for how his upbringing plays against his negative experiences (not to mention Lews Therin in his head), yet he goes on. Siuan was interesting post-Stilling for adopting vengenance as her driving force, but she was never a major female character (or extremely important to a major character) like Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Min, Faile or Aviendha. The closest was Egwene as a Damane, but I certainly wouldn't put it on the same level as deliberately beaten (and a lot harder then bend over a desk) - no matter whether you obeyed - repeatedly, losing a hand and being partially blinded. I hope TGS or TOM can see at least one of those six really hit rock bottom and appreciate Rand's situation more.

[sheikh chilli]

Now you are telling me that the most accomplished man of that age acknowledging those risks by those very experts is irrelevant because he's not an 'expert' himself?

Yes. He is not the best person to know about these things. And Shai'tan might know a bit more than any of those experts.

 

Not the best person to know these things? hmph You mean the man who came up with the whole original plan of using a circle to seal the bore using 7 seals or focus points. You mean that man? By the way forget shaitan. he does not know what he's doing anyway. His orders make no sense. First moridin saves rand against sammael. Then 2 books later he gives an order to his forsaken to take or kill him when rand attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

 

[sheikh chilli]

I suppose there's still some small chance it could go bad, but I was disappointed the Elayne/DF captain storyline didn't pan out with her captured and then suffering at his hands before she was rescued. Both for the effect on Elayne and by bonds and close proximity Birgitte/Aviendha. For Elayne, both the act(s) itself, plus the realisation gained that Min's viewing about her children being born healthy didn't mean she was immortal and what an arrogant fool she'd been. Darkness, tension and some real character growth from her. That would have made one powerful disturbing storyline, instead of the whimper the whole 'Elayne for the Lion Throne' ended up being (at least so far).

 

I completely agree.  The Elayne line was a perfect point for this kind of thing.  Imagine that, instead of losing 3 misc Aes Sedai and their warders and being held for 20 minutes or so that Elayne was severed causing Birgitte to start to fade again and either die or get bonded by another Aes Sedai (maybe a black or an arrogant windfinder).  And, elayne goes through something akin to rand's treatment before Dumai before being rescued or before crawling out through a midden heap to escape.

 

There are countless other options both natural and supernatural.  Have 2 top Wise Ones be darkfriends and lead Aviendha into a horrible situation that maims her or causes her to question her entire "obey, obey, obey" life philosophy, or starts to turn her dark.  How about having 20 fades pop up out of a shadow and kidnap a member of the light back the Shayol Ghul before they can react.  That ability to popup anywhere there is a shadow is SO incredibly powerful and is equal to gateways, but it is ignored.  Forget the 100K trollocs, just send the 1K Mydraal instead.  Or send the trollocs as a diversion, but have 50 Mydraal appear in the room behind our channeling heroes while they are distracted.

 

basic point is that the dark has MANY weapons and attack lines that the light is not ready for and there are plenty of plausible means to make it feel much more hopeless than it currently does.  It also would help in some of the characters to grow in the books (e.g. elayne).

 

Please don't get me wrong - i love these books, but the danger and despair just are not there enough for me to worry for the characters.  After all, we KNOW that many of them will survive due to all the foresight by Min and we have no evidence that anyone (other than rand) is going to go through torture/maiming/etc.

 

 

 

i am getting a worrying feeling where all the major characters reach the last battle, participate in the fight, kick the dark ones butt and call it a day while sipping tea and smoking some pipe.

[Fel]

Not the best person to know these things? hmph You mean the man who came up with the whole original plan of using a circle to seal the bore using 7 seals or focus points. You mean that man? By the way forget shaitan. he does not know what he's doing anyway. His orders make no sense. First moridin saves rand against sammael. Then 2 books later he gives an order to his forsaken to take or kill him when rand attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

Not sure how you can know what the DO's game is.  I have been reading this series also and I don't have a darned clue as to what the pre-conditions that he is trying to engineer so that he can break free.  If we don't know his end game, how can you know that "he does not know what he's doing".  You assume killing, or not killing, the dragon is some key thing he has to do.  But, the only thing that I have seen is that he is trying to spread chaos (WHY?  I have NO idea). 

 

Not killing rand when he was building up the asha'man and ripping the world apart...spreads chaos.  Killing him or doing anyhting to stop him from cleansing saidin now that there are hundreds of male channelers about to go mad...spreads chaos.

 

Do his actions make sense?  I have no idea.  I CAN craft a plausible end-game for him in which his actions do make sense, but since we have no idea if that end-game is anything at all like what he is trying to accomplish, we all have no idea if he is a master strategist or an incompetent boob.

 

The only way to know that answer is to RAFO.

[Mr Ares]

Not the best person to know these things?

No, not the best person.

By the way forget shaitan.

No. Why should we? You don't know how victory can be achieved, therefore you cannot determine the best way to achieve it, and therefore you are in no position to judge the quality of His orders.

[havoc110]

Not the best person to know these things?

No, not the best person.

By the way forget shaitan.

No. Why should we? You don't know how victory can be achieved, therefore you cannot determine the best way to achieve it, and therefore you are in no position to judge the quality of His orders.

 

Actually, I think we are the only ones in positions to judge the quality of his orders...

[Muad Cheade]

How so? We've never had his POV and all we know of him is word-of-mouth or comes from his followers or enemies. We don't know what's in the mind of this god so we don't know what he would call victory.

[havoc110]

How so? We've never had his POV and all we know of him is word-of-mouth or comes from his followers or enemies. We don't know what's in the mind of this god so we don't know what he would call victory.

 

Aha! Another very important concept. WoT is a world of incomplete and imperfect information.  That's one of the things that keeps us involved, especially flinging theories about with abandon on these boards.  Say you're watching a football game and the quarterback gets sacked.  You don't really need to know the exact play that was called to look at the result of the play and judge appropriately.  I realize that "Has the DO been sacked?" is a question of some debate here.  (I don't think it is, but I realize that others disagree, but in my mind it's been more plays like the QB's own center steps back on the QB's foot, causing a sack, and that this has happened repeatedly.)

 

We have plenty of other non-POV characters or limited POV characters, but somehow the DO gets a free pass when it comes to inferring motive, means, and method?  Why would that be?  

 

Regardless, one can and should be able to offer an general observation of how they feel Dark is progressing towards their goals, whatever they may be.  We are mostly sure they result in Rand (and Rand only amongst the forces of light) surviving until TG.  Then, does the DO want to kill Rand? make him open the Bore? or does he want to destroy reality completely (this is a definite possibility, although I'm not sure how much the title "Nae'blis" is worth then)? Or maybe something else?  Oh, and there's something about a "Lord of Chaos" thrown in for good measure.

 

Let's just start with a couple of crucial (an by crucial meaning climactic end-of-book scenes) "plays":

The "FoH Trap": Lanfear/Graendal/Sammy/Rahvin: Result Lanfear pushed into Finnland, Rahvin dead.  Clearly a Light victory, clearly major defeat for Dark.

The Cleansing:  Saidin clean, Osan'gar dead.  Again, major Light victory.

BA capture of Elayne:  Elayne freed, BA dead or captured.  Light Victory.

Sammy trap of Rand at SL:  Sammy dead.

Attack at the Eye of the World:  2 chosen dead (Ah maybe that's it, the key to dark victory is destroy the Green Man, then again, I think not).

 

Why the above items are debatable is a continuing mystery to me.  How, I ask again and again, could these possibly forward the cause of Dark, and also how can they be equivalent to the like of famine, weevils, and rot?  Here is your glimpse into the Dark playbook, and here is almost every play failing utterly.  

 

I mean, you've read the same however-many-million words as the rest of us, the series is allegedly 11/14ths complete, yet you are unwilling to offer up an opinion?  Only that the DO's objectives might be different than our limited understanding?  I can only assume (and this may be incorrect, I realize) that AT LEAST SOME, if perhaps not all of the Forsaken are acting on what they beileve to be the DO's playbook.  It is possible that it is 100% misdirection, but I think that is unlikely.

[Mr Ares]

Actually, I think we are the only ones in positions to judge the quality of his orders...

I think the person in best position was RJ. We can't, as we don't have all the relevant information.

 

Say you're watching a football game and the quarterback gets sacked.

Let's not. Let's say you're watching a game, but you have no idea what the rules are. Someone tells you that one team is winning, but you claim that makes no sene, even though you don't understand the game and so are in no position to judge. And football doesn't have Quarterbacks, you must be thinking of American Football, which isn't football at all. Football is the game the entire rest of the world calls football.

 

Clearly a Light victory, clearly major defeat for Dark.

Except we don't know how major a victory it is. One Chosen dead, another removed from the game temporarily. But we don't know the rules or the best way to win. Sammael's death in SL was what Moridin wanted - he sent Rand to kill him. So that's a Dark victory, surely?