"To Live, you must die" (Theory)

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

Since the DO is able to influence the world, why can't the Creator?  

~Mashiara

 

I don't think it's so much that he can't as it is that he doesn't care.

He created the world, created the people, gave them free will, then left them to do with the world what they would. Why should Randland be any more important than the other worlds he's created?

 

Nynaeve all of a sudden figuring out how to heal death would be the biggest lamest Deus Ex Machina I've ever read in a book. I think RJ was a little more imaginative than to have to resort to something like that.

 

 

When the Creator made the Wheel of Time, he sealed the Dark One outside of the Pattern. Then the Creator, in his almighty glory, forged the world we know as Randland. And, as events went in the AoL, scientists seeking a source of Power than both men and women Aes Sedai could wield, they made the Bore in the Dark One's prision. From there he was able to wreak havoc upon the global civilzation, and the Pattern and Wheel of Time spun out the savior of mankind that would be the Creator's human surrogate upon the world.

 

In this sense it was the man who sat First in the Hall of Servants, Lews Therin Telamon. The Dark One's human surrogate was more than likely Elan Morin Tedronai, scorned and cursed by men who named him Ishamael, while those same peoples called Lews Therin the Dragon.

 

The Creator set up an anti-virus security firewall and protection system against any hack attempt by the Dark One on the Wheel of Time. The Pattern can be viewed as the 'Firewall', and the one known as the Dragon can be seen as the 'Virus and Hacking Stopper/Slayer'.

 

Hope that clears it up..

 

 

[Mystica]

There's a big jump from healing stilling to healing death. While Nyneave was fumbling with Logain, she mutters in between her musings over other things. How it seemed to appear like a string that was broken, a line that was cut in a way. Both ends of the string were still there, but they were not connected. Much like an electrical wire that is cut, once it's re-attached, it would work again.

 

Death is another thing all together though as that is a natural fenomena. Stilling is a man-made situation, where as death is a natural one.

 

As I'm typing this however, a thought occurred to me. In Star Trek, the doctor is able to reverse death 'if she can get to the victom fast enough' and only in certain circumstances. What if it takes some time for the spirit to leave the body after death? Like the Myrdraal take some time to realise and accept their death. Spirit and body being linked to each other with a chord or sorts, that is seperated (snapped) upon death? If that is the case, it might be that that severed chord could be restored somehow. IF it is done before the spirit moves on, leaving the body permanently.

 

It's a wild guess and a far stretch though and it would be a bit of a downer if that were the case. Would be sort of blah if there was nothing the Aes Sedai couldn't do.

 

edit: wouldn't the Forsaken and the AoL Aes Sedai know of this possibility if it did exist? They were supposed to be the experts. But then they seemed not to know about the ability to heal stilling either, or to cleanse Saidin. So yeah, probably not.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Hope that clears it up..

 

Uhhh...No, not at all. All you did was reiterate things any genuine WoT fan already knows lol.

Not to mention it has basically nothing to do with the topic at hand. No offense. :)

[Ashaman Kovan]

There's a big jump from healing stilling to healing death. While Nyneave was fumbling with Logain, she mutters in between her musings over other things. How it seemed to appear like a string that was broken, a line that was cut in a way. Both ends of the string were still there, but they were not connected. Much like an electrical wire that is cut, once it's re-attached, it would work again.

 

Death is another thing all together though as that is a natural fenomena. Stilling is a man-made situation, where as death is a natural one.

 

As I'm typing this however, a thought occurred to me. In Star Trek, the doctor is able to reverse death 'if she can get to the victom fast enough' and only in certain circumstances. What if it takes some time for the spirit to leave the body after death? Like the Myrdraal take some time to realise and accept their death. Spirit and body being linked to each other with a chord or sorts, that is seperated (snapped) upon death? If that is the case, it might be that that severed chord could be restored somehow. IF it is done before the spirit moves on, leaving the body permanently.

 

It's a wild guess and a far stretch though and it would be a bit of a downer if that were the case. Would be sort of blah if there was nothing the Aes Sedai couldn't do.

 

edit: wouldn't the Forsaken and the AoL Aes Sedai know of this possibility if it did exist? They were supposed to be the experts. But then they seemed not to know about the ability to heal stilling either, or to cleanse Saidin. So yeah, probably not.

 

Your logic and reasoning are sound enough. But you have to ask yourself something: Was RJ so uncreative that he would have to resort to one of the biggest Deus Ex Machina ever? I don't think so. It's too easy. Time and time again we've seen the plays on words with the various prophecies and such. I honestly think it can't be that easy as Nynaeve spontaneously learning how to heal the dead. Robert Jordan accepted death and the idea of it. Everyone dies eventually. Even the heroes. Death is an integral part of life.

 

Am I the only one who notices that the only examples of ressurection are the instances in which the DO brings back the various Forsaken?

Am I the only one that concludes that maybe RJ was of the mindset that everyone has their time and place and that he had only the evil characters be able to be brought back to life by the most evil character for a reason?

 

It's not going to happen. If for no other reason than that RJ was much, much more creative than having to resort to doing that.

[Mystica]

no, you're not the only one to think those thing. But then RJ was also notorious for his unexpected and quite devious twists and turns. No matter how much we think we got it, each time he managed to throw in something to completely knock us off course. I guess if enough guesses and speculations are made, we'll stumble upon a version of what will happen eventually but that's really all we're doing.

 

Although *wicked grin*

 

Brandon Sanderson did mention in his blog that we WoT fans have such a cunning way of figuring out things that he's afraid to say even the smallest things lest we'd figure out what will happen too soon. That's quite a compliment :D

 

But I think you're right though, I don't think it will be that straight forward. The prophecies are never straight forward. And as I said before, we usually get an aha-erlebnis àfter the fact. Just like finding out the sword that wasn't a sword was a Ter'Angreal, the People of the Dragon were the Aiel and the twice and twice again will he be marked were the markings on his arms and palms. We won't know till it's happened.

 

And I still think that the death refers to Lews' spirit moving on :P

[ROB_88]

can't it just be as simple as a copy of what happened to Mat?

 

Rand gets killed by someone, this someone gets balefired, the end

[Bob T Dwarf]

can't it just be as simple as a copy of what happened to Mat?

 

Rand gets killed by someone, this someone gets balefired, the end

 

It could, but that's weak.

 

"To live you must die."  Why?

 

Because Rand doesn't know enough to be successful at Tarmon Gai'don.  But, the Dragon does.

 

Jordan, himself, said that the Dragon was a Hero of the Horn who spent his time between incarnations in T'a'R with the other Heroes of the Horn.

 

From Birgitte we know that when in T'a'R the Heroes possess all of the memories of all of their previous incarnations.  We also know that after Birgitte was ripped out of T'a'R she retained those memories for an appreciable time.  She still hasn't lost all of them.

 

Therefore, Rand must die so that the Dragon soul can return to T'a'R and reclaim all of those memories ( That's what Egwene's dream about Rand in a dusty room with tiny dragons settling into his skin is about - reclaiming all of the memories ).

 

Nynaeve, having seen how Moggy cast Birgitte out of T'a'R will then have to find the Dragon and cast him out in the same way.  Rand's three loves will need to be waiting to rebond him and nurse him back to health.  That's what the three in a boat with the scales tipping first one way and then the other is about.

 

Once he's successfully back on his feet, the Dragon will then be ready and able to win TG.

[wumpus]

It could be simpler. The "Rand" from the current age does not have a waking knowledge of the one power lews therin telamon had, but he will randomly pull out a trick from intuition or "muscle memory" so to speak. Lews therin, on the other hand, lived in the age of legends, was part of the war of power - look back at the scene with death gates where Lews pulls out a whole bucket of crazy magic.

 

Semiherge specifically makes reference to the madness that it is much worse when people hear real voices, and not even Graendal has much success in achieving reintegration. I took that exchange as foreshadowing the "die to live" would involve the death of "Rand" the person in the current age when reintegrated with Lews Therin Telamon e.g. all the memories of having lived both lives, of being both people, seamlessly without the "voice" of the other - with the full knowledge of channeling et al. Then he would have a chance, he would know what went wrong with the seal and he would be able to get it right this time. Imagine a sane Lews Therin augmented with Rand takes the field in the final battle.

[Mr Ares]

Ares, not all heroes souls reside in T'a'r, do they?

Yes, all of them.

And the manner of Lews' death might have disguarded him from being a hero in the end.

No, it wouldn't. He need not die a heroic death. The Heroes are part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism. As long as he still had a use (combating Shai'tan) he would be retained.

[rygar]

So, is there a single place where theories reside?  WOuld love to hear them.

 

I think Rand literally dies, and then becomes a hero, to be called back to aid the next Dragon in the next world.  I think he will really die.