"To Live, you must die" (Theory)

[Omegadragon]

Ok, so its been awhile since I have read the early books, so bear with me if my basis behind this is off(also, feel free to correct me). I was thinking about the "to live you must die" thing, and thought what if the Rand that dies is a Rand form one of the possible worlds via the portal stones?  Not sure how this could come about, or even if the portal stones work the other way, but maybe our Rand enters one at some point in the last 3 books? 

 

Just thought Id throw the theory out there, since I have read many interesting ones, but not one along these lines. http://members.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Dragon%20Con%20day%202.html  Is a link to Dragoncon05 interview, towards the end of the page, a question was askedregarding souls. Made me consider this even more of a possibility ;).

[wavemistresstrammell]

Seems like a good theory to me, but why would he have to use a portal stone? Unless there's more to them then we've been lead to believe. Do you have any idea why he might have to use one? I like your theory... just don't know how the whole thing would work out.

[Ashaman Kovan]

For some reason I get the idea that a person and their doppleganger from an alternate reality probably can't exist in the same space. 

Ever seen the movie "Time Cop"? With Jean Claude Van Damme. It's an old one.  8) Lol.

 

Plus, to be honest, we've seen no evidence that something like that is even remotely possible. The only way I'll be able to deal with a "Body Swap" happening, is that if it does, we have plenty of evidence of the transmigration of souls. But nothing to suggest anything like what you've thought of. There are an almost infinite number of alternate possibilities. So even if Rand somehow got ahold of one of his random "Could have beens" and then sent them to die, well...Don't you think that would be a little too easy? Good theory, just...Only barely substantiated by a vague answer to an equally vague question. It could happen though.  :-\

[Mystica]

I'm still convinced that the one 'truly' dying will be Lews Therin in Rand's head. In that his spirit will finally find peace. Not sure how that would come about, but I don't really see any other way to make Rand 'die so that he can live'. Rand for the moment is a body with two distinct different 'souls' in it. Therefore I think that it will be one of those souls (Lews) that will move on.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'm still convinced that the one 'truly' dying will be Lews Therin in Rand's head. In that his spirit will finally find peace. Not sure how that would come about, but I don't really see any other way to make Rand 'die so that he can live'. Rand for the moment is a body with two distinct different 'souls' in it. Therefore I think that it will be one of those souls (Lews) that will move on.

 

Maybe because the DO is defeated and the pattern doesn't have a need for a champion reborn? At least till the next time the Bore is drilled. Unless you think Lews Therrin is real but still a manifestation of Rands madness and therefore not really subject to "death" unless the body the soul resides in is destroyed. Which I think is part of the Body Swap theory. Personally I hope it's something that no one has even guessed at yet lol.

[Mystica]

Well i've always considered that, when he broke the world and created Dragonmount, Lews' spirit got caught by it somehow. You know how sometimes in our world there's talk of people's spirit hanging around after death? Either unwilling or (more likely) unable to move on and usually restrained in some way to the place of their death. It's said that this usually occurs after a violent death or a death in which the spirit is unwilling/unable to let go of the world they left and move on.

 

It seems to me that, considering the manner in which Lews died and the horror he faced just prior to his death, that this may very well have been the case here. Lews' spirit, unable to break free from the living world but bound to the place of his death: Dragonmount.

 

Rand was born on Dragonmount. Already Taveren (as nothing that I know of indicates him being Taveren only occured after his powers were activated) at the moment of his birth might have very well have triggered a chain of events that ripped lews' spirit away from his place of death (Dragonmount) and latched it on to the newborn Rand. Dormant, like his powers, untill those powers began to manifest themselves.

 

The original Dragon and the Dragon Reborn, two of the most powerful Taveren in all of history. One of spirit, one of flesh. I think that Lews' voice in Rand's head is not linked to him going mad, for Rand wouldn't know all the things Lews knows from the AoL even if he were mad. There's no way he would stumble on so much of that knowledge by chance in madness. So I think that Lews is indeed 'real' only in spirit form.

 

Not sure if I made that any clearer but yeah, there you have it. :)

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well i've always considered that, when he broke the world and created Dragonmount, Lews' spirit got caught by it somehow. You know how sometimes in our world there's talk of people's spirit hanging around after death? Either unwilling or (more likely) unable to move on and usually restrained in some way to the place of their death. It's said that this usually occurs after a violent death or a death in which the spirit is unwilling/unable to let go of the world they left and move on.

 

It seems to me that, considering the manner in which Lews died and the horror he faced just prior to his death, that this may very well have been the case here. Lews' spirit, unable to break free from the living world but bound to the place of his death: Dragonmount.

 

Rand was born on Dragonmount. Already Taveren (as nothing that I know of indicates him being Taveren only occured after his powers were activated) at the moment of his birth might have very well have triggered a chain of events that ripped lews' spirit away from his place of death (Dragonmount) and latched it on to the newborn Rand. Dormant, like his powers, untill those powers began to manifest themselves.

 

The original Dragon and the Dragon Reborn, two of the most powerful Taveren in all of history. One of spirit, one of flesh. I think that Lews' voice in Rand's head is not linked to him going mad, for Rand wouldn't know all the things Lews knows from the AoL even if he were mad. There's no way he would stumble on so much of that knowledge by chance in madness. So I think that Lews is indeed 'real' only in spirit form.

 

Not sure if I made that any clearer but yeah, there you have it. :)

 

 

 

Except that the whole theme of the Wheel and the Pattern is that everyone is someone reborn. So Rand is Lews Therrin. They are the same soul, or spirit or what have you. The Wheel spun him out for a specific purpose. To defeat the DO and save mankind. After that's done though Lews Therrin need not be reborn again for even more thousands of years then this time. He will, eventually, be needed again. But by then he won't be "Lews Therrin" anymore. Or even Rand Al'Thor. There will be new prophicies I would imagine and the next Savior probably won't even be called "The Dragon".

[Mystica]

yeah that's true. I've thought on that too, but so far without much success. I still can't shake the feeling though that Lews will be the one ending up 'dying'. How else would the whole prediction work out? I very much doubt that they will find a Healing weave that can restore life.

[Ashaman Kovan]

yeah that's true. I've thought on that too, but so far without much success. I still can't shake the feeling though that Lews will be the one ending up 'dying'. How else would the whole prediction work out? I very much doubt that they will find a Healing weave that can restore life.

 

Have you ever read the Body Swap theory that Luckers came up with? Or at least explained in great detail.

I don't want it to be that but it makes pretty good sense and seems to be extremely well thought out.

[Mr Ares]

I'm still convinced that the one 'truly' dying will be Lews Therin in Rand's head.

How does that work? LTT isn't alive.

 

when he broke the world and created Dragonmount, Lews' spirit got caught by it somehow.

No. The souls of Heroes reside in T'a'r between lives.

Already Taveren

No-one is born ta'veren, according to RJ. The boys all became so shortly before Moiraine arrived in the TR.

ripped lews' spirit away from his place of death (Dragonmount) and latched it on to the newborn Rand.

There is only one spirit in Rand.

 

I think that Lews' voice in Rand's head is not linked to him going mad

It is. A rare form of madness, tha gives him LTT's memories and personality, but madness nonetheless.

[Mystica]

I'll look luckers post up, Kovan.

 

Ares, not all heroes souls reside in T'a'r, do they? And the manner of Lews' death might have disguarded him from being a hero in the end. His death wasn't based on some heroic act, it was based on the breaking of the world.

 

I just don't see the voice of Lews inside Rand's head being the result of Rand going mad. There's too much detail and knowledge of the AoL to it to be the result of a madman. It's not like Mat who got the memories of dead men shoved in his head by the Eelfinn.

 

the dying I'm referring to is not the literal dying, but the moving on of the spirit. So many things in these books can not be taken literally, why not this?

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

Lews Therin's spiritual voice and et cetera will probably leave Rand's body. However, Rand will usher in the new Age, and they will eventually reach the height of the AoL. By then they will have forgotten alll about the DO, and then drill the Bore. The WoP will ensue, and the Forsaken along with the DO will be sealed in a new Shayol Ghul, until that patch breaks once more, and so on and so on...

 

It gets confusing, but makes sense.

 

'The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten, ere the Age that gave it birth comes again..'

 

The whole cycle and stuff. Makes your head spin.

[Mystica]

one thing in that mantra im confused about though. In the books they say it's been 3000 years since the Breaking of the world (which was done during Lews Therin's life and so during the time of the Forsaken and the last years of the AoL). 3000 years isn't that much to be forgotten though, if you look at what we know IRL of the thousands of years that preceed us. How long would an age need to be before it is fully and totally forgotten?

 

There are records of history, those are kept in libraries or museums or whatever else place. Even with a destructive force, something always survives the carnage as a report of earlier times, no matter how far back they go. Look at the archeological founds we've done from tens of thousands of years ago.

 

What exactly, short of total annihalation of all the evidence, could cause the complete wiping out of knowledge of ages past?

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Two things come to mind.

 

Firstly, 3000 Years is a damn long time. I, as an everyman, in this day an age, quite frankly don't know a great deal about what went on in 1000BC. It's just not relevant to my every day life, be it that of a farmer or banker or gleeman or whatever.

 

Secondly, the level of technology we have in the field of archeology(sp), compared to that of Randland, is quite advanced. Carbon dating, sonar/radar, compared to partial page records with unreliable sources and even translations at times...

 

I'd say 3000 years is a very long time in the public memory.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Two things come to mind.

 

Firstly, 3000 Years is a damn long time. I, as an everyman, in this day an age, quite frankly don't know a great deal about what went on in 1000BC. It's just not relevant to my every day life, be it that of a farmer or banker or gleeman or whatever.

 

Secondly, the level of technology we have in the field of archeology(sp), compared to that of Randland, is quite advanced. Carbon dating, sonar/radar, compared to partial page records with unreliable sources and even translations at times...

 

I'd say 3000 years is a very long time in the public memory.

 

Stole my line/s.  ;)

[Mystica]

but not everything remembered from the AoL or even in real world is due to modern technology. The way it says 'myth is long forgotten' implies that 'no' knowledge of anything from that age is left. Not only in the mind of the common folks, but in all minds, including the intellectuals and those with access to libraries and whatnot (like Aes Sedai, for instance).

 

In our world we have written records dating back thousands of years. While those may never be seen, let alone understood, by the common folks, there are still people that do see them, work with them and know what they mean. So these things are nowhere near forgotten (in the total picture of the global population). Same as with the Aes Sedai, they do still have items and even know what they do from the AoL and they still have knowledge from that time both in written form and in memory.

 

So that leads me to believe that those myth that are long forgotten must have been from an age much much mùch further in the past.

[Ashaman Kovan]

In our world we have written records dating back thousands of years. While those may never be seen.

 

Or may never have even happened.

[Andvari]

It shouldn't be dismissed that someone (probably Nynaeve) could Heal Rand from death. There's enough small mentions of it here and there that look like they are foreshadowing. Until it comes to pass (or not) it obviously can't be called foreshadowing, but the way in which it is written is reminiscent of other foreshadowing that later turned out to be true (for example, Healing stilling - which was "impossible" like Moiraine said Healing death was impossible). The potential foreshadowing does indicate Nynaeve, to paraphrase: "she'd not be happy until she had Healed someone three days dead" or such. Resurrection after three days would also be a rather blatant Rand/Messiah allegory. It'd be nice for Nynaeve to get back on top of good guy female channellers, as Sumeko and Alivia have overtaken her a bit.

 

I'll point out that I don't necessarily believe this will happen, but it seems to me to be the most likely on available evidence.

[Ashaman Kovan]

It shouldn't be dismissed that someone (probably Nynaeve) could Heal Rand from death. There's enough small mentions of it here and there that look like they are foreshadowing. Until it comes to pass (or not) it obviously can't be called foreshadowing, but the way in which it is written is reminiscent of other foreshadowing that later turned out to be true (for example, Healing stilling - which was "impossible" like Moiraine said Healing death was impossible). The potential foreshadowing does indicate Nynaeve, to paraphrase: "she'd not be happy until she had Healed someone three days dead" or such. Resurrection after three days would also be a rather blatant Rand/Messiah allegory. It'd be nice for Nynaeve to get back on top of good guy female channellers, as Sumeko and Alivia have overtaken her a bit.

 

I'll point out that I don't necessarily believe this will happen, but it seems to me to be the most likely on available evidence.

 

"Healing someone so they can Channel again." Has to take a fairly huge leap to go to "Healing someone so that they can be alive again." Don't you think?

 

Yes, we heard throughout the series that Stilling couldn't be healed. I think the first time Moraine said it to Nynaeve sort of foreshadowed (to me) the fact that, eventually, Nynaeve would indeed figure out a way it could be done.

Stilling is condition of fiction. Who are we or really anyone but RJ to say that it shouldn't be able to be healed.

Death has indeed been shown to be reversable. But look at the only examples of it we've seen. The Bad Guys. With the only one of them capable of doing it The Baddest Guy. And it's not neccesarisly easy even for him.

You can try and bring up things like The Heroes of the Horn and the fact that Rand is a hero reincarnated. But it's not the same thing by a long shot.

So unless you're proposing that The DO is somehow going to be tricked into putting Rands' soul back in his body.....Or proposing that Nynaeve will somehow attain Goddess-like abilities...I know you aren't proposing that The Creator Himself is going to do it?

Not going to happen. Period.

[Andvari]

I wouldn't have thought any of it was likely on its own without specific mention of quotes, but the fact remains that there is a prophecy that Rand will die before living again and so the available methods have to be assessed. The nature of resurrection itself is the most unbelievable part of it, and yet that's the only part that's clear, barring plays on words or other unsuspected tricks - but that's my point, it would be using a previously unknown method of doing so, and we're trying to rationalise it with the current information.

 

 

"Healing someone so they can Channel again." Has to take a fairly huge leap to go to "Healing someone so that they can be alive again." Don't you think?

 

Yes, we heard throughout the series that Stilling couldn't be healed. I think the first time Moraine said it to Nynaeve sort of foreshadowed (to me) the fact that, eventually, Nynaeve would indeed figure out a way it could be done.

Stilling is condition of fiction. Who are we or really anyone but RJ to say that it shouldn't be able to be healed.

 

If you accept the fact that Rand will die, in the usual sense of the word and then live again, the actual method of using the One Power is not any less feasible than the concept of resurrection. It's either that or the Dark One or Creator, do either of those seem more likely? When it comes to it, the existence of the One Power is as unlikely as being able to heal death with it, as far as our world is concerned.

 

The thing not really explained by any theory I've seen is the use of the word "must". It's the implication that the only way to live is to die, and therefore the method by which he dies will be linked to the method he is brought back. Or it's the idea that the state of being dead enables life. I don't know how it would tie in to anything, as the only other thing we know about Rand's death is that Alivia will be involved somehow.

[Vordreller]

 

 

Lews Therin's spiritual voice and et cetera will probably leave Rand's body. However, Rand will usher in the new Age, and they will eventually reach the height of the AoL. By then they will have forgotten alll about the DO, and then drill the Bore. The WoP will ensue, and the Forsaken along with the DO will be sealed in a new Shayol Ghul, until that patch breaks once more, and so on and so on...

 

It gets confusing, but makes sense.

 

'The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten, ere the Age that gave it birth comes again..'

 

The whole cycle and stuff. Makes your head spin.

 

Actually, RJ had Ishamael say something about that in the very first book. Something similar to:

 

"It has happened many times before, over the countless turnings of the wheel. But now, something is different, something has changed. This will be the last time. You will not be reborn after this time."

 

Now, Ishamael could just have been trying to scare Rand at the time, but this is the first book, which must set the tone for the next ones. I think this can be taken seriously.

[Mystica]

In our world we have written records dating back thousands of years. While those may never be seen.

 

Or may never have even happened.

 

yeah well I highly doubt anyone is going to fabricate the death sea scrolls in their original form or the kabala or any of the ancients texts that still exist today in our world. So it's not as far a stretch as you seem to want to make it sound. :P No matter how much of a twist later political/religious/powermongering groups may put on them for general use, unless they eliminate every shred, in every place, all over the world (and that means all the tiny details that more often than not are found by accident rather than by intent), there will always be indications of the past.

 

Unless of course the whole world is balefired. That might actually do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

In our world we have written records dating back thousands of years. While those may never be seen.

 

Or may never have even happened.

Unless of course the whole world is balefired. That might actually do it.

 

Give it time. We're working on it.

[Mashiara Sedai]

I know that the body swap theory is popular because we have so many other instances of people being combined together.  Still, I'm a believer that nothing in WoT is impossible and that Nynaeve might be able to Heal death.  Also, I think it's a real possiblility that the Creator might take an active part.  Since the DO is able to influence the world, why can't the Creator?  I really think it was the Creator speaking to Rand in EotW, and I know that Jordan changed a lot of things since then, but to think the DO would talk to Rand is even more farfetched than the Creator, I think.

 

Either way, I'm excited that the end is in sight (even though it makes me sad too).

 

~Mashiara

[Ashaman Kovan]

Since the DO is able to influence the world, why can't the Creator?  

~Mashiara

 

I don't think it's so much that he can't as it is that he doesn't care.

He created the world, created the people, gave them free will, then left them to do with the world what they would. Why should Randland be any more important than the other worlds he's created?

 

Nynaeve all of a sudden figuring out how to heal death would be the biggest lamest Deus Ex Machina I've ever read in a book. I think RJ was a little more imaginative than to have to resort to something like that.