Prologue "What the Storm Means" Spoiler Thread

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

in regards to how much time has passed...hours probably, the battle of malden ended in midmorning i beleive, but as my copy of KoD is at my parents i cant verify. i inferenced it that Masema was murdered that evening/night at some time, or possibly in the next day or two. now, while the prophets mobs did commit atrocities, you have to keep in mind that he was a zealot completely blinded by his faith, and anything he ordered done he did in what he thought was the best interest of the dragon. the preceeding sentence does not take into account, however, his meetings with the seanchan. that could have been treason, or he may have been trying to liason somehow (far fetched, i know).  i just do not think rand would have condemned him as you guys said. berated, restricted, 'collared', however you want to put it, yes, but he was completely dedicated to the Lord Dragon, and spreading his word and influence, and i cant see rand executing one of his most steadfast (as far as can be proven at this time) supporters.

 

perrin, however, certainly would have, but you have to remember perrin has stuck much more strongly to his roots and upbringing than rand or mat has. faile killed him because she saw him as a threat, and probably at the goading of the aiel wise ones, who wanted him dead from the start. however you look at it, masema brought tens of thousands of people to follow rands banner, and also nations, albeit through harsh measures.

 

again, this is all from an 'i hate faile and would give anything to see her die or get kicked off of her high horse' point of view, so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

I think that, if Murandred (heh) plays out as other posters believe, I will be extremely disappointed in RJ/BS.

 

Indeed, even when we depart from the disunity of Murandian politics, from a quantitative perspective, Murandy is an extraordinarily weak country - in population levels, in resources, in land mass. It is, in essence, a backwater.

 

However I think that there is an important *narrative* argument against Barid Bel hanging out in Lugard.

 

Every other Da'concion has been placed in a position that has enormous bearing on the series' action: even Graendal, who's in a pretty remote location, influences a massive country *and* provides a means to keep the Seanchan and the Westlanders at each others' throats, based on her provoking Ituralde.

 

But ignore her own plotting, and we see that she also participated in the machinations against Rand & co. in TFOH, Sammael's actions in LOC/ACOS, and in the Shadow attempt to prevent the Cleansing.

 

Semirhage, Sammael, Rahvin, Be'lal each manipulated much more powerful countries than even Arad Domon, and beyond that, because they occupied such powerful countries, they provided major stimuli for the actions of the Our Guys. And, their falls all were all crucial to advancing the story line.

 

Meanwhile, the Gars, Moghedien, Lanfear, and Asmodean were all involved with Our Guys on a personal level.

 

Moreover, Aran'gar and Mesaana represent the Shadow's principals in two of the three major channeling groups (not necessarily by numbers but by presence in the narrative).

 

Finally, Elan Morin (backed up by SuperFade) is the regent of the Great Lord and thus necessarily occupies a position above the others, but also involving the others, meaning that he has to direct the collective efforts of the Shadow, and so precludes him from occupying a similar position as one of the other Da'concion.

 

From one side, we could argue that Murandy could be the fifth column during the upcoming war. But that doesn't make sense from the perspective of the narrative as a whole. It seems, well, redundant, because there already is a fifth column that's been established from like the first quarter of the first book of the series! Why have a second group, some of whom probably don't like the Shadow (unless Murandy is 100% pro-Dark), which lacks any spectacular qualitative advantage over either Rand & co. or the Seanchan? Frankly, either one of the two major Light forces could crush Murandy in a week without diverting too much from the main anti-Trolloc force. Unless the main Trolloc force is in Murandy, but that, still, seems so far fetched as to be ridiculous.

 

I think, then, that this passage confirms Barid Bel is either Borderandred, Sharandred, *or* controlling the Black Tower through Señor Taim. Frankly, I think that the last two are the most likely. However, to address the first possibility, this would make a certain amount of sense plotwise. We know that

 

1. Tenobia and Bashere have to kick the bucket at some point for Perrin and She Who Shall Not Be Named to take over the Broken Crown

2. It would explain why the only four monarchs who really believed in Shadowspawn at the beginning of the series stripped their defences bare.

3. It would explain why they're in Andor - they provide a useful auxiliary to Taim, who is a DF in one way or another

4. And it would explain Barid Bel's comment in this prologue: he's finished the necessary compulsion, he's ready to move, and he's the only AoL general left, so he's got an army.

 

But that too is pretty weak, because, in the same way that Murandy is weak, a single army is weak too.

 

That leaves, frankly, controlling the Black Tower or controlling Shara. I admit, Taimandred didn't occur to me at first, then it took control of my faculties, and then I pretty much agreed it was bunk. But Taim has to be under *someone's* command. And Barid Bel's phrasing made a ton of sense, if you recall that Rand has sent his Companions, Logain and all of Logain's followers to Arad Domon or on some other task. Thus, as of tGS, Taim's faction fully controls the BT, because the only other challenge to Taim's authority disappeared, while Rand has forgotten about the Dreadlords in the TW, and, hell, LTT's own memories which ought to remind him that the Da'concion *were not* the only DF channelers.

 

However, I also feel that Taim can't be willing to accept Demandred's control; and so I suspect that Elan Morin is his controller, and that one of those extra seats in KOD was for him. He's certainly demonstrated that he deserves to be concion more than Moghedien or Mesaana or Cyndane.

 

That leaves me with only Sharandred. I don't like it, and I would rank it narrowly above Borderandred. However, recall the Ayamar, who were supposed to be RJ's "shocking" surprise in COT. I wouldn't be surprised to find RJ/BS giving us Shara as the Shadow's answer to the Seanchan, just like the Trolloc/DF combo is the answer to the Aiel/Westlands. Moreover, it would also support Barid Bel's phrasing in the Prologue. And, it would provide a serious counter to the damane. Recall that, at this point, Our Guys still have the bulk of the Aes Sedai, unless Mesaana's been running around the Tower with a baker's dozen of Myrrdraal; they have probably 40-60% of the male channeling strength; they have the Wise Ones/Windfinders; and they will probably have the great bulk of the damane.

 

Frankly, for the story to be *compelling*, I think that the Shadow has to even the channeling numbers somehow. We have Suroth's word that DFs in the sul'daming population are extremely low, and I would guess that WO/WF are similarly underrepresented in the Shadow camp. Moreover, Taim seems to control at least 100 powerful and well trained channelers, and so I would say that, added to remaining Saidin Da'concion, that makes the Shadow around even in the Saidin department.

 

Moreover, Demandred's role as a general suggests Borderandred and Sharandred better than running the BT. But until otherwise, I think the likelihood of his positions are:

 

1. BT

.

2. Shara

3 (or maybe two prime). Border army

.

.

.

4. Murandy or Some place else

[daitenshe]

 It was weird reading from Masema's PoV. Ever since the beginning i've really disliked him (as im sure most have) but reading about what happened to him, especially after gaining a little more insight about his madness, (i support the forsaken involvement glowy Rand theory) I almost felt bad for him. Having your head toyed w/ by the forsaken is going to mess up anyone's sanity. (especially if compulsion was involved) Imo though, he still shouldve died because of what he had done, personally or by his commands to others and because of the danger he posed to everyone. (shown by his graphic plans on how to kill Perrin) I just thought it was kind of ironic that "the Prophet" was actually duped and used by one of the forsaken

[Rhule]

Has it been proposed by other Forsaken that Demandred could have been the Dragon, if things turned out differently(p. 36 of the prologue)?

[DemandredFO]

I have finally listened to the prologue and my observations

The trollocs were a freelance as I said, if it was an official attack I would've gone in with grey men, dragkhar and maybe some darkhounds first to and assassinate officers and trigger your darkfriends to cause more chaos then send in trollocs and myrdraal, shielded by dreadlords maybe with some other shadowspawn which, as yet, we don't know about,  caviaat; how would non-balefire kill darkhounds.

I forsee Tylee sending Raken for Perrin with or without orders.

I see the significance of that black tower or whatever they met at I guess we'll find out.

It was too short, I thought we'd see something from Tarna or Egwene.

[Morgar]

Is it possible Demandred = Galgan.  If Semi and him were acting in concert, Semi to ensure Tuon's demise at the right moment and Demandred to take advantage of that it would make sense that Demandred would feel his position compromised without Semi. Suroth would pose no problem to the forsaken thus him being secure in his position and giving him command over vast legions of chaos.

[daitenshe]

whoa, thats a really scary thought. All the shadowpawn have usually come up independantly so it was like, 1 style of fighting at a time. but w/ each of the dark one's creatures playing to their individual strengths all at one time seems soo overwhelming!

[DemandredFO]

I'm not saying that's what they will do but at the very least demandred will think of it and that seems to me the most logical way to go.  They don't have Sun Tzu but the guy writing it has and after all the emphasis on Great Captains and the like I would be really disappointed if all the trolloc attacks were like the one in KOD.  That was cool and all but that was unathorized.

[Cairodin]

Does Demandred being in Shara really make sense when we know that Graendal took out its leaders some time ago just to impress Sammael, consequently plunging that land into chaos?  I think RJ has also said that we wouldn't see Shara, though maybe that just means physically we'll have no POV in that area of the world.

On the other hand, I admit I don't even want to try and guess where Demandred, even now.  Murandy?  That just doesn't sit well with me.   Like someone said earlier, the whole place couldn't be a den for Darkfriends.  Beyond that, it's sorta small, and only just now becoming more unified.  Does it really sound like a land that's ready to march?  Sammael once said that "events to the south" looked like Demandred's work to him, so I've been thinking that Weiramon is one of Demandred's proxies... but that's the only thing I really have convinced myself of concerning Demandred's whereabouts.

 

I've definitely been looking forward to finding out where he's been, though, and I hope the answer's coming soon.  I loved that the fans were/are so well represented by Graendal's frustration on the matter.

[LinuxForAll]

Does anyone else feel bad for Mesaana? I feel like a wierdo  :-\

 

Funny, I felt the same way. I mean that I didn't like him and he was obviously insane, but I could not help feel a twang of sadness for him at the end. He was completely loyal to Rand in his own warped way and in his own mind he was doing the Dragon Reborn's biding. I knew that he had to die, I would have liked to have seen the confrontation between him and Rand. Oh well, I loved the Prologue however.

[Mr. Micawber]

Does Demandred being in Shara really make sense when we know that Graendal took out its leaders some time ago just to impress Sammael, consequently plunging that land into chaos?

 

Hence him saying only now, five or six books later, that his rule is complete.

 

Is it possible Demandred = Galgan.  If Semi and him were acting in concert, Semi to ensure Tuon's demise at the right moment and Demandred to take advantage of that it would make sense that Demandred would feel his position compromised without Semi. Suroth would pose no problem to the forsaken thus him being secure in his position and giving him command over vast legions of chaos.

 

Again, his exact quote is that his rule is now complete. Yet now Tuon has removed the veil, Suroth is overthrown, and "Anath" is gone, meaning it is impossible he's in charge. Not to mention highly unlikely that both he and Semi would be doing the exact same thing.

 

However, *Galgan* might be Atha'an Shadar like Suroth, meaning that Semirhage would have been running the two main players in the Hailene and controlling the Corenne directly through Tuon. I find that a hell of a lot more likely.

[Mr. Micawber]

Oh, and I remember one other major thing that counts against Murandred.

 

Roedran is so impressed by Madoc Comadrin that he's having copies printed.

 

Demandred was arguably the best Shadow general during the First War.

 

Considering his psychological issues with being anything but the best is what turned him in the first place(ie. the "Almost" man described in the Big Book with the Bad Artwork and LOC), and his constant disparaging of the current world as primitive, it is almost impossible to imagine him being so enthralled by another general, and one from the 3rd Age to boot.

 

And, I think this point that Graendal makes, that he had nearly been the Dragon himself, is another vote in favor of Shara. Recall that Rhuarc reports that Shara has been thrown into fighting because of "news of the DR". We know that Graendal stole their leaders, *but* what if Shara thinks that Demandred is the Dragon Reborn? And what if he brings his new followers into the Westlands where there's a "false Dragon"? That's about the only way I can see the Shadow gaining control of an entire people at this stage in the game, having first convinced them *they* are the warriors of the Light.

[sumquy]

From the review by the mod that read the actual book.

 

"If you thought Rand was hard before, you haven’t seen anything yet. As I read this new book, my heart just went out to him. I was completely engaged as I witnessed him go deeper and deeper into depression and insanity. We’ve all known that Rand has been going the wrong way emotionally for a long time. But in this new novel, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson took him to a place I never thought he would go. There is a scene towards the middle of the book that was so dramatic and intense, that I … I don’t even know to say it. As a long time fan of the novels, it rocked me to read it. I had to set the book down and let it soak in."

 

I think Graendal will hurt/kidnap one of Rand's broads. Probably Min or Avi. I think that Rand will be forced/decide to kill her in order to save his lady. This could be the anguish that Moridin ordered her to inflict on Rand.

[Luckers]

I still think Aviendha will be the one to kill Graendal. Or drive her out. Either one.

 

Rand may be forced to kill Aran'gar though--I wonder if he'd have problems killing a man in a womans body?

[Majsju]

Regarding Shara, Graendal did not abduct the leaders. The Sh'boan and Sh'botay are just figureheads, the real leaders are the Ayyad - Sharas channelers.

[Gilmadin]

I think the biggest clue that we have for where Demandred might be is in book 5 (or maybe 6). It's around the same time that Rand and Avi have their little "escapade" in the snow in Seanchan, which I know happened in 5. In one of the Forsaken meetings around this time period, we see Demandred exiting a gateway with a snowy landscape behind him. At this time, it is summer all over Randland - this is just before (or possibly just after) people begin commenting that summer should have ended long since. So, where on the planet could be in the middle of winter at this time? The DO probably did not make the entire planet one gigantic summer-fest. He probably simply froze the seasons, however they were at the time. Him showing the snow behind Demandred I think was a very deliberate clue to Demandred's location. The only places I can think of are 1) Seanchan, which to me seems unlikely since we know that as of KoD Seanchan is in the middle of a huge civil war, very much like the War of the Hundred Years, and I don't think even a general as good as Demandred could pacify something like that in so short a time. 2) The Land of Madmen, which we only know exists because of the WoT handbook. RJ said once that he wouldn't use the Land of Madmen - he skipped over it. He said that had he used it, it would have appeared somewhere around PoD. 3) Shara. Who knows what the climate of Shara is like?

[Mr. Micawber]

Him showing the snow behind Demandred I think was a very deliberate clue to Demandred's location.

 

I totally forgot that.

 

The Westlands and Shara are all in the same hemisphere. But, consulting my BBWBA, there are definitely mountains in Shara. Seanchan is divided about equally by the equator.

 

But I mean, why on earth would Semi throw the Empire into total chaos *and then* expect Demandred to rule the place? It's just crazy.

 

 

[Aiemond]

From the review by the mod that read the actual book.

 

"If you thought Rand was hard before, you haven’t seen anything yet. As I read this new book, my heart just went out to him. I was completely engaged as I witnessed him go deeper and deeper into depression and insanity. We’ve all known that Rand has been going the wrong way emotionally for a long time. But in this new novel, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson took him to a place I never thought he would go. There is a scene towards the middle of the book that was so dramatic and intense, that I … I don’t even know to say it. As a long time fan of the novels, it rocked me to read it. I had to set the book down and let it soak in."

 

I think Graendal will hurt/kidnap one of Rand's broads. Probably Min or Avi. I think that Rand will be forced/decide to kill her in order to save his lady. This could be the anguish that Moridin ordered her to inflict on Rand.

 

 

I hope we see the beginning of rand's redemption at the end of the novel then.

[sumquy]

ya maybe we'll see him cry

[Aiemond]

ya maybe we'll see him cry

 

Ya. Either from hapiness at having them back or sadness if them still being captured. I don't think they can die because of the three women on a boat prophecy (and of course the quads for avi) but tortured yes. Also, Nynaeve is basically the only AS he really trusts, and he does have some affection for her as the former wisdom. If she were to be killed it could have a similar effect. I believe he would cry if she died.

[Gilmadin]

From the review by the mod that read the actual book.

 

"If you thought Rand was hard before, you haven’t seen anything yet. As I read this new book, my heart just went out to him. I was completely engaged as I witnessed him go deeper and deeper into depression and insanity. We’ve all known that Rand has been going the wrong way emotionally for a long time. But in this new novel, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson took him to a place I never thought he would go. There is a scene towards the middle of the book that was so dramatic and intense, that I … I don’t even know to say it. As a long time fan of the novels, it rocked me to read it. I had to set the book down and let it soak in."

 

I think Graendal will hurt/kidnap one of Rand's broads. Probably Min or Avi. I think that Rand will be forced/decide to kill her in order to save his lady. This could be the anguish that Moridin ordered her to inflict on Rand.

 

I think that the big thing to remember from Jason's quote, is that he doesn't make it sound like this is a good thing. Not sure Rand's redemption beginning is in the program here. I have a feeling that's going to be a thing for the last book. Maybe the end of book 13.

[Mr. Micawber]

I think Graendal will hurt/kidnap one of Rand's broads. Probably Min or Avi. I think that Rand will be forced/decide to kill her in order to save his lady. This could be the anguish that Moridin ordered her to inflict on Rand.

 

What if the book ended with one of the babes kidnapped? That would pretty much destroy him, as it's exactly what he's been afraid of since Book 4 when he realized he loved Elayne.

 

Hell, even before the Three, he basically put the kibosh on Egwene at Fal Dara for this reason.

 

I think that your situation would be more a Shatner-esque paradox that destroys the evil computer and ends the week's episode.

 

Frankly, I've long thought, ever since Lanfear mentioned Rand's "little problem" to Graendal back in FOH, that Graendal would probably try to get one of the girls, and then Rand would break his block, as it were, and turn her into mush. Although, FOH itself tells a mixed story; I don't think at that point Rand fully recognized he loved Aviendha, and that if he didn't do anything to stop Lanfear, she'd die. Perhaps this time it would go differently.

[Muad Cheade]

First off, I think Demandred is in Shara for the following reasons:

 

1).He obviously rules a nation and controls armies (that he's gathering for Tarmon Gai'din)

 

2). Yes, I know Jordan said we won't see any scenes set in Shara or Seanchan but those aren't necessary to know he rules there.

 

3). Controlling the Sharans gives the Shadow a large base of soldiers and channelers who can actually go through Gateways unlike Trollocs.

 

4). Also, we have seen basically every ruler of Randland except for Roedran the now king of Murandy, and Alsalam, the ruler of Arad Doman. It can't be the former because there has been no change between the Roedran of before and the Roedran now. He is both said to be a person of dissolute character and there is also the Madoc Comadrin book part. It can't be Alsalam because that's Graendal's territory and she would be aware of him although the gathering army part fits.

 

5). He's not with the Borderlanders because we have seen the mos important people in that army i.e. the kings and queens and their rulers. So Demandred can not be there.

 

As for the theory that Galgan was a Darkfriend or even Demandred:

-1). If he were one of them, Suroth would not feel as much animosity towards him.

-2). Robert Jordan said we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego so that rules him out.

 

Is it just me or were y'all surprised to see Mishima die? I was shocked. There's this character that had kinda grown on us since KoD and BAM! He's gone. I do like how Tylee feels about Perrin though. Also, one thing that's been proven time and again is that no matter how good of an army you have, everyone's first encounter with Trollocs seems to go in favor of the Shadow. Tam al'Thor was a Blademaster, yet he fared poorly and another example is the attack on the Stone in TSR.

 

Faile.....She did what needed to be done but it was still wrong. I don't know how Perrin will react to that if she finds out. One point: Masema notes that there were men with Faile, the ones with the bows. If so, that means there were Two Rivers men, which means, Perrin might find out. Also, I definitely think Masema was unknowingly touched by the Shadow in the past. It'd also make sense if he was given the power to influence people and draw them to his side.

 

Rodel Ituralde is amazing. His battle elevated him to second on my list of greatest military commanders in the WoT. Just ingenious. That's one scene I hope to see in a WoT movie.

 

[RAMb0211]

Ok I'm kinda fuzzy on this whole thing but I'll propose it anyway. I seem to recall that when all the Borderlanders meet to decide on wether to head south or not there was something odd about Agelmar. I can't remember if he was absent or what but I'm just going off what I remember. Anyways I'm not saying Demandred has been Agelmar from the start, but from what I can remember, after The eye of the World he was seen in a different light. I think if he's in the Borderlands that might be the greatest possibility.

[Gilmadin]

Is it just me or were y'all surprised to see Mishima die? I was shocked. There's this character that had kinda grown on us since KoD and BAM! He's gone. I do like how Tylee feels about Perrin though. Also, one thing that's been proven time and again is that no matter how good of an army you have, everyone's first encounter with Trollocs seems to go in favor of the Shadow. Tam al'Thor was a Blademaster, yet he fared poorly and another example is the attack on the Stone in TSR.

 

Faile.....She did what needed to be done but it was still wrong. I don't know how Perrin will react to that if she finds out. One point: Masema notes that there were men with Faile, the ones with the bows. If so, that means there were Two Rivers men, which means, Perrin might find out. Also, I definitely think Masema was unknowingly touched by the Shadow in the past. It'd also make sense if he was given the power to influence people and draw them to his side.

 

Rodel Ituralde is amazing. His battle elevated him to second on my list of greatest military commanders in the WoT. Just ingenious. That's one scene I hope to see in a WoT movie.

 

Yes, I was surprised about Mishima. I think that as these last books go on, we're going to see a lot of characters that we like die. It gives me chills just thinking about who...

 

I don't think that what Faile did was wrong at all. Masema needed killin'. I haven't been one of Faile's bigger fans (in fact, I've always found her to be HIGHLY annoying) but this one act redeems a lot of her previous stupidity in my eyes. I personally thought that Perrin should have killed Masema a long time ago -- but he's too honorable for that sort of thing. Faile grew up in the courts -- she knows a dangerous enemy when she sees one. Perrin has too much tendency to look at the good in people. Not that that's a bad quality in and of itself -- it's one of the things I like about Perrin -- but there comes a time when someone is too much of a danger (to you, to your loved ones, to the world) when you just gotta kill 'em. I'm not saying that it is fun -- but I would trade the life of one to save the lives of hundreds pretty much any day of the week. Masema was a danger to THOUSANDS.