Is the second half of the series what you envisioned?

[wavemistresstrammell]

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

*Laughs* I don't know about a Bela joke... but a joke period would be nice haha.

[Balefire to da face!]

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

 

Why surely you mean kneecaps....though that would do for a good nickname for Ares, me thinks. As in, "Quick, put away your Bela jokes...here comes the knee cop!".

 

wavemistresstrammell: First off, a PM is a private message. It's an option to send a message specifically to a user instead of posting it for all to see. Ark was trying to keep this thread from going even further off topic(which I have a feeling may be inevitable at this point).

 

Second off: A nun walks into a bar.

 

And says, "Ow!".

 

Ta da!

[wavemistresstrammell]

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

 

Why surely you mean kneecaps....though that would do for a good nickname for Ares, me thinks. As in, "Quick, put away your Bela jokes...here comes the knee cop!".

 

wavemistresstrammell: First off, a PM is a private message. It's an option to send a message specifically to a user instead of posting it for all to see. Ark was trying to keep this thread from going even further off topic(which I have a feeling may be inevitable at this point).

 

Second off: A nun walks into a bar.

 

And says, "Ow!".

 

Ta da!

Haha yeah I figured out  what Pm was when I saw something Luckers posted somewhere else *Laughs* I'm so glad people don't expect anything else but ditziness from me... they would be very disappointed haha.

I've heard that joke haha.

 

This one my brother-in-law always loves doing. He and my husband used to get together a bunch of different local bands and they would all play a show at their dad's house. He always started off the show with the same exact joke no matter that everyone had already heard it.

 

Two muffins are in an oven. One muffin turns to the other and says, "Man it's hot in here." The other muffin yells "OY MY GOD! IT'S A TALKING MUFFIN!"

 

Yes I know... corny but still makes me chuckle thinking of all the good times we had at those shows.

[OptimusPrime]

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

 

Open the flood gates!

 

Bela: And now for my last trick! Is this your card?

Blind Man: I dont know

Bela: Was it a RED card?

Blind Man: I dont know what red is

Bela: Ta dah!

[Arkelias]

Wavemistress, you've now called me a jerkwad, rude and a jackass.  I'd very much appreciate it if you stopped with the personal insults, as I haven't used any towards you, nor will I.  They are exactly what caused the problem in the first place.  Regardless of what you believe of me doesn't responding in such a manner make you as bad or worse?

 

The only comment I made about any of your posts was your response to Ares.  I haven't said you were wrong on your opinion about the series, or attacked anyone else's.  I've asked that people support their assertations with facts, which isn't unreasonable.  I've also asked that people be civil, which Ares hand't been and is why I got upset in the first place.  Please stop trying to defend his behavior.

 

If you feel the chapters about Perrin were good (or bad) great!  That's the sort of discussion I'm interesting in having.  I want to talk about the books, not about why I'm not qualified to talk about the books.  That's what Ares was suggesting, and has no place on these boards.  Everyone should be allowed their opinion here. I don't feel that's unreasonable, and in fact that's why these boards exist.  To promote discussion just like that.

 

Ares told me that the implicit promise doesn't exist.  Not only did he say that, but he was an ass about it.  He was condescending and basically called me an idiot as if I'd just made it up.

 

The promise most definitely exists, and those who've taken writing courses or have read books on writing are aware of it.  I don't expect anyone who's not taken a writing course to know about it.  However, if you haven't taken a course and are trying to tell me it doesn't exist don't you think that's rather silly?

 

Of course I'm going to take him to task for that, because I know for a fact that it does exist.  Why would I let him tell me otherwise when A) He is wrong and B) He was condescending in the way he told me?  My responses have been directed to him, not you and I'm not sure why you've gotten so upset o.O

 

You said:

You know, this is the only way I get to relax and have fun, I'm living in a completely different state where I don't know anyone. My entire family lives 1200 miles away from me, and I have 2 kids. People like you are taking the only place, where I felt that I could actually enjoy talking to people, away from me.

 

I know what isolation is like after such a big move, and I'm sorry to hear about that.  I'm also sorry that you feel I'm taking this place away from you.  Why that's the case I'm not sure.  You have the option to not respond to my posts, and if you do want to respond to them if you keep it civil I will do the same (that would mean no more Jackass / Jerkwad comments please).

 

I took a few minutes to re-read my posts in this thread.  I honestly just don't see where I was rude.  My tone didn't change until I was directly attacked by Ares.  I said I was leaving the boards, and he said good riddance and that my arguments were crap.  Then you congratulated him and said you loved his posts and that they made you laugh.

 

If that had happened to you how would you have responded? 

 

Like you I'm just looking for good conversation.  I don't want drama and I don't want to hurt people's feelings.  But I am not a punching bag, and if you try to make me into one you've seen the sort of responses you'll get.  The same holds doubly true for Ares.

 

Treat me with respect and I'm more than happy to grant you the same courtesy.  I respect your opinion's about these books, and if you have something you'd like to debate then by all means lets do so.

 

In closing:

 

'You're wrong, fool!' = bad

'I disagree because X' = good

 

 

I think this thread needs a Bela joke to relieve the tension. *checks knee cops*

 

I now return to your regularly scheduled Bela jokes.

[wavemistresstrammell]

First off, I was kidding when I called you a jerkwad.

 

Why'd I get upset? *Shrugs* It felt like you were attacking me also because I agreed with most of what he said.

 

It felt like you were attacking me for my opinion, just like you misunderstood half of the things I ment in some of my posts (won't get into that),I believe I misunderstood what you were saying. You kinda have a... for lack of better word, pompous way of saying things and it makes it seem like you're being critical of what others are saying.

 

And what in the world is this promise you keep talking about?! I saw it forever back a couple of pages ago but my children are giving me hell right now so I'll look at it later.

 

And I wasn't laughing at you, these was one thing I was laughing about where he was saying he was wonderful... that comment. I just had time to skim and find it so forgive me for not going more in depth.

 

Honestly if someone said they think it would be nice to see me go I'd do what everyone doesn't want me to do and stay... like I have already.

 

I've been pretty much civil, it's just for some reason most of what I said you don't find civil. The only thing I said that could be taken the wrong way is telling you you're being rude and the whole jackass thing. Other than that I fail to see what I'm doing that's so offensive. Hopefully we can get along but it seems to me we're going to clash regardless due to personality differences. I take pretty much everythign as a joke and you're extremely serious when it comes to this... not a match made in heaven but we can make it work I think.

[Arkelias]

Now I'm pompous too? =(

 

Man, I can't win with you.  In this case I was being critical and intentionally condescending, just not of your posts.  I try to keep a good attitude and be as respectful as possible, but when someone disrespects me I tend to reply in kind.  My tone is a perfect match for Ares, and that's not accidental.

 

What I don't understand is why you'd consider my posts pompous, but his are peachy and friendly.  That doesn't jive, accept maybe because you happen to share his opinion.  Do you honestly think he was respectful in his posts?  Seriously? o.O

 

Like I said though, I knew my opinion wouldn't be popular here and I expect a fair amount of flak for the stances I take.  I don't like the later books and I feel like Jordan lost his way.  That automatically makes me a target for about 85% of the people on these boards, and honestly was why I had said I was going to leave.

 

Being a lightning rod is a lot less fun than being the lightning.  I decided to stay because of what some of the people here had to say, and because of several emails I got from members on the board.

 

I also notice that not a single mod touched any of my posts despite their tone, which was a pleasant surprise. 

 

In regards to your posts, by and large they are civil but you mix in enough insults to irk me *shrugs*.  Honestly?  They come across as condescending, though not as much as Mr. Ares.

 

You asked what the promise is.  Here, read this:

 

http://dorireads.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-august-i-am-planning-to-attend.html

 

Its not the best explanation I've seen, but it was the first one on Google.  She does a decent job of getting across the promise a writer makes when he tells a story.  Its a sort of unspoken agreement you make with your readers when you first set out on a tale.

 

It's important because when you break that promise you lose your readers.  They subconsciously expect certain things, and if they don't get them they quickly get upset.  There have been entire books written about this promise, and about the rules of writing.

 

Some authors get away with breaking a few.  Most pay the price if they ignore them, and RJ is no exception.  No matter what you believe about the later books I think everyone is aware of how much they are reviled by a large portion of his former fans.  It's not accidental that nearly every person who dislikes the later books stopped liking the series at the same point.

 

Almost everyone says the last good book was five, and some will say six.  Book 7 was the first one to really break the promise, which is why almost everyone who left the series did so by that point.

 

I know people who are avid fantasy readers.  They love Martin, Williams and Hobb to name a few.  All of them discovered the WoT when I did, back in the mid 90s.  None made it past book seven, and if you bring up the series they'll flare up into a tirade almost immediately.

 

That sort of passion comes from how well Jordan wove his tale initially, and how amazing he made his world.  The concept of Aes Sedai, the Dragon Reborn, the one power, the White Tower, the borderlands, the Dark One, the Age of Legends...they were all so masterfully crafted.

 

People were swept away by the tale initially, and we desperately wanted to find the end of that tale.  We wanted to see the kids from Edmond's Field build up to Tarmon Gaidon, and then fight and win the last battle.  We wanted to see them become powerful Aes Sedai and Ashaman and generals.

 

We did not want to see the PoV of every Aes Sedai in the tower.  In giving them to us RJ stripped away the mystery and wonder of his world.  No longer were the Aes Sedai incredibly powerful women who made the world dance.  No, now they were a bunch of catty women who argued over trivial things and made stupid decisions despite the looming last battle.

 

We wanted to see our heroes triumph, not be blasted into uselessness like Rand has been.  He's a cripple in so many ways I've almost lost count.  He's lost a hand, has two wounds that won't heal, is going insane despite the taint being cleansed and can't channel anymore because of the dizziness and the fear that LT will seize it if he tries.

 

The implicit promise is that the heroes of our tale will face many dangers, but they will ultimately triumph.  If you subscribe to Joseph Campbell's myth of the hero you know that most epics are broken into three parts.  Star Wars is the best known example of this so I'll use that to explain.

 

In Star Wars Luke leaves his safe secure home to venture into a wider world.  He learns how to use the force and grows stronger.  He gathers allies and sees fantastic things he never dreamed of (Battling the death star for example).

 

In Empire Strikes back our heroes get their asses kicked by the Empire.  This is the phase where the hero learns he is not immortal, and that he can make mistakes.  He learns and grows from this but goes through painful experiences.

 

In the final chapter, Return of the Jedi, our hero returns and whoops large amounts of ass.  He accomplishes the quest he's had since the beginning of the book.  He topples the empire, or in Rand's case wins Tarmon Gaidon.

 

The problem we have with the WoT is that we got Star Wars, then we got Empire Strikes Back and then we got another five episodes of Empire Strikes Back.  Our heroes are supposed to be winning, but instead they are still fumbling about making mistakes after mistake.  Bad things continue to happen to them instead of them moving into Return of the Jedi and beginning to triumph against the Shadow.

 

Many, many people subconsciously expected the hero myth.  We've wanted Return of the Jedi for a long time, and are just plain tired of Empire Strikes Back.  Does that explain a bit better, wavemistress?

 

See, if you ask questions and/or want to talk about the books the discussions are much more fun =)

[wavemistresstrammell]

I did say for lack of a better word. I never said he wasn't being pompous either, we stopped talking about him and about how we felt we offended each other. I'm not seeing how I was condescending but if you think I was then there's nothing I can do about it because I'm honestly not seeing it *shrugs*

 

As for the promise... I think he enjoyed writing the series to much to quit a couple of books back. I see where you're coming from, I really do, but I enjoyed the whole series. Yes, some things are hard to read, I won't lie, but as a whole I was satisfied with it. Perhaps you're having problems with it because you're in writing classes and know what to do and what not to do?

[Arkelias]

Well bear in mind text is a difficult medium for communication.  There is very little emotion in text, so readers tend to add their own.  You're probably not trying to be condescending, that's just how I took it.  The same way you said I came across as pompous when that's not what I meant. 

 

Eh, it happens and I'm not going to worry about it.  The important thing is intention.  You didn't mean to come across that way so I'll chalk it up to me misreading things. 

 

In regards to the series don't get me wrong, I still like every book accept for Crossroads of Twilight.  I have issues with the latter half of the series, but there were great moments too.  Rand cleansing the source, Tuon's chapter, the Egwene chapter in KoD, Lan riding across the borderlands nad Nyneave spreading the word of his return...you get the idea.

 

I'll be loyal until the end and I will keep each and every book in the WoT on my shelf.  Before I die I'll read the series more than once, I'm sure.  Even the horrible books like CoT.

 

Studying writing does make me more critical of a text than I used to be.  In this case it didn't cause my frustration with the series, but it did help me understand why I was frustrated.

 

I got that way back when book seven came out.  Then three years later when book eight came out it got a little worse, I was more frustrated and a little bit more angry.  Then three years later when book nine came out...you get the idea.  The long wait between books, and the lacklustber books that came out are really why I think I remain so critical of the series second half. 

 

I often wonder if I found the books for the first time today if I'd have the same opinion or if I'd be more forgiving?  Hard to say I guess.

[wavemistresstrammell]

Good so now that's all resolved I hope ^.^

 

Yeah CoT was very difficult to read and so was PoD. Perhaps the fact I just started the series not long ago is part of the reason why I don't really have a problem with it. It's like... Harry Potter. I greatly enjoyed all the books until I got to beek seven. I was extremely disappointed with the last battle between Harry and Voldemort. It was over and done in like two seconds. I was so disappointed. 

 

So I see what you mean about sitting there and waiting for the next book and it's nothing like you thought. Perhaps I would feel the way you do if I had started reading the series back then, but alas, I didn't and I couldn't haha. I guess the only thing we can do is agree to disagree?

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Good so now that's all resolved I hope ^.^

 

Yeah CoT was very difficult to read and so was PoD. Perhaps the fact I just started the series not long ago is part of the reason why I don't really have a problem with it. It's like... Harry Potter. I greatly enjoyed all the books until I got to beek seven. I was extremely disappointed with the last battle between Harry and Voldemort. It was over and done in like two seconds. I was so disappointed. 

 

So I see what you mean about sitting there and waiting for the next book and it's nothing like you thought. Perhaps I would feel the way you do if I had started reading the series back then, but alas, I didn't and I couldn't haha. I guess the only thing we can do is agree to disagree?

 

 

Difficult to read? That's the best euphemism I've heard in a while.

[Arkelias]

I had no problem reading it.  I just had problems staying awake lol.

 

And yes Wavemistress.  All resolved.  I see you got my email too!

 

[wavemistresstrammell]

I had no problem reading it.  I just had problems staying awake lol.

 

And yes Wavemistress.  All resolved.  I see you got my email too!

 

Haha yeah I did too. All the other books I devoured and then I got to those books and I just couldn't read it all in a couple days like the other books. I had to force myself to read them.

 

Yes I got it ^.^ Haha

[wavemistresstrammell]

Good so now that's all resolved I hope ^.^

 

Yeah CoT was very difficult to read and so was PoD. Perhaps the fact I just started the series not long ago is part of the reason why I don't really have a problem with it. It's like... Harry Potter. I greatly enjoyed all the books until I got to beek seven. I was extremely disappointed with the last battle between Harry and Voldemort. It was over and done in like two seconds. I was so disappointed. 

 

So I see what you mean about sitting there and waiting for the next book and it's nothing like you thought. Perhaps I would feel the way you do if I had started reading the series back then, but alas, I didn't and I couldn't haha. I guess the only thing we can do is agree to disagree?

 

 

Difficult to read? That's the best euphemism I've heard in a while.

Your welcome? Haha

[Balefire to da face!]

Good so now that's all resolved I hope ^.^

 

Yeah CoT was very difficult to read and so was PoD. Perhaps the fact I just started the series not long ago is part of the reason why I don't really have a problem with it. It's like... Harry Potter. I greatly enjoyed all the books until I got to beek seven. I was extremely disappointed with the last battle between Harry and Voldemort. It was over and done in like two seconds. I was so disappointed. 

 

So I see what you mean about sitting there and waiting for the next book and it's nothing like you thought. Perhaps I would feel the way you do if I had started reading the series back then, but alas, I didn't and I couldn't haha. I guess the only thing we can do is agree to disagree?

 

 

Just coming to this message board, I can tell you that for a lot of people that's definately it. You probably would have felt a lot more at home here right around the time Crossroads came out Ark. Like I said, the majority of the posters around here were unhappy about the latter half of the series. I found myself defending it more then the other way around. In fact, I actually liked Crossroads. I found the low point of the series to be Path of Daggers, and I generally feel the series has improved since then. If by small steps. But yeah, many people seem to be a lot more forgiving now that we aren't going through the "wait 3 years to get a book where barely anything happens". It's a lot easier to forgive the bridge building parts of the series when you aren't waiting 3 years just to get those parts.

 

Oh, and wavemistress, ya know, I wasn't dissapointed by Harry's fight with Volde at all. I found the buildup to be more important then the actual battle itself. What I found a little dissapointing was that Harry never really became a hero. Dumbledore and, to a lesser extent, Hermione basically just pointed Harry in the direction he needed to go and Harry just went along. I still loved the series(particularly the last three) but felt Harry was one of the weaker heroes I've seen....

 

Oh, and thank you for that muffin joke....make me laugh :D

 

Stop me if you've heard this one...

 

A dog walks into an old west saloon with one of his arms in a sling, looks around, and says, "Which one of you shot my paw?".

 

And lets see, some stuff of interest from your post Arkelias...

 

Its not the best explanation I've seen, but it was the first one on Google.  She does a decent job of getting across the promise a writer makes when he tells a story.  Its a sort of unspoken agreement you make with your readers when you first set out on a tale.

 

It's important because when you break that promise you lose your readers.  They subconsciously expect certain things, and if they don't get them they quickly get upset.  There have been entire books written about this promise, and about the rules of writing.

 

We seem to disagree on several points. You feel that Jordan took the wrong direction with the series. I am ok with the direction he took, I just think he has made some mistakes(both in writing and plot) along the way.

 

For instance, as far as I am understanding the implicit promise you are talking about, I don't see it as Jordan having broken it. We very likely will still see it happen. It's just plain taken a lot longer(and more detours) then we thought it would.

 

Some authors get away with breaking a few.  Most pay the price if they ignore them, and RJ is no exception.  No matter what you believe about the later books I think everyone is aware of how much they are reviled by a large portion of his former fans.  It's not accidental that nearly every person who dislikes the later books stopped liking the series at the same point.

 

Almost everyone says the last good book was five, and some will say six.  Book 7 was the first one to really break the promise, which is why almost everyone who left the series did so by that point.

 

I know people who are avid fantasy readers.  They love Martin, Williams and Hobb to name a few.  All of them discovered the WoT when I did, back in the mid 90s.  None made it past book seven, and if you bring up the series they'll flare up into a tirade almost immediately.

 

Really? Hmm. Maybe it's just because I only know a handful of people in person who read the books, and this is the only site I visit, but I have not expirienced nearly that much negativity for the series.

 

I have rarely found a person who would claim the series went downhill after 5, in fact out of all the books I find that Lord of Chaos is often #1 on people's list for best book(personally mine is The Shadow Rising). And I wouldn't say the last good book was 5 or 6. They all have thier good qualities(other then maybe PoD *grumbles). The problem is that they are so loosely seperate books that it's hard to single them out. Dunno if it's been mentioned here yet, but I feel a big problem with the latter books is that the whole thing has become too much of a series. I enjoy am epic series, but when that series is released in books years apart, those books need to be more self contained then aCoS, PoD, and CoT where(even with Winter's Heart very cool and decisive ending there were still strings that tied way too much into the next book).

 

In fact, as I type this, it occurs to me just how rediculous the argument of Perrin's same storyline dragging on for three books really is. The fact that were are even having that argument shows that there is something wrong with the series! The same storyline should not drag on in a series of books for three entire books. Period. The storyline of a major character in a book should not go, what was it, 8 years without having any signifigant resolution. The fact that people would even defend that just shows there is something amiss.

 

But yeah, that said, I still wouldn't call the latter half of the series bad. Just flawed in some ways. 

 

That sort of passion comes from how well Jordan wove his tale initially, and how amazing he made his world.  The concept of Aes Sedai, the Dragon Reborn, the one power, the White Tower, the borderlands, the Dark One, the Age of Legends...they were all so masterfully crafted.

 

People were swept away by the tale initially, and we desperately wanted to find the end of that tale.  We wanted to see the kids from Edmond's Field build up to Tarmon Gaidon, and then fight and win the last battle.  We wanted to see them become powerful Aes Sedai and Ashaman and generals.

 

We did not want to see the PoV of every Aes Sedai in the tower.  In giving them to us RJ stripped away the mystery and wonder of his world.  No longer were the Aes Sedai incredibly powerful women who made the world dance.  No, now they were a bunch of catty women who argued over trivial things and made stupid decisions despite the looming last battle.

 

Again, I agree on the outcome, but not the approach. I like that we've gotten to see a deeper look into the White Tower. The idea of just focusing on the main characters and a few others seems very limiting and boring to me. The idea of not getting to see a Verin, Cadsuane, Alviarin, Elaida, or Liandrin PoV seems like it would take away from the books rather then add to them. I thought Siuan being deposed was one of the best moments in the series because it really shook things up, and took you to a place that you didn't think was possible. It gave depth and conflict to the thing that you thought was relitively solid and unified. The problem is in how overused it has become. In how slow it has progressed. In how little has happened.

 

Like I've said, unlike Elayne's Andor fiaco in the last couple of books I find the Salidar rebel storyline to be interesting. It just shouldn't have taken so long for things to get where they have.

 

We wanted to see our heroes triumph, not be blasted into uselessness like Rand has been.  He's a cripple in so many ways I've almost lost count.  He's lost a hand, has two wounds that won't heal, is going insane despite the taint being cleansed and can't channel anymore because of the dizziness and the fear that LT will seize it if he tries.

 

I think we've discussed this before, and you know I disagree with you here. I think you are having a bit of tunnel vision. In the big picture, we are still seeing Rand get his hand chopped off, to use the Star Wars metaphor. The redemption part is yet to come.

 

And while you may find this torture of the hero to be too long, too much, etc. I think it's appropriate. You can boil it down to just seeing it as Rand getting kicked in the crotch repeatedly, but there is more depth and texture to it then that. Rand has had his victories in there, small and large(yeah, I know, the latter have been few and far between...) and I think the more he struggles, the more signifigance it has.

 

The implicit promise is that the heroes of our tale will face many dangers, but they will ultimately triumph.  If you subscribe to Joseph Campbell's myth of the hero you know that most epics are broken into three parts.  Star Wars is the best known example of this so I'll use that to explain.

 

Yes, but sticking too strictly to that formula is cliche and boring as hell. Happily ever after is trite and shallow. As a reader, I will admit that I have expected from the beginning that the Dark One will "lose", and Rand will be the one to beat him, but I feel that everything else is up for grabs.  Implicit promise or not, any writer who isn't willing to shake things up isn't worth reading.

[Arkelias]

You probably would have felt a lot more at home here right around the time Crossroads came out Ark. Like I said, the majority of the posters around here were unhappy about the latter half of the series.

 

Despite being the bitter old man I am I'm definitely happy to hear that people have been more forgiving over time.  Its good to know that RJs legacy will have an ending, and that many people see the series as a whole in a favorable light.  It may have flaws but its still one hell of a story.

 

We seem to disagree on several points. You feel that Jordan took the wrong direction with the series. I am ok with the direction he took, I just think he has made some mistakes(both in writing and plot) along the way.

 

For instance, as far as I am understanding the implicit promise you are talking about, I don't see it as Jordan having broken it. We very likely will still see it happen. It's just plain taken a lot longer(and more detours) then we thought it would.

 

I think wrong direction is probably too harsh.  If we had fewer PoV characters and the story was exactly the same I'd be ok with it.  Its more than its drug on and on and on and not in ways I think helps the series.  Basically, shorten the middle (books 7-11) and give it a good ending and the series is great!

 

The implicit promise was shattered, in my opinion, when he changed the type of story he was telling.  Like Ares said though, rules are made to be broken.  Changing the tone and type of story you are telling midway was ballsy, and it worked to a degree.  Some people definitely like the change, and even I see some upsides to it.

 

Had he made it cleaner and less cluttered with extraneous characters I think he could have pulled it off, and I've never seen another author come as close as he did.  Most just fail at a feat of this nature.

 

Once we've seen the ending we'll finally have our answer.  If its very strong people will forgive the books in the middle.  A new reader won't have to wait years between volumes, either.  This should make them look a lot more favorably on the series.

 

Really? Hmm. Maybe it's just because I only know a handful of people in person who read the books, and this is the only site I visit, but I have not expirienced nearly that much negativity for the series.

 

A lot of this comes from having been a gamer for so long.  I run a lot of pen and paper games, and those who are into such things nearly always read fantasy.  I know at least a dozen people who discovered the WoT in the 90s, and many of us talk about it whenever a new book is released.  Most of those people will never pick up anything by RJ again =/

 

Its one of the reasons I post here.  Believe it or not among my friends I'm the guy pulling for the series!

 

I have rarely found a person who would claim the series went downhill after 5, in fact out of all the books I find that Lord of Chaos is often #1 on people's list for best book(personally mine is The Shadow Rising). And I wouldn't say the last good book was 5 or 6.

 

I'd agree about Lord of Chaos.  I loved it.  For some reason many people seemed to dislike it, at least among the reviews on Amazon.  For me the ones after weren't all horrible, at least until PoD, but they were mediocre at best.  Book 11 I'd put on par with book 5 or 6.

 

 

Dunno if it's been mentioned here yet, but I feel a big problem with the latter books is that the whole thing has become too much of a series. I enjoy am epic series, but when that series is released in books years apart, those books need to be more self contained then aCoS, PoD, and CoT where(even with Winter's Heart very cool and decisive ending there were still strings that tied way too much into the next book).

 

I'd completely agree.  Plots spanning multiple books is a large part of the problem.  Two books can happen with a storyline, but stretching four storylines over three books made it really hard for the reader to stay interested.  As the reader we crave the 'pay off' of plot resolution.  Deny us that too long and we start to get angry.

 

 

In fact, as I type this, it occurs to me just how rediculous the argument of Perrin's same storyline dragging on for three books really is. The fact that were are even having that argument shows that there is something wrong with the series! The same storyline should not drag on in a series of books for three entire books. Period. The storyline of a major character in a book should not go, what was it, 8 years without having any signifigant resolution. The fact that people would even defend that just shows there is something amiss.

 

I also agree with this statement.  Perrin's storyline and Elayne's storyline both dragged on far too long.  They were boring for that reason.  If both were shorter I think a lot more people would have been more forgiving.  Had Perrin chasing Faile been the thrust of one book, and Elayne taking Andor in another the series would have been better received I think.

 

I was one of those poor saps who waited for each book to come out.  Imagine if Path of Daggers was your reward after a three year wait.  You suck it up and pick up book nine after three more years, you see the true source cleansed but the rest of the book drive you nutes.  Then, after another three years we get Crossroads of Twilight?  I still remember the string of explicatives when I finished that book for the first time.

 

But yeah, that said, I still wouldn't call the latter half of the series bad. Just flawed in some ways.

 

I'd call it comparatively bad.  It certainly wasn't as good as the first half, and it does suffer from flaws.  I still think it was worth reading despite my complaints.  I just wish it was better, because I see how it could have been.

 

Its a lot like Lucas and the new Star Wars movies.  The new trilogy is ok, but when compared to the originals there's no contest.

 

Yes, but sticking too strictly to that formula is cliche and boring as hell. Happily ever after is trite and shallow. As a reader, I will admit that I have expected from the beginning that the Dark One will "lose", and Rand will be the one to beat him, but I feel that everything else is up for grabs.  Implicit promise or not, any writer who isn't willing to shake things up isn't worth reading.

 

Adhering too closely can be boring, I agree.  However, changing the forumla by repeatedly gimping your main characters wasn't the best way to break the mold in my opinion. 

 

As a good writer you need to shake things up, but shake them up too much and your story is too disjointed.

 

Great post Balefire!  You raised a lot of good points.

[Bob T Dwarf]

After reading LoC was when I took my 9+ year break from the series.

 

Not because I found it to be a bad book, but because it became very apparent that Jordan wasn't going to get to the point anytime soon.  I didn't resume reading the series until CoT came out, so I was spared much of the sense of betrayal others felt by waiting 3 years each for books that contained no real payoff.  I just suffered through them in quick succession and then kicked myself for having jumped back in too soon.

 

However, having taken that break, I found that I had forgotten too many important details, and no longer knew how things fit together.  So, I re-read the first 6 books to get completely back up-to-speed.  That just emphasized how lost and confused Jordan had become during books 7-10.  In comparison to the first 6, those books are truly awful.  A 200 page synopsis that spared us all the tortured and confused path the story followed rather than the actual books would have been a godsend.  Then, maybe, Jordan would have had the time and space to properly set up his "gasp" moment in KoD.  He likely would have had the time to finish the series himself.

 

For someone who comes to the series for the first time in 2011 when it will hopefully be complete and who can read the entire series in a single go, those "nothing to see here" middle books won't feel quite so painful. They'll likely experience those books and the series as-a-whole far more favorably than those of us who have been waiting to see the resolution since 1991.

 

Jordan at least understood the implicit contract well enough that he left enough notes and recordings and actual pages that Sanderson will be able to finish the series as Jordan intended and as all of us have paid dearly in time and money to see.

 

Roger Zelasny, for all that I love his writing, didn't have that understanding, and thus his Amber series, wonderful as it is, remains unfinished due to his unexpected death.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Amber is a perfect example for this argument. great story, great author, readers get shafted. hard. WOT...great story, great author, readers have been chomping at the for a couple years at a time waiting for the next book, then were disappointed with the book and we wait a couple more years for another book, etc.

 

dont get me wrong im a die hard fan and wont quit on the series til aMoL is done and whatever other outrigger and prequel novels harriet and tor decide on are written, but ive been cyclically frustrated since cos came out in oh 96. kod was definitely more the caliber of the earlier novels, but it didnt make up for the 4 books in between.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Throughout the first half I fantasized with the idea of the three Ta'veren being the Lights equivalent of the Chosen, that later on there would be a more obvious Forsaken vs Taveren thing. The Forsaken know exactly how important Mat and Perrin are, yet in the second half they show both the bare minimum attention. In KoD when Moridin tells the Forsaken that Mat and Perrin are primary objectives, I just thought "Well, this is a bit late." Sure, they have the let the Lord of Chaos rule order, but why dont they make any major moves against Mat and Perrin when even the Myrrdraal knew their importance from book one? I understand that the Forsaken are way overestimated, but I thought by now there would have been more Shadow attention on the other two Ta'veren, way before KoD.

 

Ok, I did not read all eight pages of this thread so I apologize if I am repeating anything that has already been said.  However, I feel the need to point out that the Myrrdraal did not know the importance of Mat and Perrin since TEotW.  They persued all three boys because The Shadow knew that one of them was the Dragon Reborn.  Once it was determined that Rand was TDR is seems they initially disregarded Mat and Perrin and did not realize their importance until much later.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

No, the second half is not what I envisioned because about the time I started reading "The Shadow Rising" I though I was entering the second half of the series.  I had no clue when I began reading the series in 1993 that it would become a 14 volume monster. 

 

As to the huge battle scene you are craving I think that you are going to get it.  Remember that the proposed title for book 14 was "Tarmon Giadon" (though it was ultimately decided that this book will be title "A Memory of Light.") and to me this seems to imply that most if not all of this book will chronicle the events that take place during the last battle.  I predict that the pouring of Trollocs from the blight will begin at the end of ToM and provide the cliff hanger leading into the final volume. 

[wavemistresstrammell]

Oh, and wavemistress, ya know, I wasn't dissapointed by Harry's fight with Volde at all. I found the buildup to be more important then the actual battle itself. What I found a little dissapointing was that Harry never really became a hero. Dumbledore and, to a lesser extent, Hermione basically just pointed Harry in the direction he needed to go and Harry just went along. I still loved the series(particularly the last three) but felt Harry was one of the weaker heroes I've seen....

I was just expecting you know someone to lose a limb or something or see something actually happen. And I agree... Harry was pointed in the right direction to much. She kind of made him kind of... dumb isn't the word I would use but I will because I can't think of a better word right now ha.

 

Oh, and thank you for that muffin joke....make me laugh :D

 

Stop me if you've heard this one...

 

A dog walks into an old west saloon with one of his arms in a sling, looks around, and says, "Which one of you shot my paw?".

Haha no problem. I've never heard that joke before but I'm telling everyone I know haha.

 

In fact, as I type this, it occurs to me just how rediculous the argument of Perrin's same storyline dragging on for three books really is. The fact that were are even having that argument shows that there is something wrong with the series! The same storyline should not drag on in a series of books for three entire books. Period. The storyline of a major character in a book should not go, what was it, 8 years without having any signifigant resolution. The fact that people would even defend that just shows there is something amiss.

Hey no fair, I defended it ha. Like I said before, I acknowledge that waiting that long for a resolution sucked, but I just started reading the series not that long ago so of course it wasn't as bad for me as it was for everyone who started reading the series when it first came out.

 

Like I've said, unlike Elayne's Andor fiaco in the last couple of books I find the Salidar rebel storyline to be interesting. It just shouldn't have taken so long for things to get where they have.

Agree ^.^ I can't wait to see the outcome of that whole situation. The SAS actually seem to be doing something while the WT Aes Sedai are arguing over whos Ajah is better.

 

 

 

[wavemistresstrammell]

Ok, I did not read all eight pages of this thread so I apologize if I am repeating anything that has already been said.  However, I feel the need to point out that the Myrrdraal did not know the importance of Mat and Perrin since TEotW.  They persued all three boys because The Shadow knew that one of them was the Dragon Reborn. Once it was determined that Rand was TDR is seems they initially disregarded Mat and Perrin and did not realize their importance until much later.

Forgive my ignorance but I can't recall if they did or didn't know Mat and Perrin were Ta'veren. Does anyone remember?

[Arkelias]

Forgive my ignorance but I can't recall if they did or didn't know Mat and Perrin were Ta'veren. Does anyone remember?

 

They did not, or if they did none of the viewpoints we were given access to suggested it.  Everything we saw suggested they were still just trying to figure out which one was the Dragon.

 

I actually liked most of the Salidar storyline.  It was the WT hunt for the black ajah that I felt really could be cut.  The one where the Aes Sedai sitters force other sisters to swear on the oath rod while they hunt.  It was one of many subplots I think could have been either abbreviated or cut entirely.

 

Of course what made the Salidar story interesting was Egwene, Nyneave and Elayne.  Storylines that don't involve someone from Edmond's field generally tend to lose me.  Chapters like Tuon's are still great because they are around characters we know and love.

 

Being introduced to fifteen Aes Sedai we've never seen before, and having them all basically be the same person (Shrill, shrewish and a bully) got old and made it hard to keep them all straight from book to book.

[Iwillfinishcollegefirst]

Hey, haven't posted before but have read for many years to ease the break in between books. Arkelias, I think you're spot on with a lot of what you've said. Those three books always feel like one really long and expensive book when I'm re-reading the series. It always seemed to help me get through them by reminding myself that they were in fact one long book-- culminating with the cleansing.

I found that I did enjoy them a lot more when reading them together-- it maybe that you're right and a lot of fat could've been skimmed off the meat, though there are some side points that more than likely will be relevant later in the books (like the ba hunters). That fat killed some of the grandeur to me. Especially the aes sedai. they used to seem so much deeper but now...God >.< i'm looking forward to salting of the tower grounds.

A lot of my friends bailed on the series during the books 7-10 era. I never could- I'd been reading them since I was in the 6th grade and have since done my time in the army, and am almost done with my BA. I remember getting Crossroads of Twilight while I was stationed in Kosovo and thinking how fitting it was, reading that book in a country so seeming paused in its own development.

 

And no matter how good KoD was, it was kind of jarring to jump right in and have so much happen after the tedious wait, ya know? Eh, it got all back on track  but it felt a little turbulent to me.

 

[redbj]

no Mr ares yet?